Is it OK for NYT, CNN and squad members to report misinformation

[Dill]

(10-27-2023, 11:44 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:Looks like that mistaken report of the hospital bombing is having a useful effect for Israel and the US, if it contributes to distrust of Hamas.

I don't think the evangelical position of bringing on the end of days is applicable to this discussion, nor is it really part of Dill's argument.  I understand what you're saying, but I also don't think many people make any distinction between Zionism and Jewish people in general.  Nor does Dill make any effort to indicate otherwise, although he probably will now after that amazingly bad post about Israel and the US trying to "discredit Hamas".

There is no "amazingly bad post" in which I have asserted that Israel and the US were "trying to 'discredit Hamas.'"

All I did was note what the practical effect of the misreporting will likely be on news readership, to the US and Israel's favor.
That's an effect outside the intent of any of the actors in this case. 

My comment is also an addition to discussion of supposed effects the reporting had on US interests; it disputes the assumption that the effects
can only be harmful to the US/Israel.

[Dill]

(10-27-2023, 01:20 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I try to understand different points of view, but you lose me in your arguments. Hamas terror partner in Gaza  launched a rocket towards Israel within 1 mile of a Gaza hospital, it malfunctioned and if we take Hamas at their word killed over 500 Palestinians. including children. How many other failed rockets fired with Gaza killed innocent Palestinians? Does Hamas include they killed in. their numbers?

Why would anyone take the word of a terrorist organization's word with sole goal is to eliminate every Jew on earth, not just Israel, but the world. We know their agenda as they offer it freely. Yet, you defend them.

I have asked this question numerous times, What has terrorist Hamas done to protect their own Palestinian people from harm? They started this crap, yet some like you want to give them justification for killing innocent people. I am baffled.

Also, Hamas fired a missile into an apartment building in Tel Aviv again. Where i your outrage for Hamas continuing to target civilians? 

Just a quick note here--

I never had much trust in the initial claims of 500 dead. Those are unofficial. I do think that over the coming weeks, the death toll will be reasonably accurate for reasons already stated. All the social workers, doctors, nurses, school teachers and other civil servants working under the Hamas government are not murderous terrorists.

Trying to get an accurate read on what is happening in this conflict--including the historical context without which no one can understand why there is a Gaza in the first place--is not "defending" Hamas or giving them justification for killing people. People shouting that really don't want you to understand what's going on.

What you and SSF are really objecting to is that I don't limit condemnation of war crimes to Hamas, or my outrage to Israeli civilians. To repeat a point I made above--once one sees Palestinians as people with equal human rights, the character of the conflict and the question of who "started this crap" changes.

As far as what Hamas has done to protect Palestinians, I think they reached a decision that they cannot, at least in the same sense that Israelis can protect Israel. They are trapped in a cage and the only hope for the future is to break the cage. Theirs is a strategy of despair, but it may still prove successful if it blocks the other Arab countries from accepting normal relations with Israel without moving on the issue of Palestinian rights and autonomy.  

[Luvnit2]

(10-27-2023, 06:15 PM)Dill Wrote: Just a quick note here--

I never had much trust in the initial claims of 500 dead. Those are unofficial. I do think that over the coming weeks, the death toll will be reasonably accurate for reasons already stated. All the social workers, doctors, nurses, school teachers and other civil servants working under the Hamas government are not murderous terrorists.

Trying to get an accurate read on what is happening in this conflict--including the historical context without which no one can understand why there is a Gaza in the first place--is not "defending" Hamas or giving them justification for killing people. People shouting that really don't want you to understand what's going on.

What you and SSF are really objecting to is that I don't limit condemnation of war crimes to Hamas, or my outrage to Israeli civilians. To repeat a point I made above--once one sees Palestinians as people with equal human rights, the character of the conflict and the question of who "started this crap" changes.

As far as what Hamas has done to protect Palestinians, I think they reached a decision that they cannot, at least in the same sense that Israelis can protect Israel. They are trapped in a cage and the only hope for the future is to break the cage. Theirs is a strategy of despair, but it may still prove successful if it blocks the other Arab countries from accepting normal relations with Israel without moving on the issue of Palestinian rights and autonomy.  

