Is Hillary Getting Desperate?

[Rotobeast]

[JustWinBaby]

(02-27-2016, 11:03 AM)GMDino Wrote: I disagree.  If he had not had his daddy's money and his daddy's had not forced a good education into him he'd be the guy we all know sitting on a bar stool telling how smart he REALLY is and he'd be something it weren't for those fat cats in Washington stopping him!

Thousands of people have inherited money like that and done nothing, if not squandered much of it.

Credit where credit is due, he's built a premier brand.  As a developer, he's in the same class as Steve Wynn and other moguls.  I know it doesn't play into the "deck is stacked against you" meme, but people from modest families continue to hit big.  I don't like Trump, either, but the guy has clearly demonstrated an ability in branding and development.  He may not be worth $10B or whatever without daddy's headstart, but I think he would still be very successful.

[JustWinBaby]

(02-27-2016, 02:04 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Trump is quite obviously the product of an "inherited money" system.

That's just a gross misrepresentation.  Many people have inherited money, or won the lottery, and squandered it.  Many people have taken over daddy's business and ruined it.

And the proof is almost no one on this board would know what to do with the money Trump inherited and wouldn't be anywhere near where he is.  Real Estate is a different game, but Trump definitely has a mastery of it that would far elude most people even if they got the same start he did.

Developers, investors and builders lose their ass in real estate all the time.  To imply you just need Trump's money to be successful is patently false.  It gives you a headstart, but it still takes talent and hard work to accomplish what he has and grow the fortune as much as he has.

Go ahead and say Trump is rich, maybe, because he was born rich. But let's not pretend he's successful despite a lack of real talent.

[*Nately120*]

(02-27-2016, 08:26 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: That's just a gross misrepresentation.  Many people have inherited money, or won the lottery, and squandered it.  Many people have taken over daddy's business and ruined it.

How many times has Trump declared bankruptcy?  Trump is the face of the "too big to fail" privatization of profit and socialization of loss that put this country in the hole it is now.  If Trump or his supporters knew anything about business or the economy they wouldn't have to spend so much time blaming entire races of people for this 'n' that.  Donald Trump has failed.  Multiple times.  Just call it like it is.

Trump is a good businessman in the sense that he can get people to swallow a bunch of bs that isn't in their best interested.  Trust me, I worked in advertising as one of the people who convinced Americans that Doritos were fun and extreme, rather than something you stuff in your mouth while you get hypertension.  

[JustWinBaby]

(02-28-2016, 12:40 AM)Nately120 Wrote: How many times has Trump declared bankruptcy?  Trump is the face of the "too big to fail" privatization of profit and socialization of loss that put this country in the hole it is now.  If Trump or his supporters knew anything about business or the economy they wouldn't have to spend so much time blaming entire races of people for this 'n' that.  Donald Trump has failed.  Multiple times.  Just call it like it is.

To my knowledge, Trump has never filed personal bankruptcy.  Companies go bankrupt and re-org all the time.  Each new development he sets-up as a separate corporation, and this shields him personally as well as his overall company from failed projects.  That's just how business is done in real estate, and the banks know this and adjust their loan terms accordingly.

I think his business has been in trouble once or twice when the economy or real estate market tanked and he was fairly levered, but you're buying into the bankruptcy meme because you don't understand it.

[*Nately120*]

(02-28-2016, 12:51 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: To my knowledge, Trump has never filed personal bankruptcy.  Companies go bankrupt and re-org all the time.  Each new development he sets-up as a separate corporation, and this shields him personally as well as his overall company from failed projects.  That's just how business is done in real estate, and the banks know this and adjust their loan terms accordingly.

I think his business has been in trouble once or twice when the economy or real estate market tanked and he was fairly levered, but you're buying into the bankruptcy meme because you don't understand it.

Trump's business practices and zeal to take advantage of Chapter 11 bankruptcy over the past 25 years has been around a lot longer than the meme.  Trump has been acting like a horse's ass for almost 30 years now, but for some reason every time anyone criticizes him people act like thinking Trump is a nut was something dreamed up in the past year or so.

I've been scoffing at Trump's hype long before meme's existed, so if I'm wrong and a moron it has nothing to do with me being duped by the liberal media from 2014 onward.

[JustWinBaby]

(02-28-2016, 01:28 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Trump's business practices and zeal to take advantage of Chapter 11 bankruptcy over the past 25 years has been around a lot longer than the meme. 

