Is it OK for biological males to compete against women?

[*jason*]

(06-24-2023, 03:28 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Fail, your examples are pointing out competitors who elected to compete beyond their designated division.  No one asked these women if they wanted to compete against biological males.  I remember a story about a transfemale powerlifter who was shattering records as a woman, yet was ranked down near #100 when he was competing as a male.  That's not electing to level up, but rather than electing to bully a lesser talent pool.

I fall on the side that trans women shouldn't be competing in women's sports. Out of curiosity though... That powerlifter that was ranked 100 as a man... 100 out of how many? Not terribly relevant, I was just wondering. I also kinda wish there were more female voices on here to contribute. It's a bunch of dudes and pally. Just sort of irks me when men are telling women what they want and what's fair for them.

[GMDino]

I was thinking as I was driving this morning about this topic.

I wonder, without an internet search, how many of you could name five of the top ten women swimmers in college right now?

How many of you could name more than two trans athletes competing against women right now?

My educated guess is a sum total of zero of those complaining about what is "fair" in women's sports could do either because they don't really care about women's sports or the women who compete in them.  What they care about is finding some way, any way, to remove trans people from the public eye.

It started with the tried and true "they are grooming our children!!" which they are not.  Plus the same people griping about the grooming will rush to defend the church every time a new thread is posted about the latest church scandal involving the actual grooming and abuse of children.  They will ask "why do you only talk about Christians?!?!  What about OTHER religions?!?!" As if other religions doing the same is some kind of defense.

Meanwhile a Drag Queen Library Day is treated as NAMBLA meeting that must be met with protests and quick condemnation!

We are fed a series of "what ifs" about trans people and drag queens while there is solid proof (and much of it) of actual grooming and abuse in this country mostly by white "straight" men in position of power such as school administrators, elected officials and police.

For them the exception proves the rule if they can find one incidence of a trans person doing something they consider "wrong"...but an avalanche of proof for the other side is just "liberal think".

So we have moved to what is "fair" in women's sports based on one or two examples, sports that none of these people watch or even cared about until they saw an opportunity to make a political point out of it.

Many of us have said it should be up to the governing body to make those decisions, not the federal government or state governments.  In fact the one example they have, Lia Thomas, was competing because she followed the NCAA rules for trans people and had been transitioning for a year.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-24-2023, 03:45 PM)jason Wrote: I fall on the side that trans women shouldn't be competing in women's sports. Out of curiosity though... That powerlifter that was ranked 100 as a man... 100 out of how many? Not terribly relevant, I was just wondering. I also kinda wish there were more female voices on here to contribute. It's a bunch of dudes and pally. Just sort of irks me when men are telling women what they want and what's fair for them.

I apologize for not having the hard data to support that claim.  I am a promoter of the sport of Strongman at the amature level, another fellow who trains people at the same facility hosts sanctioned powerlifting meets.  This gentleman was commenting that the lifter in question was ranked back near #100 in NCAA as a male athlete, and then went on to shatter records while competing as a female.  Like I said, I don't have the hard data on hand, but a quick google search on the topic should provide ample results.

[GMDino]

(06-25-2023, 03:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I apologize for not having the hard data to support that claim.  I am a promoter of the sport of Strongman at the amature level, another fellow who trains people at the same facility hosts sanctioned powerlifting meets.  This gentleman was commenting that the lifter in question was ranked back near #100 in NCAA as a male athlete, and then went on to shatter records while competing as a female.  Like I said, I don't have the hard data on hand, but a quick google search on the topic should provide ample results.

Don't worry boss...we'll do the work for you.

Now I couldn't find some trans power lifter who went from #100 (or so) to "shattering records" but it could be the person mention in this story who had her record broken by a man who didn't like trans people competing against women and who (probably) did have the legal right (under the rules of the competition) to have lifted as a "woman".

https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/male-powerlifter-enters-womens-event-breaks-record/

Quote:A bearded pro powerlifter entered a women’s competition in Canada — and smashed a record held by a trans lifter who was watching.


Avi Silverberg, the head coach for Team Canada Powerlifting for more than 10 years, entered Saturday’s Heroes Classic tournament in Lethbridge, Alberta, after identifying as a female.

Video shared by athlete activist group the Independent Council on Women’s Sports (ICONS) shows him walking up to the platform still fully bearded and wearing a regular men’s singlet.

He then casually bench-pressed nearly 370 pounds — beating the current Alberta women’s record by almost 100 pounds.
That record — 275 pounds — was held by trans athlete Anne Andres, who was seen watching Silverberg while volunteering at the event.

