Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Dill]

(05-02-2024, 07:33 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hmm, I guess freeing all Palestinian prisoners doesn't include freeing convicted terrorists.  We've gone over this before.  What I am acknowledging is the shockingly ignorant character of these people, including yourself who are inadvertently or willfully ignorant of the Hamas strategy to maximize civilian casualties to get simpletons in the west to be sympathetic to their "plight".

Hamas is playing you and your fellow lefties like a fiddle, grinning and raping all the while.  You're a useful tool to them, and that's it.  Not many things sadder than someone who allows themselves to be used by rapists and murderers.

As a matter of fact, I have long been aware of what you call "Hamas' strategy" and can accurately summarize a number of professional-quality analyses of it, such as this 2019 report from StratCom COE https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf, and other uses of "lawfare."

Where we differ is that I also understand 

1) how one-sided such analyses tend to be, ignoring Israeli use of Palestinians for involuntary human shields, and
 
2) how Israel rejects recommendations for how to handle that problem within the limits of humanitarian law, while appealing to this "well-known Hamas' strategy"
to explain away indiscriminate bombing and legitimize gunning down civilians in free fire zones.

I.e., the so-called "Hamas strategy" is also a mainstay of IDF/Israeli propaganda--that there is no "plight" beyond what Hamas has created. It's their fault if Israel bombs a an apartment building full of civilians and arrests thousands without charge. And it requires Western audiences, especially in the US, to think that Hamas somehow has a better, more effective propaganda machine and press savvy than does Israel, whose officials are interviewed by our press every day and has
lobbying organizations composed of US citizens. 

That's how we get to a point where those protesting Israeli war crimes are called "tools"; but not those giving the IDF cover.  

But where we primarily differ is on the issue of universal human rights. You don't have a problem with the Israeli military occupation or the dispossession it protects.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-02-2024, 08:42 PM)Dill Wrote: Hissy fit.   That didn't "alter" your post. The quotes were not used to attribute a quote to you.

The left can't meme.

Quote:LOL would you say that "plenty" support Hamas?

I would say a not insignificant number do.  Hence my using that exact wording.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-02-2024, 08:44 PM)Dill Wrote: As a matter of fact, I have long been aware of what you call "Hamas' strategy" and can accurately summarize a number of professional-quality analyses of it, such as this 2019 report from StratCom COE https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf, and other uses of "lawfare."

Where we differ is that I also understand 

1) how one-sided such analyses tend to be, ignoring Israeli use of Palestinians for involuntary human shields, and
 
2) how Israel rejects recommendations for how to handle that problem within the limits of humanitarian law, while appealing to this "well-known Hamas' strategy"
to explain away indiscriminate bombing and legitimize gunning down civilians in free fire zones.

I.e., the so-called "Hamas strategy" is also a mainstay of IDF/Israeli propaganda--that there is no "plight" beyond what Hamas has created. It's their fault if Israel bombs a an apartment building full of civilians and arrests thousands without charge. And it requires Western audiences, especially in the US, to think that Hamas somehow has a better, more effective propaganda machine and press savvy than does Israel, whose officials are interviewed by our press every day and has
lobbying organizations composed of US citizens. 

That's how we get to a point where those protesting Israeli war crimes are called "tools"; but not those giving the IDF cover.  

But where we primarily differ is on the issue of universal human rights. You don't have a problem with the Israeli military occupation or the dispossession it protects.

Interesting that you would post a source on Hamas using human shields and then immediately discount it.



From said source.

Hamas is an Islamist militant group based in the Gaza Strip, which has been designated by the US, the EU and other countries as a terrorist group. Hamas has been using human shields in conflicts with Israel since 2007. Although the definition of human shields is not consistent among states and inter-governmental organisations, the Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC) states the war crime of using human shields encompasses “utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas, or military forces immune from military operations.”


1 Hamas relies on the Israeli government’s aim to minimise collateral damage, and is also aware of the West‘s sensitivity towards civilian casualties. Hamas’ use of human shields is therefore likely aimed at minimising their own vulnerabilities by limiting the Israeli Defense Forces’ (IDF) freedom of action. It is also aimed at gaining diplomatic and public opinion-related leverage, by presenting Israel and the IDF as an aggressor that indiscriminately strikes civilians.


