Purely as a thought exercise as I have no proof of any of it:
Could Bolton be SO mad at Trump that he is finally the person that Trump tried to step on and smear that has the guts (and the goods) to shine a bright light on Trump's shady dealings?
It takes one with both to finally crack through.
Cohen had too much going against him legally to do it.
Bolton, no matter how much I disagree with him politically, knows what happened and *IF* he's willing to go under oath and spill the beans and connect the dots could that be devastating enough to turn the minions?
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(01-27-2020, 11:31 AM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, like the faux "outrage" from the gop over it.
Got it.
I'm just not buying they were ssooooosoooooo offended by that they will NOW ignore everything else. It's all just BS. They would have had some other "reason" if it wasn't for that.
(01-27-2020, 11:33 AM)GMDino Wrote: The gop is ssooooooooosoooooo upset about one line. That's laughable.
24 hours of testimony was being ignored no matter what Schiff said and I won't justify this fake outrage with hours of debate.
They don't like it. They said they didn't like it. It is no excuse to ignore their duties.
Be sensible. It's not a good strategy when Shifty gets up there and speaks garbage and grossly exaggerates, lies or misrepresents his views of so-called facts. To me, that just reinforces my opinion that this has all been a sham in the first place. But the biggest laughable part about all this IMO is that the Dems target in all this has been the democratic voters, as if they're trying to prove they haven't wasted the last 3 yrs solely witch hunting the president and not serving the american people. I think this whole thing has hurt the dems much more than they realize.
I'm sure the dems will eventually get Trump because, well, he's a doer and not a do nothing lying politician. Plus, he can't stay off Twitter long enough to let people cool down. But this impeachment will not be the time you get him.
(01-27-2020, 01:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: Purely as a thought exercise as I have no proof of any of it:
Could Bolton be SO mad at Trump that he is finally the person that Trump tried to step on and smear that has the guts (and the goods) to shine a bright light on Trump's shady dealings?
I think it's possible.
But I also think he might just want to be in the headlines. Even if some say he ain't the type. I guess he sure is the type. How else did he get known. How else does he run his superPAC.
So he might just be a witness, but then claim there's executive privilege and not care about Trump's fate at all, just creating some more fuzz about himself.
One thing about many professional republicans, they are strategic. I'm not sure if a heart-felt notion like "I'm mad" superseeds that. It generally doesn't. In that sense, I guess he would contribute to Trump's fall if the tides (poll numbers, polling amongs potential supporters, general mood in the party etc. etc.) turn that way. If not, then see above.
Imho.
(01-27-2020, 02:03 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I'm sure the dems will eventually get Trump because, well, he's a doer and not a do nothing lying politician.
I wish I could resist, but one, one tiny thing about that. You do realize that Trump literally lies all the time about all kinds of matters large or small.
Which is not a matter of opinion or the media one consumes. He just lies all the time. You do see that, do you?
(01-27-2020, 02:14 PM)hollodero Wrote: I wish I could resist, but one, one tiny thing about that. You do realize that Trump literally lies all the time about all kinds of matters large or small.
Which is not a matter of opinion or the media one consumes. He just lies all the time. You do see that, do you?
Also, if you do things that violate US and/or international law or are abuses of power, then being a "doer" isn't exactly a good thing.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(01-27-2020, 02:14 PM)hollodero Wrote: He just lies all the time. You do see that, do you?
No - sorry, I just don't. I think some have chosen hate over dislike for him. Well, at that point there's no turning back and regardless if he saved a baby from a burning building, he would be called a liar and that it never happened or it would be twisted into "Trump threw a baby into a burning building, which is where most of the media is now. You do see that, don't you?
(01-27-2020, 03:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: No - sorry, I just don't. I think some have chosen hate over dislike for him. Well, at that point there's no turning back and regardless if he saved a baby from a burning building, he would be called a liar and that it never happened or it would be twisted into "Trump threw a baby into a burning building, which is where most of the media is now. You do see that, don't you?
This isn't a matter of perspective. This is a matter of Trump has lied about objective facts countless times to the American public. Hell, there is a tweet linked to in this thread just today that is a provable lie from Trump.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
A portion of the recording shows Trump in frame of the video, which was filmed at a private dinner on April 30, 2018, PBS reported. The recording also picked up Trump telling his associates to “get rid” of then-Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch, adding that they needed to “take her out.”