Andres also holds the Alberta women’s record for the deadlift, at 544 pounds — giving her the local record for the total of all three lifts, lifting a combined 1,245 pounds.

The trans lifter won eight of nine competitions entered in the women’s category over the last four years, ICONS said.
Avi Silverberg entered Saturday’s meet while claiming to identify as female.Instagram / @everydayavi

As Silverberg broke her record, Andres stood off to the edge of the platform area, only strolling back on after the male lifter walked off.
ICONS said Silverberg “mocked the discriminatory [Canadian Powerlifting Union] policy” that allows competitors to register for events under their “gender identity and expression, rather than their sex or gender,” vowing “no consequences” for doing so.

CPU’s trans policy states that an individual “should be able to participate in the gender with which they identify and not be subject to requirements for disclosure of personal information beyond those required of cisgender athletes.”
Silverberg seemed to effortlessly smash the female record.Twitter / @icons_women
It also states: “Nor should there be any requirement for hormonal therapy or surgery.”

However, the union’s competition registration policy states that a competitor’s “government-issued photo identification (excluding Youth lifters) must be verified during the weigh-in or equipment check, including date of birth, province, and gender at all competitions.”

It is unclear if Silverberg presented a government-issued ID identifying him as a female or was required to.
Transgender lifter Anne Andres was at the event as the male pro smashed her record.Twitter / @icons_women

Repeated messages left for CPU’s board of directors and executive staff were not returned Thursday.

Silverberg is among those executive members, listed on the CPU’s website as the vice president in Alberta.

He did not immediately agree to requests to be interviewed.

Either way, according to ICONS, “what Avi so obviously points out is that policies allowing men access to women’s sports completely remove any integrity in women’s competitions.”

“It doesn’t matter how Avi expresses himself or perceives himself. He clearly does not belong in women’s sport, and neither does any other male regardless of their motivation for wanting to participate.”

Silverberg, who is also an online coach and powerlifting columnist, has not directly addressed the competition.


However, Andres posted a series of lengthy video responses calling him “a coward and a bigot” with “malicious intent.”

Still, in one clip, she openly admitted that “maybe my participation isn’t necessarily fair — you know, there’s science, whatever.”

In another follow-up, she said it was not her problem, however, because she “transitioned almost 20 years ago.”

“I got surgery — I can prove without any doubt whatsoever that I have gone through every step, which means whatever governing body decides to make decisions, I will pass that test.”

“I actually care about women in sport because I AM a woman in sport,” she wrote alongside one video.

Bodybuilding influencer Greg Doucette was among those highlighting the episode, noting how ludicrous it was for a man to so easily compete in a supposed drug-free event despite way higher testosterone.

“I think this proves a point. If a guy can just show up and then set the … record, doesn’t that prove that it’s not fair? So how long before the powers-that-be suddenly wake up, smell the coffee and understand that if you’re born a female you’re not gonna be as powerful, as strong … as if you were born a male.”
1074

What do you think? Post a comment.

“I’m stating facts,” Doucette said of the “unfair advantage” — comparing it to the advantage a woman would have if she entered a drag queen show against men.

“To me the answer is simple — we add a separate category, a new category, the trans category,” he said, saying it is especially important for combat sports where women competitors could get injured.

tl;dr The man did that thing y'all are afraid someone will do and just announced he was a woman and broke the records, despite (probably) not following the actual rules.  The record he broke was of a transperson who transitioned 20 years ago.

So maybe that's who your friend was talking about?  Maybe ask them so we have more clarity.

B

[SunsetBengal]

(06-25-2023, 03:57 PM)GMDino Wrote: Don't worry boss...we'll do the work for you.

Now I couldn't find some trans power lifter who went from #100 (or so) to "shattering records" but it could be the person mention in this story who had her record broken by a man who didn't like trans people competing against women and who (probably) did have the legal right (under the rules of the competition) to have lifted as a "woman".

https://nypost.com/2023/03/30/male-powerlifter-enters-womens-event-breaks-record/



tl;dr The man did that thing y'all are afraid someone will do and just announced he was a woman and broke the records, despite (probably) not following the actual rules.  The record he broke was of a transperson who transitioned 20 years ago.

So maybe that's who your friend was talking about?  Maybe ask them so we have more clarity.

B

Yep, it's just that easy.  If the rule says "identify as" as opposed to "genetically being", you're going to continue seeing such, so long as genetically born Women keep having the sanctity of their division violated.  If they want to host a trans Division, let them compete there, but science dictates that there are advantages that humans born as male have over female when it comes to athletic competition.

And, my perspective comes from a point of "what's fair to most", rather than "we must accommodate everyone's whims", because allowing biological men to compete against women is unfair to a lot more biological women that it is fair to a very small number of trans women.