2 Hamas’ most common uses of human shields include: Firing rockets, artillery, and mortars from or in proximity to heavily populated civilian areas, often from or near facilities which should be protected according to the Geneva Convention (e.g. schools, hospitals, or mosques). Locating military or security-related infrastructures such as HQs, bases, armouries, access routes, lathes, or defensive positions within or in proximity to civilian areas. 


3 Protecting terrorists’ houses and military facilities, or rescuing terrorists who were besieged or warned by the IDF.


4 Combating the IDF from or in proximity to residential and commercial areas, including using civilians for intelligence gathering missions. By engaging in these acts, Hamas employs a win-win scenario: if indeed the IDF uses kinetic power, and the number of civilian causalities surges, Hamas can use that as a weapon in the lawfare it conducts. 


5 It would be able to accuse the IDF (and Israel) of committing war crimes, which in turn could result in the imposition of a wide array of sanctions. On the other hand, if the IDF limits its use of military power in Gaza to avoid collateral damage, Hamas will be less vulnerable to Israeli attacks, and thereby able to protect its assets while continuing to fight.


Underlined especially significant.  All of this sounds startlingly familiar.  But unfortunately they got it wrong in this last bit.

Hamas’ growing strategic distress in the face of recent geopolitical developments will probably push the organisation towards a more pragmatic strategy in the near future. However, the movement is simultaneously preparing itself for yet another round of armed conflict with Israel. If this indeed happens, and in light of the success of the human shield practice, there is every reason to believe Hamas will continue resorting to the use of civilians as human shields. 


This source dramatically underestimated the idiocy of the radical left in the West.  Sadly so.

[StoneTheCrow]

(05-02-2024, 09:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The left can't meme.



I would say a not insignificant number do.  Hence my using that exact wording.

Sen. @JohnFetterman (D-PA): “The protesters at Columbia demonstrated that there are two factions of the protesters — there’s the pro-Hamas, and then there’s the really pro-Hamas."https://t.co/FIcwvjBLD1

— Josh Kraushaar (@JoshKraushaar) May 2, 2024

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-02-2024, 09:33 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote:

Sen. @JohnFetterman (D-PA): “The protesters at Columbia demonstrated that there are two factions of the protesters — there’s the pro-Hamas, and then there’s the really pro-Hamas."https://t.co/FIcwvjBLD1

— Josh Kraushaar (@JoshKraushaar) May 2, 2024

Fetterman becoming a favorite of mine was absolutely not on my 2024 bingo card.

[StoneTheCrow]

(05-02-2024, 09:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Fetterman becoming a favorite of mine was absolutely not on my 2024 bingo card.

Agree, and that could be a different topic altogether (looking at you, Bob Mendez…awfully quiet otherwise about that guy).

Anyway…

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-02-2024, 09:56 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Agree, and that could be a different topic altogether (looking at you, Bob Mendez…awfully quiet otherwise about that guy).

Anyway…

Dude, everyone has tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in foreign stamped gold bars.

[StoneTheCrow]

(05-02-2024, 10:14 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dude, everyone has tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in foreign stamped gold bars.

And we’d all be quietly getting away with it too if it wasn’t for that pesky PA Senator Gargamel!

[Dill]

(05-02-2024, 09:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Interesting that you would post a source on Hamas using human shields and then immediately discount it.

This source dramatically underestimated the idiocy of the radical left in the West.  Sadly so.

No need to quote the source since I know it, and others, well.  

And the history of the "lawfare" strategies which have followed, on both sides, much better than you, apparently.

You blew right past my mention of how Israel uses the "Hamas strategy," or oversimplified versions thereof, for their own propaganda,
which you absorb and repeat uncritically. 

That' why you call those protesting Israeli war crimes "tools,"

while giving the IDF cover for war crimes.   Like a sensible radical left would support dispossession and occupation.

[Dill]

(05-02-2024, 09:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I would say a not insignificant number do.  Hence my using that exact wording.

Is a "not insignificant number" more or less exact than "plenty"?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-02-2024, 11:19 PM)Dill Wrote: No need to quote the source since I know it, and others, well.  

And the history of the "lawfare" strategies which have followed, on both sides, much better than you, apparently.

You blew right past my mention of how Israel uses the "Hamas strategy," or oversimplified versions thereof, for their own propaganda,
which you absorb and repeat uncritically. 