No, not really.  3 of the 4 bankruptcies were in the Casino industry, and you might want to read up a little on that - giants were in trouble after the financial crisis so it happens in that industry.  And all 3 may have been in Atlantic City, which has been dying for years.

There's plenty to criticize Trump for, but the bankruptcy thing is a non-starter.  It's just a personal attack meant to inflame people who don't understand how it really works.  I just found it comical that you criticized his followers for not understanding business when you yourself actually don't seem to understand it all.

Trump as the embodiement of "too big to fail" and "socialization of loss" just wreaks of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.  He was never "bailed out" nor were his losses somehow socialized.

[*Nately120*]

(02-28-2016, 02:56 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: No, not really.  3 of the 4 bankruptcies were in the Casino industry, and you might want to read up a little on that - giants were in trouble after the financial crisis so it happens in that industry.  And all 3 may have been in Atlantic City, which has been dying for years.

There's plenty to criticize Trump for, but the bankruptcy thing is a non-starter.  It's just a personal attack meant to inflame people who don't understand how it really works.  I just found it comical that you criticized his followers for not understanding business when you yourself actually don't seem to understand it all.

Trump as the embodiement of "too big to fail" and "socialization of loss" just wreaks of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.  He was never "bailed out" nor were his losses somehow socialized.

So Trump's chapter 11 filings didn't cost taxpayers? I get it, he loses money, his creditors lose money, he should (in theory) lose standing in the business world but when Trump tells Atlantic City to just deal with an empty casino no one bats an eye? Call me skeptical, but if someone like Trump isn't using his wealth to every advantage he can, I'd be amazed.

Welp, maybe I just want to hate the guy. Wait, in 1990 he signed a bailout pact with "Banks that lent Trump $1.9 billion are poised to forgive hundreds of millions of dollars Trump owes them in exchange for prime New York real estate and other holdings, according to information gleaned from two dozen interviews over the last 12 days."

So the bank bought his debt and then he paid it back? You got me, I'm confused.

"Trump eventually found himself in serious financial trouble. In 1990, due to excessive leveraging, The Trump Organization revealed that it was $5 billion in debt ($8.8 billion by some estimates), with $1 billion personally guaranteed by Trump himself. The survival of the company was made possible only by a bailout pact agreed upon in August of that same year by some 70 banks, allowing Trump to defer on nearly $1 billion in debt, as well as to take out second and third mortgages on almost all of his properties."

Again, so this was a private bailout of the nature of the banks buying his debt? And if he asked "for the banks to forgive debts of hundreds of millions of dollars owed by Trump and to release the last $20 million from the $65 million credit line created under the bailout deal" does that mean he passed the buck along to anyone but his creditors?

You're right...I don't have an easy answer for this. I will say it looks like Trump is a beneficiary of some favorable treatment not everyone in this country can get, however.

[GMDino]

(02-27-2016, 08:19 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Thousands of people have inherited money like that and done nothing, if not squandered much of it.

Credit where credit is due, he's built a premier brand.  As a developer, he's in the same class as Steve Wynn and other moguls.  I know it doesn't play into the "deck is stacked against you" meme, but people from modest families continue to hit big.  I don't like Trump, either, but the guy has clearly demonstrated an ability in branding and development.  He may not be worth $10B or whatever without daddy's headstart, but I think he would still be very successful.

Reread what I said.  He took daddy's money and the education daddy paid for and made something. of himself.  Now he tells everyone how wonderful HE is as if he didn't from scratch.

So I'll stand by the statement that without daddy's money and daddy paying for the education he'd be Joe Blow at the bar complaining about how he's REALLY smart and could be something if he had a rich daddy.

Any grown man who responds to every criticism with "Your are stupid" "you are a loser" "Many people tell me how great I am" is nothing but one giant ego that ever got deflated or isn't smart enough to know when they are wrong.  

[fredtoast]

(02-27-2016, 07:49 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: That's kind of what made this country great.  The last 7 years, we've just been kissing other country's asses and not being the greatest country on the planet.  We've gone from a country where competition breads excellence and makes us the best that we can possibly be to a country that wants to make sure that no one succeeds too much so no one feels inferior.  

What specific policies are you talking about?

I hear a lot of people repeating this same mindless rhetoric, but whe npushed for details they generally can not give a specific policy decision that backs up anyhting they claim.