I see free Palestinians. The question becomes is free them from what. I feel Israel needs to free them from Hamas and other terrorists who use them as shields. Hamas does not care about Palestinians in my opinion. If they did, they would never have committed a barbaric act knowing Israel would declare war. If they had no means to win a war with Israel, why start it. My guess is they did not ask Palestinians prior to killing innocent children, women and babies.

You keep saying they are trapped in Gaza. Are they? So, you are saying Hamas is holding them hostage and can't leave and live in the US, Europe or other countries? Israel has never forced Palestinians to stay in Gaza so please stop with the rhetoric they have no choices. It simply is not accurate.

[*pally*]

(10-28-2023, 12:29 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I see free Palestinians. The question becomes is free them from what. I feel Israel needs to free them from Hamas and other terrorists who use them as shields. Hamas does not care about Palestinians in my opinion. If they did, they would never have committed a barbaric act knowing Israel would declare war. If they had no means to win a war with Israel, why start it. My guess is they did not ask Palestinians prior to killing innocent children, women and babies.

You keep saying they are trapped in Gaza. Are they? So, you are saying Hamas is holding them hostage and can't leave and live in the US, Europe or other countries? Israel has never forced Palestinians to stay in Gaza so please stop with the rhetoric they have no choices. It simply is not accurate.

Israel does exactly that.  There are only 2 ways to exit Gaza, through Israel and through Egypt.  There is no port, there is no airport.  You have to go to or through 2 countries with closed borders.  Israel very much limits Palestinian travel outside Gaza or the West Bank.  They even have very limited travel ability between the Palestinian territories within Israel.  Palestinians are required to have travel permits which Israel is very selective about issuing and it takes a long time to receive.  Even if you have a travel permit a Palestinian-issued passport is one of the world's least useful.  So they have to have a destination.  Jordan is already overrun with refugees.  Over 50% of their population is Palestinian.  Add in the refugees from Syria, Lebanon, Iran, and Iraq and Jordan can't handle anymore and thus aren't accepting any more.  Besides you can't get to Jordan without traveling through Israel and they aren't permitting that. The logical destination would be someplace like Saudi Arabia or the UAE but they aren't letting the Palestinians in.

So Luvnit, you tell me...where can the Palestinians go?  And how can they get there when Israel won't let them leave Gaza?

[Dill]

(10-28-2023, 12:29 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I see free Palestinians. The question becomes is free them from what. I feel Israel needs to free them from Hamas and other terrorists who use them as shields. Hamas does not care about Palestinians in my opinion. If they did, they would never have committed a barbaric act knowing Israel would declare war. If they had no means to win a war with Israel, why start it. My guess is they did not ask Palestinians prior to killing innocent children, women and babies.

You keep saying they are trapped in Gaza. Are they? So, you are saying Hamas is holding them hostage and can't leave and live in the US, Europe or other countries? Israel has never forced Palestinians to stay in Gaza so please stop with the rhetoric they have no choices. It simply is not accurate.

Yes. They are. I showed you a picture of the barrier.

And no, I am not saying Hamas is holding them hostage.
I'm saying that Israelis took their land in 1948, after driving them off it
into places like Gaza and the West Bank.
I'm saying that Israel has had TOTAL control of Gaza since 1967.

A few have been able to leave--with Israeli permission. But where are 2.2 million
people going to go?

Also, from their perspective, many Palestinians want the land back that was violently taken
from them. That is why they call themselves resistance fighters.

Israel would love it if they just left and dropped their claims on their land.
But many would rather fight to the death than meekly abandon their claims to home.
Many still keep the keys to their original homes, passing them from generation to
generation.

[Dill]

(10-28-2023, 12:29 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I see free Palestinians. The question becomes is free them from what. I feel Israel needs to free them from Hamas and other terrorists who use them as shields. Hamas does not care about Palestinians in my opinion. If they did, they would never have committed a barbaric act knowing Israel would declare war. If they had no means to win a war with Israel, why start it. My guess is they did not ask Palestinians prior to killing innocent children, women and babies.