That' why you call those protesting Israeli war crimes "tools,"

while giving the IDF cover for war crimes.   Like a sensible radical left would support dispossession and occupation.

The US has stated that Israel has not committed any "war crimes".  Seeing your deference to the Biden administration I'm going to have to point this out.

(05-02-2024, 11:21 PM)Dill Wrote: Is a "not insignificant number" more or less exact than "plenty"?

It's not an insignificant number.

[Dill]

(05-02-2024, 11:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The US has stated that Israel has not committed any "war crimes".  Seeing your deference to the Biden administration I'm going to have to point this out.

Lol guess the investigations can stop. Yours certainly has.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-02-2024, 11:49 PM)Dill Wrote: Lol guess the investigations can stop. Yours certainly has.

I don't work for the US State Department.

[Dill]

(05-01-2024, 07:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sounds like you are saying that when a more powerful group is in conflict with a less powerful group,
students can't really tell or aren't really interested in whether the more powerful group is actually oppressing
the less powerful group.  I wonder where you are getting that.
Seems to me the history of protests shows the students generally get it right.
-civil rights, Vietnam, Apartheid,

From paying attention.

Below you appear to grant the students were right about civil rights and Apartheid.
So in those cases, students figured out the more powerful group really was oppressing a less powerful group?

If "paying attention" led you to conclude students just assume, without justification, that the
more powerful group is the oppressor only because it is more powerful, then there must have been 
some times where you saw them protesting more powerful groups that weren't oppressors.

Vietnam maybe?

(05-01-2024, 07:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Were they right about Vietnam?  I'm sure the thousands of people tortured and sent to "reeducation" camps after the war might have a different opinion.
You keep trying to lump this is with the civil rights movement.  No one here, or pretty much anywhere, is buying it.   I'm sure the pro-Hamas protestor in the post your ignoring agrees with, though.  She also approved of 10/07/23 and thought it was a good thing.

I once knew an ARVN general who had been tiger-caged under Diem and then sent to a "reeducation camp" after the NV victory.
Seriously, I couldn't tell which he thought was worse. The reeducation was longer, but not life threatening.

So who were the "oppressors" in that war? Apparently the vast majority of Vietnamese thought the US and the gov. of South Vietnam were.
Most of the 2 million civilians who died would be of that opinion.

But American anti-communists would have been happy to sacrifice millions more to prevent their "oppression" by the Communists 
they would have elected to rule them if the US had allowed them to make their own choices in the first place.

Call that one a tie.  2-0-1 in favor of the students. But no evidence THEY are the ones who misread Oppressor/Oppressed relations.

(05-01-2024, 07:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You keep trying to lump this is with the civil rights movement.  No one here, or pretty much anywhere, is buying it.   I'm sure the pro-Hamas protestor in the post your ignoring agrees with, though.  She also approved of 10/07/23 and thought it was a good thing.

And yes I keep lumping the Palestinian dispossession in with the Civil Rights movement, because it is about how the Israeli state deprives 5 million
Palestinians of basic human rights.  But see that point you must first agree that Palestinians have basic human rights.

Speaking for everyone again. How do you know "no one here, or pretty much anywhere, is buying it"?

So why are there protests all over the world? Why has SA brought a genocide charge against Israel to the ICJ?

(05-01-2024, 07:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hmm, must have missed where the IDF did these things.  I couldn't miss when Hamas did it, because they happily broadcast it.  I notice you chose not to comment on the kidnapping and murder of infants.  I'd probably try and pretend it didn't happen too if I were delusional enough to be on your side of this issue.

I notice you didn't comment on the 13,000 children who have died in Gaza.

I was referring to the ethnic cleansing during the original dispossession. I'm not sure the Haganah or the IDF kidnapped people. Their goal was to get rid of them. But Stern and Irgun did kidnap people, and happily broadcast murder and rape; they even inflated the numbers to increase panic. At least 30 infants were murdered at Deir Yassin alone.  But I have explained this to you before. You didn't "miss" that. But down the memory hole, eh?

Now the UN is investigating credible reports of IDF sexual assaults against detained Palestinians, including many forms of torture and humiliation. Let's give them time to investigate their "anecdotes."

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-03-2024, 01:12 AM)Dill Wrote: Below you appear to grant the students were right about civil rights and Apartheid.
So in those cases, students figured out the more powerful group really was oppressing a less powerful group?