Lev Parnas, an indicted associate of Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, was at the dinner when Trump made these claims and a voice that appears to be his can be heard during the recording.
“The biggest problem there, I think where we need to start is we got to get rid of the ambassador,” Parnas can be heard saying in the video, adding that Yovanovitch is “telling everybody” Trump is going to get impeached.
“Get rid of her! Get her out tomorrow,” Trump replies. “I don’t care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. OK? Do it.”
The release of the video recording confirms that Trump indeed called for Yovanovitch’s ouster, as suggested by reports from ABC News and MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow on Friday.
It also sheds more light on Trump’s efforts to attack Yovanovitch and push her out of her post. While sitting presidents have the privilege to appoint and fire U.S. ambassadors, Yovanovitch testified to Congress last year that she felt threatened by the president and was a target of an unprecedented smear campaign against her reputation by the administration.
She was eventually recalled from her ambassadorship in May 2019, a year after the video published on Saturday was recorded.
About 39 minutes into the footage, Trump also expresses surprise that Ukraine produces oil, and wonders how long Ukraine would last in a war with Russia.
“Ukraine has oil,” he says. “Ukraine? How come ― they don’t have any money? Why aren’t companies going in, too risky?”
Others respond that Ukraine is protected because other countries know it has support from the U.S., which Trump answers by complaining about European countries’ lack of support for Ukraine, echoing statements he’s made in public.
“It’s always us that has to support everybody,” Trump says. “And then you wonder, why isn’t Germany supporting? Why isn’t others?”
Trump then asks how long would Ukraine “last in a fight with Russia?”
A voice replies, “without us, not very long.”
Then someone says, “30 seconds.”
On Friday night, Bondy told Maddow that Parnas was the one who replied to that question from Trump.
Quote: Rachel Maddow MSNBC
@maddow
Striking moment in the tape.
President Trump asks how long Ukraine would last in its war w/Russia.
JUST IN: Full audio obtained by @NBCNews of what Parnas attorney says is donor dinner with Trump includes what appears to be Trump asking how long Ukraine would last against Russia, told "without us, not very long" 42.1K 5:48 PM - Jan 25, 2020 Twitter Ads info and privacy
20.3K people are talking about this
[url=https://twitter.com/maddow/status/1221203099534139392]
In the footage, Trump also spoke at length about beating Hilary Clinton in the 2016 presidential race, then said he would have had an even easier time beating President Barack Obama in his 2012 race.
“Obama would have been easier, second term,” Trump can be heard saying. “[GOP nominee Mitt] Romney should have never lost. Obama would have been much easier.”
Igor Fruman, another associate of Giuliani’s, filmed the recording, according to PBS News. In October, Fruman was indicted along with Parnas on campaign finance charges for allegedly making straw donations and funneling foreign money into Trump’s presidential campaign.
Watch the full recording here:
But Trump doesn't lie.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(01-27-2020, 03:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: No - sorry, I just don't. I think some have chosen hate over dislike for him. Well, at that point there's no turning back and regardless if he saved a baby from a burning building, he would be called a liar and that it never happened or it would be twisted into "Trump threw a baby into a burning building, which is where most of the media is now. You do see that, don't you?
H-Dog you don't dispute that Trump said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away it, do you? He said that, not Bernie Sanders or Ted Cruz. What is the character of someone who would say that as a brag? Surely that is a way of saying I am not bounded by the law.
Before he was president, projects like Trump university and the Trump foundation, both dissolved in legal scandal, establish his readiness to sell by lying. The successful suits and dissolution are legal facts.
It is a fact that he has suffered multiple bankruptcies in businesses where he has stiffed investors. He could no longer get loans in the US. Yet his supporters ignore all that and insist he is a successful businessman.
You don't dispute that he paid off a porn star, do you? He lied to us and Melania for years about that. You don't dispute the money was funneled through his campaign apparatus by a "fixer" do you? Do you think that Elizabeth Warren has a fixer to clean up legal messes? Or Mitt Romney?
And after the Mueller Report confirmed that he had lied to obstruct and ordered others to lie, his AG said "nothing there" no wrongdoing. In an interview he said he would take dirt on an opponent of so offered by another government--though that is illegal.
Now his supporters see no wrongdoing when, right after the Mueller Report, he cuts off aid to Ukraine and asks for a "favor." And threatens an Ambassador and Adam Schiff.