[GMDino]

(06-25-2023, 04:08 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yep, it's just that easy.  If the rule says "identify as" as opposed to "genetically being", you're going to continue seeing such, so long as genetically born Women keep having the sanctity of their division violated.  If they want to host a trans Division, let them compete there, but science dictates that there are advantages that humans born as male have over female when it comes to athletic competition.

And, my perspective comes from a point of "what's fair to most", rather than "we must accommodate everyone's whims", because allowing biological men to compete against women is unfair to a lot more biological women that it is fair to a very small number of trans women.

OOOh...no.  Not "that easy".

Quote:However, the union’s competition registration policy states that a competitor’s “government-issued photo identification (excluding Youth lifters) must be verified during the weigh-in or equipment check, including date of birth, province, and gender at all competitions.”


It is unclear if Silverberg presented a government-issued ID identifying him as a female or was required to.

I'm sure you can tell us which of the top ten female Canadian powerlifters were harmed, but more to the point they were harmed by a man not following the rules.  Not by a transgender person.

[SunsetBengal]

(06-25-2023, 04:26 PM)GMDino Wrote: OOOh...no.  Not "that easy".



I'm sure you can tell us which of the top ten female Canadian powerlifters were harmed, but more to the point they were harmed by a man not following the rules.  Not by a transgender person.

Seeing how Silverson has been Head Coach of Team Canada powerlifting for over 10 years, I'm sure that the female members of the team were absolutely behind him in his "demonstration".  (I see you conveniently cut that part out of that article..)

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2023, 04:51 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Seeing how Silverson has been Head Coach of Team Canada powerlifting for over 10 years, I'm sure that the female members of the team were absolutely behind him in his "demonstration".  (I see you conveniently cut that part out of that article..)

It's extremely amusing that he's using a perfect example of the inconsistencies inherent in his position to prove what he thinks is a point in his favor.  That's what happens when you replace logical thought with blind adherence to ideology.  

[Millhouse]

No

Definitely No

[Luvnit2]

(06-25-2023, 04:26 PM)GMDino Wrote: OOOh...no.  Not "that easy".



I'm sure you can tell us which of the top ten female Canadian powerlifters were harmed, but more to the point they were harmed by a man not following the rules.  Not by a transgender person.

I urge you and all Democrats to continue to go all in for men to compete against women in sports. 

As a conservative, I hope our party goes all in denouncing this unfair practice.

I could less about trans people changing from women to men or vice versa. But, i support girls and women athlete's right to compete against biological women, dress in locker rooms with biological women.

Let trans athletes compete against other trans athletes, start their own competitions.

[*pally*]

(06-25-2023, 06:04 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I urge you and all Democrats to continue to go all in for men to compete against women in sports. 

As a conservative, I hope our party goes all in denouncing this unfair practice.

I could less about trans people changing from women to men or vice versa. But, i support girls and women athlete's right to compete against biological women, dress in locker rooms with biological women.

Let trans athletes compete against other trans athletes, start their own competitions.

It is not the place of the government to regulate sports regardless of anyone's personal opinion on trans athletes.  Let the entities set up to regulate sports, in every other aspect, set the regulations for participation.

what's next, Congress writing rules for the NFL?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2023, 06:57 PM)pally Wrote: It is not the place of the government to regulate sports regardless of anyone's personal opinion on trans athletes.  Let the entities set up to regulate sports, in every other aspect, set the regulations for participation.

Sure it is.  If women are being discriminated against then that violates Federal law.  Forcing women to play against biological males as a condition of participation is the textbook definition of such discrimination.  That's like an organization saying we don't allow gay people to participate in our sport/league/competition and the government has no right to interfere.  Or are you in favor of that type of discrimination as it allows the entities to "set the regulations for participation''?  Or, better yet, just eliminate gender based separation in sport.  That'll solve all of these problems won't it?

Quote:what's next, Congress writing rules for the NFL?

Do you really think there aren't already laws in place that regulate how the NFL operates?  

[*pally*]

(06-25-2023, 07:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sure it is.  If women are being discriminated against then that violates Federal law.  Forcing women to play against biological males as a condition of participation is the textbook definition of such discrimination.  That's like an organization saying we don't allow gay people to participate in our sport/league/competition and the government has no right to interfere.  Or are you in favor of that type of discrimination as it allows the entities to "set the regulations for participation''?  Or, better yet, just eliminate gender based separation in sport.  That'll solve all of these problems won't it?



Do you really think there aren't already laws in place that regulate how the NFL operates?  