Sure.  Does that mean all such instances play out the same way?  If that was your conclusion that you clearly failed logic.  Which would explain a lot.

Quote:If "paying attention" led you to conclude students just assume, without justification, that the
more powerful group is the oppressor only because it is more powerful, then there must have been 
some times where you saw them protesting more powerful groups that weren't oppressors.

Yes, Israel and Hamas being the most recent example.

Quote:Vietnam maybe?

Was North Vietnam less powerful than the South?  Who invaded who again?

Quote:I once knew an ARVN general who had been tiger-caged under Diem and then sent to a "reeducation camp" after the NV victory.
Seriously, I couldn't tell which he thought was worse. The reeducation was longer, but not life threatening.

Fascinating.  My father, a two and half year year Vietnam vet was good friends with a ARVN helicopter pilot who wouldn't piss in the face of a Vietnamese communist if their eyebrows were on fire.  You protested a war my father lived.  Anecdotal evidence being what it is, I'm giving the edge to him.

Quote:So who were the "oppressors" in that war? Apparently the vast majority of Vietnamese thought the US and the gov. of South Vietnam were.
Most of the 2 million civilians who died would be of that opinion.

Is that so? A source would be nice, preferably one prior to the "reeducation camps".  I've lived next to the largest community of Vietnamese diaspora in the world (Westminster, CA) since 1986, I'm willing to bet I've talked to far more of them than you ever have.

Quote:But American anti-communists would have been happy to sacrifice millions more to prevent their "oppression" by the Communists 
they would have elected to rule them if the US had allowed them to make their own choices in the first place.

Seeing as communism is the most murderess form of government ever devised by man that's a rather safe assumption.  Are you a communist btw?

Quote:Call that one a tie.  2-0-1 in favor of the students. But no evidence THEY are the ones who misread Oppressor/Oppressed relations.

Cool, again no predictor of future results.  Massively faulty logic on your part.  Again.

Quote:And yes I keep lumping the Palestinian dispossession in with the Civil Rights movement, because it is about how the Israeli state deprives 5 million
Palestinians of basic human rights.  But see that point you must first agree that Palestinians have basic human rights.

I don't recall MLK and his followers engaging in gang rape, mass murder and kidnapping and killing infants.  Did I miss that?

Quote:Speaking for everyone again. How do you know "no one here, or pretty much anywhere, is buying it"?

So why are there protests all over the world? Why has SA brought a genocide charge against Israel to the ICJ?

Because western liberal guilt is a pervasive and sadly inane ideology.  How do I know it's failing though?  I'm paying attention.

Quote:I notice you didn't comment on the 13,000 children who have died in Gaza.

What 13k?  The ones reported by the terrorist organization?

Quote:I was referring to the ethnic cleansing during the original dispossession.

Quote:I'm not sure the Haganah or the IDF kidnapped people. Their goal was to get rid of them. But Stern and Irgun did kidnap people, and happily broadcast murder and rape; they even inflated the numbers to increase panic. At least 30 infants were murdered at Deir Yassin alone.  But I have explained this to you before. You didn't "miss" that. But down the memory hole, eh?

Now the UN is investigating credible reports of IDF sexual assaults against detained Palestinians, including many forms of torture and humiliation. Let's give them time to investigate their "anecdotes."

Cool.  In the interim let's focus on your ignoring the actually broadcast gang rapes by Hamas.  No need to wait on the UN for proof of those.  

[Dill]

(05-03-2024, 02:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sure.  Does that mean all such instances play out the same way?  If that was your conclusion that you clearly failed logic.  Which would explain a lot.

I haven't "clearly failed" and nothing is "explained" until you come up with actual examples of nationwide student protests in which
students simply assumed that a more powerful group was an oppressor simply because it was more powerful and a weaker group
was oppressed simply because it was weaker. Lacking that the bolded is just a wish.

Still students 2-0-1;  SSF 0-0-1.

(05-03-2024, 02:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:If "paying attention" led you to conclude students just assume, without justification, that the

more powerful group is the oppressor only because it is more powerful, then there must have been 
some times where you saw them protesting more powerful groups that weren't oppressors.

Yes, Israel and Hamas being the most recent example.