How do you feel about Israelis using Palestinians as human shields?
That's been going on for a long time.

https://www.btselem.org/human_shields
https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_use_five_palestinian_children_as_human_shields
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-u-n-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620

Remember that the women and children described in these links are on occupied territory under Israeli control.
Their lives, food, water, electricity and medical supplies are all controlled by Israel.

Their homes are frequently bulldozed as a form of illegal collective punishment.

You don't see the IDF talking about this in front of US news cameras, do you?

[GreenDragon]

(10-18-2023, 06:19 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: To me, this is not a political biased question. It is a question of irresponsible journalism possibly causing harm all around the world. Within minutes of the explosion at the hospital in Gaza, the NYT reported a direct Hamas narrative, the Gaza hospital was hit by a rocket from Israel. Why not get the facts on the guilty party versus a rush (incorrect) to judgment.

Then the squad used their bad reporting and caused a ton of harm, not only in the US, but the world. We know Talib hates Jewish people so know her motivation. But why would NYT and CNN report as fact anything Hamas says without 100% verification.

There are protests all over the world due to propaganda from Hamas using US congress women, CNN and NYT as their mouth piece.

There appears to be indisputable evidence the rockets were fired from within Gaza, but sadly the damage is done and poor journalism is destroying the Israel reputation.

Lives will be lost in the coming days and weeks, some because of very bad journalism.

Was it okay for Kelsey Conway to literally say they were presenting "alternative facts" to the public? 

[GreenDragon]

(10-18-2023, 06:55 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Can you ever answer a question? You have Trump derangement syndrome. There are many ways to steal or rig and election. I don't recall you being upset with HRC and her recent comments about 2016 election being stolen. Or Stacey Abrams from Georgia who still whines about stolen elections

I pray no one from your family is raped or beheaded by a Hamas member. I pray our media does not purposely spread disinformation leading the next World War. Trump's comments have zero impact on the world, it is solely a US issue. 

Spreading lies from Hamas is throwing gasoline on an a firestorm that has been brewing for decades. If you don't see the difference, God help you.

Can you ever actually present facts? Sorry, that was rhetorical. The answer is "no". 

[Dill]

(10-29-2023, 02:23 PM)GreenDragon Wrote: Can you ever actually present facts? Sorry, that was rhetorical. The answer is "no". 

Well he has been presenting two facts, repeatedly--the NYT misreported the hospital bombing and Tlaib repeated it.

But he doesn't realize that has a minimal impact in the Middle East, especially compared to US policy. 
Sending Israel war material turns the whole region against us. That's a real danger.

[*pally*]

(10-29-2023, 02:22 PM)GreenDragon Wrote: Was it okay for Kelsey Conway to literally say they were presenting "alternative facts" to the public? 

Kelsey Conway is the Bengals beat reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer

KellyAnne Conway, former Trump advisor, deals in alternative facts

[bjf123]

Here’s a great article showing how true journalism is pretty much dead. All the major media outlets around the world reported the same thing as fact with essentially no fact checking. It’s becoming almost impossible to trust anything being reported.

Used to be that editors required two independently verified sources to run with a story. Now it’s more important to be first, facts be damned.

https://www.silentlunch.net/p/did-the-entire-media-industry-misquote


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dill]

(10-27-2023, 07:52 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Zionism is not a completely Jewish movement. Evangelicals in the United States are especially complicit in the actions that have taken place in the region. But I also want to make clear in this conversation that Zionism is not synonymous with the current Israeli state just as Judaism, Zionism, and Israel are not synonymous.
I understand that you have your reasons for saying what you do about Dill, whatever, that's between you and him. I just want to make sure that it is understood that there are these differences because being reductive in the way the surface level reading of your statements are is not helpful to any conversation on this topic. Just as Dill's apparent blame towards Zionism comes across as reductive and unhelpful.

Not sure why it is "unhelpful" to focus on dispossession as the root cause of the current conflict.  Remember my exact words were "until Zionists began displacing Muslims, buying land with the goal of "transferring" Arabs out of Eretz Israel." I've never had a problem with cultural Zionism; my focus is on dispossession.