For example how exactly has the United States "make sure no one succeeds too much"?  I have not seen anything at all like that happening.  What i have seen is huge tax breaks for corporations to help them succeed.  I have seen low interest rates to help businesses succeed.  So what have you seen the government do to "make sure no one succeeds too much"?

Alos we have been the greatest country pon the planet for the last 7 years.  What exactly do you mean by "kissing other countries asses"?  I haven't seen that at all.  I have seen us work smartly using international santions to end Iran's nuclear weapons program for the next 10 years.  Our air force has been actively supporting miltary efforst in the middle east.  Our navy has been showing force in the South China Sea.  So where is all this "kissing ass"?

And finally, do you consider the Vietnam War and the Iraq War examples of "what made America great"?

[BFritz21]

(02-28-2016, 01:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What specific policies are you talking about?

Pretty sure you know some of them.

Obamacare.  Was it even necessary for me to point that one out or was it just assumed that you meant "besides for Obamacare"?

The ones that were supposed to cut the deficit in half, but instead increased it by 7 trillion or so.

His housing policies failing to prevent foreclosures, which is something he promised.

His policies that were supposed to make college cheaper but it's strangely at an all-time high in terms of costs.

I remember in 08, one of the many things he promised was to fix the energy crisis, but he himself admitted he failed at it.

ISIS.

Benghazi.

(02-28-2016, 01:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: For example how exactly has the United States "make sure no one succeeds too much"?  I have not seen anything at all like that happening.  What i have seen is huge tax breaks for corporations to help them succeed.  I have seen low interest rates to help businesses succeed.  So what have you seen the government do to "make sure no one succeeds too much"?

United States hasn't done it.  Obama has.  He taxed the wealthy a lot heavier than he did the poor.  He tried to make it equal for everyone in terms of going to college and tried to make it so the people who work their asses off in school to get scholarships and things are treated pretty much the same as people who just were going to go on the government ticket.  Things like college are a privilege and should be worked hard to attain, not given.  My father's family was piss-poor and he worked his ass off to go to college on an academic scholarship and built a great life for himself and for my family.  Why are people entitled to go to college just because "everyone deserves a fair chance"?  Everyone has a fair chance, but it's up to them to take advantage if it.

Destroying the middle class. 

(02-28-2016, 01:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Alos we have been the greatest country pon the planet for the last 7 years.  What exactly do you mean by "kissing other countries asses"?  I haven't seen that at all.  I have seen us work smartly using international santions to end Iran's nuclear weapons program for the next 10 years.  Our air force has been actively supporting miltary efforst in the middle east.  Our navy has been showing force in the South China Sea.  So where is all this "kissing ass"?

Here's 10 examples of Obama apologizing, mostly to other countries, for us being the superpower of the world, which it's evident that we no longer are.

(02-28-2016, 01:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And finally, do you consider the Vietnam War and the Iraq War examples of "what made America great"?

Two failed wars, but both were based off of good reasoning (stop WMD, which turned out to be false and a bad reason, and to stop the spread of Communism).

[GMDino]

(02-28-2016, 01:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What specific policies are you talking about?

I hear a lot of people repeating this same mindless rhetoric, but whe npushed for details they generally can not give a specific policy decision that backs up anyhting they claim.

For example how exactly has the United States "make sure no one succeeds too much"?  I have not seen anything at all like that happening.  What i have seen is huge tax breaks for corporations to help them succeed.  I have seen low interest rates to help businesses succeed.  So what have you seen the government do to "make sure no one succeeds too much"?

Alos we have been the greatest country pon the planet for the last 7 years.  What exactly do you mean by "kissing other countries asses"?  I haven't seen that at all.  I have seen us work smartly using international santions to end Iran's nuclear weapons program for the next 10 years.  Our air force has been actively supporting miltary efforst in the middle east.  Our navy has been showing force in the South China Sea.  So where is all this "kissing ass"?

And finally, do you consider the Vietnam War and the Iraq War examples of "what made America great"?

(02-28-2016, 10:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Pretty sure you know some of them.

Obamacare.  Was it even necessary for me to point that one out or was it just assumed that you meant "besides for Obamacare"?

The ones that were supposed to cut the deficit in half, but instead increased it by 7 trillion or so.

His housing policies failing to prevent foreclosures, which is something he promised.

His policies that were supposed to make college cheaper but it's strangely at an all-time high in terms of costs.