So this is your example? The country which drove the Palestinians off their land and has exerted military control over 5 million of
them for three generations now is not an "oppressor"? Students are only protesting because they think Palestinians are weaker, 
not because Gaza has suffered 100,000 civilian casualties and is on the verge of starvation because Israel controls its food supply?

This looks like willful denial of facts on the ground. You say you don't support ethnic cleansing. Apparently you are not against it, either.

[Dill]

(05-03-2024, 02:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: And yes I keep lumping the Palestinian dispossession in with the Civil Rights movement, because it is about how the Israeli state deprives 5 million
Palestinians of basic human rights.  But see that point you must first agree that Palestinians have basic human rights.

I don't recall MLK and his followers engaging in gang rape, mass murder and kidnapping and killing infants.  Did I miss that?

So is civil rights history limited to King? It's quite possible that white women were raped during slave rebellions, like Nat turner's. Turner, by the way, killed his master and his wife and children with an ax. Then went on to "mass murder" some 70 more whites. 

But I'd still say Turner and his slaves were the oppressed. Do you think they were not? 
Am I "mitigating" and "apologizing" forTurner's crimes by saying slavery was wrong?

If MLK had engaged in gang rape, mass murder, and kidnapping and killing infants, segregation would still be wrong, right?
And Blacks living under it would still have been oppressed, right?

Your constant return to gang rape and mass murder--but only on Oct 7 and only by Palestinians (not just Hamas)--looks designed to obfuscate the primary
issue, which is the occupation before Oct 7 and now the Gaza War.  It's become openly defensive, a desperate high ground that requires blinders to protect.

Just as segregation would still be wrong and blacks oppressed by it if MLK did rape and mass murder, so is the occupation and indiscriminate warfare,
despite what Hamas did.

(05-03-2024, 02:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Speaking for everyone again. How do you know "no one here, or pretty much anywhere, is buying it"?
So why are there protests all over the world? Why has SA brought a genocide charge against Israel to the ICJ?

Because western liberal guilt is a pervasive and sadly inane ideology.  How do I know it's failing though?  I'm paying attention.

Your impressions aren't evidence. So you don't know and don't generally take much care to make your statements accurate.
(BTW to what degree is "white guilt" is a construct deployed to the ends of white supremacy?)

(05-03-2024, 02:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I notice you didn't comment on the 13,000 children who have died in Gaza.

What 13k?  The ones reported by the terrorist organization?
Cool.  In the interim let's focus on your ignoring the actually broadcast gang rapes by Hamas.  No need to wait on the UN for proof of those.  

So no 13k?  This is not careful, skeptical vetting of sources, just denial.  I haven't denied Hamas/Palestinian rapes.

No need to wait for any UN proof of dispossession and occupation either. That's also "actually broadcast."

You say you don't "support" ethnic cleansing, but I'm not seeing any evidence you are actually against it,
at least not if Israel is the cleanser. You cannot even bring yourself to call it "oppression" and the cleansed "oppressed."

Lol not a bit of "white guilt" in you, for sure.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-03-2024, 05:28 PM)Dill Wrote: I haven't "clearly failed" and nothing is "explained" until you come up with actual examples of nationwide student protests in which
students simply assumed that a more powerful group was an oppressor simply because it was more powerful and a weaker group
was oppressed simply because it was weaker. Lacking that the bolded is just a wish.

Still students 2-0-1;  SSF 0-0-1.

Why would the students get a W for the civil rights and apartheid protests and not me?  

Quote:So this is your example? The country which drove the Palestinians off their land and has exerted military control over 5 million of
them for three generations now is not an "oppressor"? Students are only protesting because they think Palestinians are weaker, 
not because Gaza has suffered 100,000 civilian casualties and is on the verge of starvation because Israel controls its food supply?

This looks like willful denial of facts on the ground. You say you don't support ethnic cleansing. Apparently you are not against it, either.

Yes, Dill.  When you start a war and lose it badly there are consequences.  The Palestinians, and others, started shit and got their ass handed to them.  If they weren't such rabid Jew haters and just let Israel chill in 1948, and beyond, they wouldn't be in this position now.  I have little sympathy when the aggressors of multiple wars get their asses kicked.  What country was backing them during those wars btw?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-03-2024, 06:12 PM)Dill Wrote: So is civil rights history limited to King? It's quite possible that white women were raped during slave rebellions, like Nat turner's. Turner, by the way, killed his master and his wife and children with an ax. Then went on to "mass murder" some 70 more whites. 

