Iran Situation

[*Nately120*]

(01-07-2020, 11:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Would it matter at all to you if you were shown that the Trump admin got us out of more conflicts than they got us in?

That's a hard sell since it's difficult to really prove that Trump's detached attitude towards other cultures, other people's lives, war in general, as well as his numerous threats and posturing aren't playing a role in making us a target of ire.  Plus, I'm a non-interventionist libertarian who soured completely when Obama's fan club cheered his reception of the Nobel Prize while he was drone striking and doubling-down on the patriot act and an endless war.

So I guess I would have to accept that the United States is indeed required to police the planet and that there is absolutely no way for our country specifically to avoid conflicts as well as our president playing the deadliest game of "big man behind a keyboard" foreign policy is actually diffusing conflict.  

So yea, that's a hard sell but I honestly may be completely nuts to think that we are complicit in this aggressive foreign policy our leaders take so much pride in. I see that Trump is tweeting about making a statement via our military and missiles. I can't help but feel like there are better ways for this whole situation to be handled, but I'm just a dreamer in many ways.

[Matt_Crimson]

(01-08-2020, 09:05 AM)Au165 Wrote: It is really eerie, however last time a jet liner went down in Iran it was because we shot it down. It is worth noting it was a Boeing 737, the same plane that has crashed a couple times over the last year almost immediately after take off.

While it's true that it was a Boeing 737, reports are currently saying that this is not the "MAX"version, which is the version that was crashing last year. The plane that just crashed has apparently been in operation since 2016.

[Matt_Crimson]

Iran has now reportedly refused to hand over the black boxes from the plane crash.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-wont-hand-over-black-boxes-from-airliner-that-crashed-killing-176/

[Au165]

(01-08-2020, 09:27 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: While it's true that it was a Boeing 737, reports are currently saying that this is not the "MAX"version, which is the version that was crashing last year. The plane that just crashed has apparently been in operation since 2016.

Makes sense, I guess there is a cell phone video out there showing an engine on fire before it crashed and that has been the claim by Iran so far. 

[Bengalzona]

(01-08-2020, 09:14 AM)Nately120 Wrote: That's a hard sell since it's difficult to really prove that Trump's detached attitude towards other cultures, other people's lives, war in general, as well as his numerous threats and posturing aren't playing a role in making us a target of ire.  Plus, I'm a non-interventionist libertarian who soured completely when Obama's fan club cheered his reception of the Nobel Prize while he was drone striking and doubling-down on the patriot act and an endless war.

So I guess I would have to accept that the United States is indeed required to police the planet and that there is absolutely no way for our country specifically to avoid conflicts as well as our president playing the deadliest game of "big man behind a keyboard" foreign policy is actually diffusing conflict.  

So yea, that's a hard sell but I honestly may be completely nuts to think that we are complicit in this aggressive foreign policy our leaders take so much pride in.  I see that Trump is tweeting about making a statement via our military and missiles.  I can't help but feel like there are better ways for this whole situation to be handled, but I'm just a dreamer in many ways.

"You might say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not..." - Steve Carrell, "Dinner for Schmucks"

[jj22]

This escalated quickly and we knew it would. Iran showed an amazing lack of respect for the American President with such a quick response from their home turf. After his threats (that he must go forward with now if America is ever to be respected again). We have to pray the people making the decisions know what they are doing. Israel (go figure) turned on Trump and the US and want nothing to do with what is going on. We know they like to start wars we have to fight. And they've shown again once we begin the fight they are no where to be found. The rest of our Allies have distanced themselves (oops, that's why you don't turn on them and treat them as enemy's). Our only hope and the likely outcome is with Putin of all people. He is already in the area and Trump will listen to him. His power will grow depending on how this goes, and he will likely broker the peace agreement.

Prayers for all our military men and women. We are at war.

[*michaelsean*]

So if there were no deaths in the missile attack, would you let it go and call it a day?

[jj22]

(01-08-2020, 10:22 AM)michaelsean Wrote: So if there were no deaths in the missile attack, would you let it go and call it a day?

You can't. This was a direct military attack from Iran. Not a proxy attack by their militants that they can deny. It was an attack from their home turf. Bragged about non stop by Iran and celebrated in the streets and through the media. They are openly bragging about the move. This just doesn't happen to America.

America must respond, and we will with the full force of our military.

[GMDino]

(01-08-2020, 03:00 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Not sure what that has to do with the Ukrainian airliner crashing, but I'm not shedding any tears over the dude.

This is the "You're either with our or against us" reboot from 2002.

We will now be told by State Run Media FOX that no one can criticize the POTUS because of the attack.

Trump will call Iran "losers" because no one was killed and promise to strike back.  His minions will praise Dear Leader for his "restraint" and for not leading us into war while simultaneously praising his "toughness" for not backing down.

Then we'll repeat the cycle.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-08-2020, 10:27 AM)jj22 Wrote: You can't. This was a direct military attack from Iran. Not a proxy attack by their militants that they can deny. It was an attack from their home turf. Bragged about non stop by Iran and celebrated in the streets and through the media. They are openly bragging about the move. This just doesn't happen to America.

America must respond, and we will with the full force of our military.

I think you can if you are supremely confident.  Call it a face saving maneuver, no real damage (If that's the case) it better end here, and move on.  

[Au165]

(01-08-2020, 10:22 AM)michaelsean Wrote: So if there were no deaths in the missile attack, would you let it go and call it a day?