I remember in 08, one of the many things he promised was to fix the energy crisis, but he himself admitted he failed at it.

ISIS.

Benghazi.
United States hasn't done it.  Obama has.  He taxed the wealthy a lot heavier than he did the poor.  He tried to make it equal for everyone in terms of going to college and tried to make it so the people who work their asses off in school to get scholarships and things are treated pretty much the same as people who just were going to go on the government ticket.  Things like college are a privilege and should be worked hard to attain, not given.  My father's family was piss-poor and he worked his ass off to go to college on an academic scholarship and built a great life for himself and for my family.  Why are people entitled to go to college just because "everyone deserves a fair chance"?  Everyone has a fair chance, but it's up to them to take advantage if it.

Destroying the middle class. 

Here's 10 examples of Obama apologizing, mostly to other countries, for us being the superpower of the world, which it's evident that we no longer are.



Two failed wars, but both were based off of good reasoning (stop WMD, which turned out to be false and a bad reason, and to stop the spread of Communism).

[JustWinBaby]

(02-28-2016, 01:01 PM)GMDino Wrote: So I'll stand by the statement that without daddy's money and daddy paying for the education he'd be Joe Blow at the bar  

Fascinating...a fictional belief about Trump to reinforce a fictional belief that money and privilege is some sort of guarantee of success.

[Benton]

(02-28-2016, 11:06 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Fascinating...a fictional belief about Trump to reinforce a fictional belief that money and privilege is some sort of guarantee of success.

Guarantee? No.

But money and access make it easier to have money ans access.

[GMDino]

(02-28-2016, 11:06 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Fascinating...a fictional belief about Trump to reinforce a fictional belief that money and privilege is some sort of guarantee of success.

That is twice, in this thread, that you ignored what I posted and went off about something I didn't say.

Trump is the kind of guy who was born on third and thinks he hit a triple.  He had a head start and was able to get a better education.  Does that "guarantee" success?

Of course not.

But it's a damn sight easier than being born into a welfare family and going through a public school system that is being dismantled by the same folks who keep saying if you don't get a good education it is your own fault.  Or trying to go to college and pay off a student loan that has become more big business than education.

And, for the third time, given Donald's penchant for tooting his own horn, without the head start he'd be the guy telling everyone at the bar how smart he is instead of being the guy running for president telling everyone how people tell him how smart he is.

[fredtoast]

(02-28-2016, 10:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Pretty sure you know some of them.

Obamacare.  Was it even necessary for me to point that one out or was it just assumed that you meant "besides for Obamacare"?

The ones that were supposed to cut the deficit in half, but instead increased it by 7 trillion or so.

His housing policies failing to prevent foreclosures, which is something he promised.

His policies that were supposed to make college cheaper but it's strangely at an all-time high in terms of costs.

I remember in 08, one of the many things he promised was to fix the energy crisis, but he himself admitted he failed at it.

I will gladly address these issues at another time, but for right now I was only interested in your claims of Obama "kissing other countries ass" and "making sure no one succeeds too much".  Since none of these apply I'll move on to.  .  .  

(02-28-2016, 10:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: United States hasn't done it.  Obama has.  He taxed the wealthy a lot heavier than he did the poor.  He tried to make it equal for everyone in terms of going to college and tried to make it so the people who work their asses off in school to get scholarships and things are treated pretty much the same as people who just were going to go on the government ticket.  Things like college are a privilege and should be worked hard to attain, not given.  My father's family was piss-poor and he worked his ass off to go to college on an academic scholarship and built a great life for himself and for my family.  Why are people entitled to go to college just because "everyone deserves a fair chance"?  Everyone has a fair chance, but it's up to them to take advantage if it.

1.  Obama has not raised taxes on anyone.  In 2012 people making over half-a-million a year saw a 5% increase only on the amount they earned in excess of half a million, but that was the work of the Republican controlled congress.  And I still don't see that as limiting how much a person can succeed.

2.  Helping the disadvantaged also is not a limit on how much other people can succeed.  In fact by helping the disadvantaged get a better education it is actually helping the elite by providing them with an educated work force and a consumer base capable of buying their goods and services.  Half of the people in this country are of below average intellect.  Not everyone is capable of winning academic scholarships.  I don't think that means they should be just cast aside and relegated to poverty.  Educating the general population helps the entire country.