So why isn't the opposite of what you say true? If Trump threw a baby into a burning building, it would be very difficult to prosecute him. Fox and friends would attribute any attempted prosecution to "hate" and claims the Dem have been out to get him from day one, while just mentioning the baby's parents were Democrats. AG Barr would remind us that it is his view that it is not possible to prosecute a sitting president for any crime--something no AG has ever maintained before as a legal doctrine.
Isn't it more accurate to say that claiming others just "hate" Trump is a way of ignoring the many lies he tells, his vulgarity, and the illegal things he does, as if all that stuff were made up--and not the a result of Trump's actual behavior. "Even if 22 women had not accused Trump of sexual assault, the Dems would still say he was a sexual predator."
Why isn't it reasonable to suppose that if people have "chosen" to hate Trump it is for the same reason they have chosen to hate any liar/grifter--but in this case it is one in charge of US policy, someone who can really break government. The real question is, why would one "choose" NOT to hate him. Why ignore or overlook the lies, vulgarity, and damage to government? Where is the short term or long term advantage? What advantage for the country?
(01-27-2020, 03:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: No - sorry, I just don't. I think some have chosen hate over dislike for him.
That is not mutually exclusive. He still lies. And even though you made that a media perspective thing again, it is not a media perspective thing, but a reality thing.
You have seen him drawing a fictious hurricane path so his former wrong statement is justified. You saw that, right. You know it was not CNN doctoring the image. It was Trump drawing false hurricane paths. Just so.
And this is not a singulary incident. It's pretty much a daily incident. And only time restrictions and space restrictions avoid me making a somewhat complete list of daily Trump lies. Take a taste though.
"Those tax cuts don't help me, they cost me a fortune"
"I do not know Lev Parnas"
"this was the biggest inauguration crowd ever"
"Thousands and thousands of Muslims in NJ cheered at 9/11"
"Finland's prime minister told me they rake the forest floors to avoid forest fire"
"The house never asked Bolton to testify"
"I don't know about a payment to Stormy Daniels"
"The doctor wraps up the child, then he goes back to the mother and they decide if they should execute the baby"
"Hi, I'm John Miller, I work for Donald Trump and Madonna wants to date him"
"My people are in Hawaii investigating Obama's birth certificate, and they cannot believe what they're finding"
"I don't know David Duke"
"Obama wiretapped me, sick guy"
"I never fired Comey because of Russia"
"No obstruction, complete and total exoneration"
"China pays the tariffs, not the consumers"
"Our real unemployment rate is as high as 35%, I recently heard 42%"
"When I said Tim Apple, I said Tim Cook - Apple and the Cook was so fast it couldn't be heard"
"There were 5 million illegal Hillary voters. California admits to 1 million"
"Obama had a separation policy. I brought the families together"
"Article 2 gives me the right to do whatever I want"
"The Japanese let a bowling ball fall on our cars to test them"
"They say windmill noise causes cancer"
"I got Veterans Choice passed"
"Omar said that al-Qaida makes her proud"
"India will be allowed to double its coal production, China can build as many coal plants as they want, and we have to get rid of them"
"Ukraine has the DNC server"
"I never called Meghan Markle nasty"
"The wall is being built quickly"
"I saved pre-existing conditions in your healthcare"
"My father was born in Germany"
"The troops got the first pay raise in 10 years"
"You need ID to buy groceries"
"Democrats want to give cars to illegals"
"Kamala Harris supports MS-13"
"They put people's names in a bin and then choose the worst ones to be sent to the US"
"The counterprotesters in Charlottesville had no permit"
"Terrorist attacks are not even reported"
"We had a negative GDP for the first time ever"
"I never told folks to check out a sex tape of a former miss universe contestant"
"Ted Cruz' father was with Lee Harvey Oswald"
"Obama actively supported al-Qaida in Iraq"
"General Pershing dipped bullets in pigs' blood, shot 49 muslims and let the 50th go away to tell his people, and then there wasn't a problem anymore"
"I had no business interests in Russia"
"There is no longer a nuclear threat from north Korea"
"India has asked me to mediate Kashmir"
"I didn't know Rudy went to Ukraine"
...now these are all demostrable lies, I did not quote him exactly, but I didn't make stuff up either. These are LIES. Give me two hours and I find an additional list as long as this one... give me 4 hours... only time and my energy limits it, not Trump's number of lies.