There is already a law in place to deal with discrimination issues....Title IX.

As far as the NFL, the have an anti-trust exemption that covers how the NFL business is run.  But, congress or legislatures don't set the rules for who can play and what rules they play under...which is what they are doing for female sports.

And considering the conservatives and Republicans are supposed for small government and virulently against ANY anti-discrimination laws, why does this garner an exception? Oh year because it falls into their obsession with human genitalia and sex

[GMDino]

(06-25-2023, 06:04 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I urge you and all Democrats to continue to go all in for men to compete against women in sports. 

As a conservative, I hope our party goes all in denouncing this unfair practice.

I could less about trans people changing from women to men or vice versa. But, i support girls and women athlete's right to compete against biological women, dress in locker rooms with biological women.

Let trans athletes compete against other trans athletes, start their own competitions.

You posted a fallacy.

Not one person here has said what you wrote.

To a person we said that the governing bodies should decide on who can compete.

And obviously care because you are all over these threads explaining why they are bad for society.

At least be honest about it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2023, 07:11 PM)pally Wrote: There is already a law in place to deal with discrimination issues....Title IX.

Uhm hmm, and why was Title IX passed?  Also, are you saying that Title IX is the definitive, last possible word on this subject and will never have to be updated or modified?  It's a rather rare law that is perfectly written the first go around.

Quote:As far as the NFL, the have an anti-trust exemption that covers how the NFL business is run.  But, congress or legislatures don't set the rules for who can play and what rules they play under...which is what they are doing for female sports.

Sure they do.  Can the NFL bar gay players?  Can the NFL require the players to wear metal spikes on their pads?  Can the NFL force an injured player to play or be cut?  There are a slew of ways laws govern how the NFL operates.

Quote:And considering the conservatives and Republicans are supposed for small government and virulently against ANY anti-discrimination laws, why does this garner an exception?   Oh year because it falls into their obsession with  human genitalia and sex

Small government doesn't mean no government.  You think it's perfectly fine for a 235 pound biological male to play contact sports against biological women.  I don't, because it's patently, and obviously unfair to the women.  You project your need for this to be about transphobia because to think otherwise would expose you to the horrible truth.  That being that you're advocating for the essential erasure of women's sports.  Not to mention forcing women to share a locker room with a person with a penis.  But you do you.  Just don't expect others to allow you to label them as phobic for standing up for basic fairness and common sense.

[GMDino]

(06-25-2023, 04:51 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Seeing how Silverson has been Head Coach of Team Canada powerlifting for over 10 years, I'm sure that the female members of the team were absolutely behind him in his "demonstration".  (I see you conveniently cut that part out of that article..)

I'd suggest rethinking that....I didn't cut a damn thing out of that article.  That's a lie.

[Mickeypoo]

I doubt this is going to help their cause........

https://www.newsweek.com/video-drag-marchers-chanting-viral-1808870

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2023, 07:41 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'd suggest rethinking that....I didn't cut a damn thing out of that article.  That's a lie.

I have to agree, I didn't see anything Dino omitted from the original article.  I still think it's hilarious you think that article helps your position though.

[*pally*]

(06-25-2023, 07:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Uhm hmm, and why was Title IX passed?  Also, are you saying that Title IX is the definitive, last possible word on this subject and will never have to be updated or modified?  It's a rather rare law that is perfectly written the first go around.



Sure they do.  Can the NFL bar gay players?  Can the NFL require the players to wear metal spikes on their pads?  Can the NFL force an injured player to play or be cut?  There are a slew of ways laws govern how the NFL operates.


Small government doesn't mean no government.  You think it's perfectly fine for a 235 pound biological male to play contact sports against biological women.  I don't, because it's patently, and obviously unfair to the women.  You project your need for this to be about transphobia because to think otherwise would expose you to the horrible truth.  That being that you're advocating for the essential erasure of women's sports.  Not to mention forcing women to share a locker room with a person with a penis.  But you do you.  Just don't expect others to allow you to label them as phobic for standing up for basic fairness and common sense.

I don't think, in this thread, that I have advocated for anything other than leaving the regulation to the sports federations. I have said nothing about the participants other than repeatedly pointing out, that the outrage, for some reason, is only aimed at transgendered women and not transgendered men.  And of course, pointing out that the outrage is way out of proportion to the number of people affected.  

It would be nice if all the people who were outraged over this topic would show the same level of emotion over the actual daily discrimination and hostility women experience rather than pulling out a singular issue that in day-to-day life only affects a couple of hundred people

[grampahol]

Some of you are off your nut.. I have to compete with my wife every morning for the first cup of coffee. Where's the outrage there?