Given that, as I said, Jews and Muslims in Palestine got along before this dispossession began, and the violence between them begins with it, I don't find it a stretch to see it as the root cause, as the violence picks up with the rate of dispossession, through the 20s, 30s and 40s, culminating in the Nakba. But continuing now as Palestinian land and homes are appropriated, day by day, in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. The residents of Gaza are contained and besieged as part of a larger project to keep the land already taken from them and to acquire the remainder in the West Bank.  I'm confident you know this, so I'm puzzled at the "reductive" charge. 

And the history of this root cause seems precisely what is dismissed or obscured in so many representations of this current stage of the Arab-Israel conflict, though often in different ways. 

Claiming "it's all about religion" is perhaps the most pernicious form of this as it tends to dismiss further examination as unnecessary--"both sides" just hate, leaving force the only realistic option. We must steel ourselves to accept civilian casualties. 

But there are other variations which equally erase history. E.g., Many Israeli liberals describe the conflict as between "two nationalisms," a secular version of the religious explanation which equalizes claims to the land; US news often presents the conflict simply as a chicken-or-egg "cycle of violence" with no determinable cause (but as you yourself have noted, mostly when Palestinians fight back, so they always seem the cause of disruption). Many individuals say "they've been fighting each other for thousands of years"--again, wrong, and no sense of determinable cause.

I think it not wrong, or not far off, to say that Likud dominated governments in Israel have been "Zionist" since the 90s. I.e., their goal has been to break down peace talks and a two-state solution, to support Hamas to weaken the secular PLO, to annex the Golan Heights, and to advance settlements on the West Bank and evictions in East Jerusalem with the goal of eventual annexation. THAT is what the conflict is about. THAT is why Hamas wants to "destroy Israel."

The US has had the power to slow, contest, perhaps even prevent this, but instead has tended to uncritically identify US national interest with Israeli national interest, while Sharon and Netanyahu defined Israeli national interest. That has linked the US to the dispossession process.

This root cause may be invisible to most Americans, but it is foremost in the mind of Arabs, who see the double standard in the Western press and especially US politics. As King Hussein put it a few weeks ago, Arabs understand that we don't care about Palestinian rights because we don't care about Arab rights. So it's a larger fight for them.  Our "liberal" news organizations do better than Fox in representing the conflict, but  still do not explain it very well. And now is probably too little too late. If US citizens are attacked in the near future, as has become increasingly likely, we'll see a strong, emotional push to repeat past mistakes. As in 2003, people who oppose anger-driven, ill-considered responses will be identified with "the enemy."

[Dill]

(10-19-2023, 08:36 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't disagree with your premise, I disagree with the conclusion that it is "false news" or misinformation/disinformation. They did not say anything that was inaccurate in the headline. They are setting a narrative, that much is certain, but they walked the line pretty well on the side of accuracy. This isn't a NYT issue, or a CNN issue, we can find this all through corporate media.

For profit news agencies like them, like Fox, Newsmax, MSNBC, whoever, are not in the business of selling accurate reporting. They are in the business of selling the consumers/viewers/readers to their advertisers. In order to do that, they need more clicks, more eyeballs on their content and/or ears listening in. They care about accuracy only so far as to make sure they don't lose viewership, which often means they don't except for the most egregious things. They have their market share pretty well pegged and they will cater their headlines and chyron scrolls to keep the attention of their loyal viewers simply because that means more ad revenue comes in.

You don't have to like it. Lord knows I don't which is why I don't use corporate media and hate having to click on any of the links posted on here. But that's the reality of our media landscape in this country. We don't have the laws that require accurate and unbiased reporting. We don't have a publicly funded news agency like the BBC. Instead we have severely underfunded, viewer supported programming that attempts to fill the need but is attacked for their efforts. And don't get me wrong, I prefer the NGO approach because state-run media is a horrible thing and we should treasure the first amendment and the ability for these news agencies to do what they do. I just want to make sure we recognize what the issue is because it is far deeper than this headline or even the whole of the NYT. But the majority on here just like to pretend it is only the news organizations they disagree with that are the problem.