I was lucky enough to be one of those people born with a good brain.  I also qualified for academic scholarships.  But I was never so afraid of the people below me that I considered assitance given to them as a threat to my success.

(02-28-2016, 10:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Destroying the middle class. 

Not sure what you are trying to say here, but during the Obama administration the middle class has seen the value of their homes rise dramatically and their stock market saving accounts double in value.

Maybe iof you could give me a few more details I can give a more detailed response.

(02-28-2016, 10:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Here's 10 examples of Obama apologizing, mostly to other countries, for us being the superpower of the world, which it's evident that we no longer are.

1.  Everyone with a brain knows we are still the superpower of the world.  Our GDP is still way over double the next country on Earth (China).  Our economy drives the entire worlds economy.  We still control almost 40% of all the military spending on earth.  Our military presence acts as security for international trade all around the globe.

2.  Apologizing is part of a thing called "diplomacy".  That is a thing civilized people use to shape foreign policy instead of just threats to "BOMB 'EM BACK TO THE STONE AGE!" 

Now if Obama had went to these countries grovelling and begging for something then I would agree with you that these apologies could be seen as "kissing ass".  But Obama was not begging or asking for anything.  All he was trying to do was re-establish diplomatic ties.  He was not apologizing from a position of weakness or because he was forced to.  Instead he was doing what real men do.  He was admitting mistakes had been made and owning up to them.   

Clearly something you will never understand.

[fredtoast]

(02-28-2016, 10:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Two failed wars, but both were based off of good reasoning (stop WMD, which turned out to be false and a bad reason, and to stop the spread of Communism).

If the reasoning behind the Vietnam War was correct and we lost then why didn't Communism continue to spread?

[BFritz21]

(02-29-2016, 12:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not sure what you are trying to say here, but during the Obama administration the middle class has seen the value of their homes rise dramatically and their stock market saving accounts double in value.

Maybe iof you could give me a few more details I can give a more detailed response.

** 1 in 2 working Americans make less than $30,000 a year.

** More Children Live in Poverty Today Than During 2008 Recession
** Worst Labor Force Participation Rate Since 1977
** More Young Adults Live at Home Than in 2009
** One in Five US Families Not Working
** Real Hourly Income Down 10% Under Obama
** 11.4 Million Americans Have Left Workforce Since Obama Took Office
** Typical US Household Worth One-Third Less Than Under Bush
** One-Fifth of Middle Class Falls into Poverty



There's a few.

(02-29-2016, 12:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  Everyone with a brain knows we are still the superpower of the world.  Our GDP is still way over double the next country on Earth (China).  Our economy drives the entire worlds economy.  We still control almost 40% of all the military spending on earth.  Our military presence acts as security for international trade all around the globe.

2.  Apologizing is part of a thing called "diplomacy".  That is a thing civilized people use to shape foreign policy instead of just threats to "BOMB 'EM BACK TO THE STONE AGE!" 

Now if Obama had went to these countries grovelling and begging for something then I would agree with you that these apologies could be seen as "kissing ass".  But Obama was not begging or asking for anything.  All he was trying to do was re-establish diplomatic ties.  He was not apologizing from a position of weakness or because he was forced to.  Instead he was doing what real men do.  He was admitting mistakes had been made and owning up to them.   

Clearly something you will never understand.

Ha!


Apologizing is part of diplomacy for being wrong, but when we have done nothing wrong, it only makes us look weak.  He has called America arrogant and said that we've been wrong in being so decisive and going at things full-force and not caring about what other countries think, but guess what, that's what a leader does!  I'm not saying that we need to piss off other countries, but we lead, we don't follow, which Obama is a follower.

It's hilarious how you claim that I'm the one who doesn't understand about owning up to mistakes.

(02-29-2016, 12:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If the reasoning behind the Vietnam War was correct and we lost then why didn't Communism continue to spread?

Because the war stopped the North from invading the South and other countries for years, at least slowing it and not allowing it to spread to more of Asia.

[fredtoast]

(02-29-2016, 02:32 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Apologizing is part of diplomacy for being wrong, but when we have done nothing wrong, it only makes us look weak. 

We have made mistakes.  Everyone knows this.  

Real leaders acknowledge their mistakes instead of insisting they never happened.  In fact that makes us look stronger than lying to other countries.

I don't think the United States should ever get into a military operation against a country that has not attacked us unless it is part of an international coalition.  And it is going to be hard to ever form a coalition when we have a history of lying.