And then there's so much additional smears, like Mika bleeding badly from a face-lift while begging to be let into MaraLago and whatnot. Or how he stapled a bunch of papers to "prove" he let go of his business, while not letting go of his business. Or how he could not show his tax returns as promised because they are under audit for ever. This man is not an honest person. Support him all you want, but please for everything's sake, just be real about that.
(01-27-2020, 03:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Well, at that point there's no turning back and regardless if he saved a baby from a burning building, he would be called a liar
Well, let him save a baby first and then we'll see. As of now, he hasn't. He only claimed he would probably storm into a school shooting scene. And yeah, to that I say as well, hold your horses, brave guy.
(01-27-2020, 03:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: No - sorry, I just don't. I think some have chosen hate over dislike for him. Well, at that point there's no turning back and regardless if he saved a baby from a burning building, he would be called a liar and that it never happened or it would be twisted into "Trump threw a baby into a burning building, which is where most of the media is now. You do see that, don't you?
You have to have your head buried in the ground not to hear all the lies Trump has told.
This is not about the different sides having different perspective. You actually have to willfully ignore the truth when it is told to you if you don't think Trump is an unrepentant liar.
(01-27-2020, 05:21 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Both sides lie. Don't they ?
Not to that extent. Typically, politicians rely on omissions, distortions, or little massages of truth that while technically not wrong on the facts are misleading. Trump's statements are so frequent and blatant that it goes far beyond what has been seen in American politics in the modern age.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
Distortions, little/big massages of truth & misleading omissions have all been displayed by the Dems in this fiasco. But I guess that's alright because they aren't bold faced lies. Is that where we are at?
(01-27-2020, 02:03 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Be sensible. It's not a good strategy when Shifty gets up there and speaks garbage and grossly exaggerates, lies or misrepresents his views of so-called facts. To me, that just reinforces my opinion that this has all been a sham in the first place. But the biggest laughable part about all this IMO is that the Dems target in all this has been the democratic voters, as if they're trying to prove they haven't wasted the last 3 yrs solely witch hunting the president and not serving the american people. I think this whole thing has hurt the dems much more than they realize.
I'm sure the dems will eventually get Trump because, well, he's a doer and not a do nothing lying politician. Plus, he can't stay off Twitter long enough to let people cool down. But this impeachment will not be the time you get him.
(01-27-2020, 03:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: No - sorry, I just don't. I think some have chosen hate over dislike for him. Well, at that point there's no turning back and regardless if he saved a baby from a burning building, he would be called a liar and that it never happened or it would be twisted into "Trump threw a baby into a burning building, which is where most of the media is now. You do see that, don't you?
It's tough to engage if you take one instance where Schiff exaggerated while paraphrasing months ago and decide that you can use that to characterizes him as lying throughout the impeachment trial (which was heavily fact based as opposed to the opening statements of the defense team that multiple sources have shown to be riddled with demonstrable lies) and then say that Trump does not lie, something which has been proven time after time.
Instead of choosing a hyperbole, try to detach emotionally and read an independent fact checking source. Just start with the tweet today in which he claimed the House never asked Bolton to testify.
The Democrat controlled House never even asked John Bolton to testify. It is up to them, not up to the Senate!
"House investigators did ask Bolton to testify during the impeachment inquiry last fall, but he declined to testify on instructions from the White House and said he would only testify pursuant to a subpoena if a court weighed in on the issue. The House never subpoenaed Bolton, likely to avoid a drawn-out court battle."
Here is an email from his lawyer to the House rejecting their invitation:
With regards to the claim that Democrats have done nothing, here's a piece from the Hill in June outlining the fact that the Senate has refused to even give a vote to numerous bills passed by the House:
Here's a fact checker noting that the House has passed over 500 pieces of legislation but hundreds sit dead in the Senate. The Senate has passed 400 pieces of legislation, but only 20% of that came from the Senate. By all standards, the GOP led Senate is the body that is not acting.
(01-27-2020, 05:33 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Distortions, little/big massages of truth & misleading omissions have all been displayed by the Dems in this fiasco. But I guess that's alright because they aren't bold faced lies. Is that where we are at?
Are we at ignoring the same thing from Republicans in addition to the outright lies and then trying to say two wrongs, as out of balance as they are, make a right?
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(01-27-2020, 05:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Are we at ignoring the same thing from Republicans in addition to the outright lies and then trying to say two wrongs, as out of balance as they are, make a right?
2 wrongs definitely doesn't make it right. Not saying that at all. I believe this is all about 2020.
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