Sorry I've waited so long to respond to this. I guess in the last few days the issue has become more important too me. 

As to the bolded, it seems to me there is still quite a difference between Fox and the rest--especially the NYT and WaPo.

If you are right about the market/consumer model of news production, it would seem that at least some news consumers still hold their
organizations to a higher standard. If the NYT and WaPo are revealed to fire reporters for reporting the truth or their owners or editors
revealed to go with known falsehood to keep their stock up, that will cost them. Their consumers won't dismiss the revelation as a 
right-wing lie or otherwise ignore it. As I've said before, the right and mainstream news are not mirror images of one another. They are
structurally very different, operating according to different standards; that may obscured if both are reduced to the same market
logic.

The momentary focus on the Times misreporting seems to me more driven by an effort to discredit the best options* we currently have
for news and commentary.  That critique doesn't seem much interested in the larger embedment of news organizations in a national culture with
national filters. That's what's hurting us most right now in reporting about the current Middle East conflict, as it did in 2001 and 2003.



*I know you like Reuters. It's a good base. But I think commentary and background are important too, the kind provided by investigative
reporting. 

[GreenDragon]

(10-29-2023, 06:57 PM)pally Wrote: Kelsey Conway is the Bengals beat reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer

KellyAnne Conway, former Trump advisor, deals in alternative facts

LOL

Thank you!

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

An interesting contrast here, as Time magazine reports on the murder of an elderly Jewish man who was struck on the head with a megaphone by a pro-Palestinian protestor.

Jewish man in California dies after confrontation during Israel-Hamas War protests https://t.co/abB0he7cgS

— TIME (@TIME) November 7, 2023

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Odd that the Time headline reads, "Jewish man in California dies after confrontation during Israel-Hamas War protests". Why? Because the death has already been ruled a homicide.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/jewish-man-killed-altercation-dueling-protests-israel-hamas/story?id=104680005

So why would the NYT rush to print a direct claim from Hamas with no verification, but Time would deliberately omit and mislead people with such a vague headline when the facts of the case are already known? I wonder why Time would do that? Never wonder why people mistrust the main stream media and never wonder why people accuse them of having an agenda seperate from actually telling the truth.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Not surprisingly no response from our resident apologist on the above murder. Yet, he was quick to attempt to capitalize on the murder of a child to tar right wing radio as the culprit in another killing. I suppose retreat is the best option considering the above will almost certainly not be the last incident of this nature.

[StoneTheCrow]

(11-10-2023, 07:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not surprisingly no response from our resident apologist on the above murder. Yet, he was quick to attempt to capitalize on the murder of a child to tar right wing radio as the culprit in another killing. I suppose retreat is the best option considering the above will almost certainly not be the last incident of this nature.

Silence is violence SMDH!

[GMDino]

(11-10-2023, 07:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not surprisingly no response from our resident apologist on the above murder.  Yet, he was quick to attempt to capitalize on the murder of a child to tar right wing radio as the culprit in another killing.  I suppose retreat is the best option considering the above will almost certainly not be the last incident of this nature.

Maybe they don't want to be taken out of contest and "called out" in your signature? 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-10-2023, 07:08 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Silence is violence SMDH!

The radical left eating each other has been a very interesting, albeit sad, byproduct of recent events.

(11-10-2023, 07:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: Maybe they don't want to be taken out of contest and "called out" in your signature? 

Maybe don't support Hamas and constantly denigrate Israel while never condemning their adversaries?  Like I said, tying yourself in knots.

[JustWinBaby]

(11-07-2023, 06:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Odd that the Time headline reads, "Jewish man in California dies after confrontation during Israel-Hamas War protests".  Why?  Because the death has already been ruled a homicide.

I saw other headlines, plural, that omitted "confrontation" and simply said something along the lines of "Jewish man dies at protest", as if it might have been a heart attack or something.

And, yes, I thought it was odd.  I imagine if the Hamas protestor had been an off-duty cop it may have presented something of a conundrum for the press...