Yes, and there are some who believe that was the plan all along by Iran. At this point both parties can get out and save face, but if that will actually happen is yet to be seen.

[jj22]

(01-08-2020, 10:43 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I think you can if you are supremely confident.  Call it a face saving maneuver, no real damage (If that's the case) it better end here, and move on.  

I don't think you can give Iran the win (which it would be as no other foreign nation would dare challenge America like that, prior to Trump anyway). Especially after all the talk and threats of war with Iran from America.

If America doesn't respond, it'll be viewed as a defeat, and we can't take a loss to Iran after all the threats. We'd lose all of our Afghanistan/Iraq allies on the ground if we do.

We just can't ignore it unfortunately and maintain our credibility in the region.

[CJD]

(01-08-2020, 10:22 AM)michaelsean Wrote: So if there were no deaths in the missile attack, would you let it go and call it a day?

I think the biggest thing we can glean from that attack from Iran is that Iran is little brother. He may huff and puff and carry on, but he can't hurt an adult. It's all hot air. They are resoundingly incompetent when it comes to matching America in military might, so it would be foolish for them to even try. Essentially, that attacked proved their complete ineffectiveness and bluster.

If you want to end this conflict, you do let it go. "You took your best shot and you missed. Now go home, little baby." 

If you want to prolong the conflict, you make another attack. "We will match you blow for blow and let's see who lasts longer."

If you want to put Iran in its place, you unleash a devastating attack. "We will show the world what it means to strike America."

It'll be interesting to see what Trump chooses to do.

[*bfine32*]

(01-08-2020, 09:14 AM)Nately120 Wrote: That's a hard sell since it's difficult to really prove that Trump's detached attitude towards other cultures, other people's lives, war in general, as well as his numerous threats and posturing aren't playing a role in making us a target of ire.  Plus, I'm a non-interventionist libertarian who soured completely when Obama's fan club cheered his reception of the Nobel Prize while he was drone striking and doubling-down on the patriot act and an endless war.

So I guess I would have to accept that the United States is indeed required to police the planet and that there is absolutely no way for our country specifically to avoid conflicts as well as our president playing the deadliest game of "big man behind a keyboard" foreign policy is actually diffusing conflict.  

So yea, that's a hard sell but I honestly may be completely nuts to think that we are complicit in this aggressive foreign policy our leaders take so much pride in.  I see that Trump is tweeting about making a statement via our military and missiles.  I can't help but feel like there are better ways for this whole situation to be handled, but I'm just a dreamer in many ways.

I'll take that as a long No

[Matt_Crimson]

(01-08-2020, 10:22 AM)michaelsean Wrote: So if there were no deaths in the missile attack, would you let it go and call it a day?

I wouldnt call it a day just because no one died. I think we put too much emphasis on "deaths that resulted from an attack" when there are other important things we need to take into consideration.

Say for example that you were a US soldier that just got attacked by Iran and your leg got blown off, but you survived. Would you want the US to not respond because you survived?

Death is obviously a tragic thing, but I think people need to be careful not to belittle other serious things that can happen from attacks like these, such as a soldier being severely wounded. The wounded matter just as much as the dead. And to be clear, I'm not saying you are belittling anyone, im just making a point.

[jj22]

A good point from social media.

Reminder that as this crisis escalates, we have no Director of National Intelligence, no Dep Dir, no Homeland Security Secretary, no Dep Sec, no head of CBP or ICE, no State Dept Under Sec of Arms Control, no Asst Sec for Europe, and no Navy Sec.

[*bfine32*]

(01-08-2020, 02:10 AM)Benton Wrote: Leave.

Stop fighting proxy wars. Stop fighting actual wars. Leave them to settle their own fights that have been going on five times longer (or more) than we've been a country. 

We've spent a lot of money and blood trying to claim something. 

We are in the process of leaving when the recent incident that sparked this attack occurred.

[*michaelsean*]

Just putting myself in their shoes, Iranian leaders have to be terrified. In a war they get destroyed. Terrorism may make them feel better momentarily, but it doesn't protect them. I imagine their main concerns are their lives, their power and their wealth, and how to escape this with all intact.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-08-2020, 11:22 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I wouldnt call it a day just because no one died. I think we put too much emphasis on "deaths that resulted from an attack" when there are other important things we need to take into consideration.

Say for example that you were a US soldier that just got attacked by Iran and your leg got blown off, but you survived. Would you want the US to not respond because you survived?

Death is obviously a tragic thing, but I think people need to be careful not to belittle other serious things that can happen from attacks like these, such as a soldier being severely wounded. The wounded matter just as much as the dead. And to be clear, I'm not saying you are belittling anyone, im just making a point.

I should include serious injury, but I'm not sure that a soldier who was seriously injured would necessarily want it to escalate to avenge his leg. Bfine would know better.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-08-2020, 11:14 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think the biggest thing we can glean from that attack from Iran is that Iran is little brother. He may huff and puff and carry on, but he can't hurt an adult. It's all hot air. They are resoundingly incompetent when it comes to matching America in military might, so it would be foolish for them to even try. Essentially, that attacked proved their complete ineffectiveness and bluster.

If you want to end this conflict, you do let it go. "You took your best shot and you missed. Now go home, little baby."

If you want to prolong the conflict, you make another attack. "We will match you blow for blow and let's see who lasts longer."

If you want to put Iran in its place, you unleash a devastating attack. "We will show the world what it means to strike America."

It'll be interesting to see what Trump chooses to do.

For me, and i'm certainly no expert, this is the best response.