But I'd still say Turner and his slaves were the oppressed. Do you think they were not? 
Am I "mitigating" and "apologizing" forTurner's crimes by saying slavery was wrong?

They sure were.  It doesn't change the fact that Turner was a piece of shit and what he did is indefensible.  But Turner wasn't the elected government of a group of people either.  The first in a string of poor analogies for you.

Quote:If MLK had engaged in gang rape, mass murder, and kidnapping and killing infants, segregation would still be wrong, right?
And Blacks living under it would still have been oppressed, right?

Segregation would still be wrong, and if MLK handled his business like your buddies it would likely still exist.

Quote:Your constant return to gang rape and mass murder--but only on Oct 7 and only by Palestinians (not just Hamas)--looks designed to obfuscate the primary
issue, which is the occupation before Oct 7 and now the Gaza War.  It's become openly defensive, a desperate high ground that requires blinders to protect.

I'm not stuck on 10/07, Hamas has been garbage pieces of shit far longer than that.

Quote:Just as segregation would still be wrong and blacks oppressed by it if MLK did rape and mass murder, so is the occupation and indiscriminate warfare,
despite what Hamas did.

Except they're not the same, or even comparable.

Quote:Your impressions aren't evidence. So you don't know and don't generally take much care to make your statements accurate.
(BTW to what degree is "white guilt" is a construct deployed to the ends of white supremacy?)

My statements are clear to anyone interested in actually reading them.

Quote:So no 13k?  This is not careful, skeptical vetting of sources, just denial.  I haven't denied Hamas/Palestinian rapes.

No, you just excuse and mitigate them

Quote:No need to wait for any UN proof of dispossession and occupation either. That's also "actually broadcast."

As little as I trust our own government I trust the UN far less.  I don't care what they find or conclude.  

Quote:You say you don't "support" ethnic cleansing, but I'm not seeing any evidence you are actually against it,
at least not if Israel is the cleanser. You cannot even bring yourself to call it "oppression" and the cleansed "oppressed."

Like I said, it's hard to feel bad for the bully when they get punched in the mouth.

Quote:Lol not a bit of "white guilt" in you, for sure.

Indeed.  

[Dill]

(05-03-2024, 06:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But I'd still say Turner and his slaves were the oppressed. Do you think they were not? 
Am I "mitigating" and "apologizing" for Turner's crimes by saying slavery was wrong?

They sure were.  It doesn't change the fact that Turner was a piece of shit and what he did is indefensible.  But Turner wasn't the elected government of a group of people either.  The first in a string of poor analogies for you.

Well he sort of was an elected leader of a group.  "Turner was a piece of shit" is a value judgment, not a "fact." 
 Being enslaved is no defense for killing the masters family. Hard to tell whom you side with in this "poor analogy." 

(05-03-2024, 06:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:If MLK had engaged in gang rape, mass murder, and kidnapping and killing infants, segregation would still be wrong, right?
And Blacks living under it would still have been oppressed, right?

Segregation would still be wrong, and if MLK handled his business like your buddies it would likely still exist.

Possibly. But the question for you is, would students be wrong to protest segregation anyway?
Would they be wrong about whether the weaker group were oppressed? 

(05-03-2024, 06:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm not stuck on 10/07, Hamas has been garbage pieces of shit far longer than that.

Just as segregation would still be wrong and blacks oppressed by it if MLK did rape and mass murder, so is the occupation and indiscriminate warfare,
despite what Hamas did.

Except they're not the same, or even comparable.

You are stuck on 10/7. You repeatedly come back to it to condemn protests, 
and deflect the comparison any international lawyer would require to assess the legality of 
the occupation. It's all you got. 13k children dead? But Hamas rape! 

(05-03-2024, 06:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: My statements are clear to anyone interested in actually reading them.
No, you just excuse and mitigate them
As little as I trust our own government I trust the UN far less.  I don't care what they find or conclude.  
Like I said, it's hard to feel bad for the bully when they get punched in the mouth.
Indeed.   

Your statements are clear enough. They present your feelings as evidence and dodge accountability.
That's the issue. And you "trust" the US gov. just fine when they tell you what you want to hear.
That is finally your standard. It is emotional, not evidence-based reasoning.