Jeffrey Epstein Arrest

[CJD]

(07-12-2019, 02:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's highly unusual and definitely without recent historical precedent.  It's also definitely an indicator of Trump's chaotic and mercurial style of leadership.  I could potentially assume you already knew this and are fishing here, but I'm not quite that cynical.

It was not fishing. This forum is my main way of seeking out opposing talking points as I don't get all that much exposure to them otherwise, just due to the people I discuss politics with and the websites/channels I frequent outside of this forum (although I do read Fox News headlines and hot topics maybe once a week or when they pop up on my phone), so I'm not up to date on how conservatives feel at all times. But I do remember after the first 3 or 4 resignations (especially the Flynn one), the conservative talking point I heard was something along the lines of "eh, resignations are not a big deal. Obama had plenty as well. It's just the nature of the business."

I never got a number when it came to how many resignations Obama's cabinet had, so I have no idea where that line was and, honestly, it's not something I am too eager to spend my time trying to dig out of the internet. Like I said, this whole thing used to be an incredibly boring affair. So I was just curious if that talking point of "resignations aren't a big deal" still remained among conservative circles at this point in the presidency or if there is beginning to be some concern growing.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-12-2019, 02:30 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: It was not fishing. This forum is my main way of seeking out opposing talking points as I don't get all that much exposure to them otherwise, just due to the people I discuss politics with and the websites/channels I frequent outside of this forum (although I do read Fox News headlines and hot topics maybe once a week or when they pop up on my phone), so I'm not up to date on how conservatives feel at all times. But I do remember after the first 3 or 4 resignations (especially the Flynn one), the conservative talking point I heard was something along the lines of "eh, resignations are not a big deal. Obama had plenty as well. It's just the nature of the business."

I never got a number when it came to how many resignations Obama's cabinet had, so I have no idea where that line was and, honestly, it's not something I am too eager to spend my time trying to dig out of the internet. Like I said, this whole thing used to be an incredibly boring affair. So I was just curious if that talking point of "resignations aren't a big deal" still remained among conservative circles at this point in the presidency or if there is beginning to be some concern growing.

Well, you've come to the wrong place then.  There aren't many conservatives who post in here on a frequent basis (and no, I'm not one of them) as a certain segment of this board tend to mock and ridicule them and hurl weighty accusations of racism or fascism their way. 

[CJD]

(07-12-2019, 02:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Well, you've come to the wrong place then.  There aren't many conservatives who post in here on a frequent basis (and no, I'm not one of them) as a certain segment of this board tend to mock and ridicule them and hurl weighty accusations of racism or fascism their way. 

Well, I've tried more conservative forums and just found them to be pretty toxic. I thought this one has a fair number of people willing to defend conservatives, but that may just be a false perception of mine. Who's to say?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-12-2019, 02:48 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Well, I've tried more conservative forums and just found them to be pretty toxic. I thought this one has a fair number of people willing to defend conservatives, but that may just be a false perception of mine. Who's to say?

It depends.  Most of the posting/threads done in this forum is done by the more far left leaning posters here.  Among the more conservative posters only bfine posts regularly with michaelsean being second.  I think most of the posters here are more middle of the road; myself, 'Zona, Benton, Bel and Bmore, with some leaning more left or right (mostly left IMO).

The reason you get fewer conservative voices here is because they are immediately labeled as racist Trump supporters by our loudest and most frequent posters.  It's similar to twitter in that regard, conservative voices are not welcomed or tolerated by the loudest and most demonstrative.  Consequently they post less, who wants to put up with that voluntarily?  Trump's election has polarized people to the point that for some you're either 100% against Trump or you support him 100%.  It's not an environment that encourages well intentioned back and forth debate.  I will readily admit my role in the tone of the board prior to the passing of Wildcat, which really made me reexamine how I conducted myself here as he would constantly tell me via PM's that I made good points that got lost in the vitriol in which they were often presented.  Sadly, not everyone here has come to that conclusion.

[GMDino]

(07-12-2019, 02:19 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Cabinet positions and who occupies them was a relatively pedestrian affair that many people did not pay much attention to in the past.  For that reason, I'm not sure how common it is for people who hold these cabinet positions to resign or be replaced within 1 Presidential term.

Obviously, with the amount of scandal in this administration, it has now become almost nightly news.

Is the amount of turnover in Trump's cabinet a relatively normal amount, historically? If not, is it anywhere close to normal? Or is it unprecedented?

As SSF says, Trump has a "chaotic and mercurial" style that most of see as poor leadership and being very bad at his job.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/mar/15/trump-white-house-turnover/

Quote:"The new Fake News narrative is that there is CHAOS in the White House," Trump tweeted. "Wrong! People will always come & go, and I want strong dialogue before making a final decision. I still have some people that I want to change (always seeking perfection). There is no Chaos, only great Energy!"


Whether chaos or great energy, the turnover in Trump’s White House is certainly unprecedented.

By his 365th day as president, 34 percent of Trump’s most senior staffers had quit, switched roles or were forced out, according to a study by the Brookings Institution’s Katie Dunn Tenpas that tracked staffers with the help of a list compiled by National Journal. That statistic has now climbed to 43 percent.

That’s more than double every other administration since 1981, when National Journal began the list.
Dunn Tenpas found that Barack Obama had lost 9 percent of his most senior staffers by the end of his first year and George W. Bush 6 percent. Ronald Reagan set the previous record at 17 percent.

Turnover in each position only counts once, which means that positions like the White House communications director, which has been filled by four people so far only counts once. (Sean Spicer filled the role on two separate occasions.)

We previously looked at the shortest tenures for the most high-profile Trump staffers. We’re now revisiting those numbers and comparing the number of people who filled each position in the three most recent administrations.

The speed of Trump’s hires and fires was surprising but not unprecedented, whereas the number of role changes shatters records.

34% in the first year.  Doubling the record.

43% in the article and that was over a year ago.

He's not very good.

[*Nately120*]

(07-12-2019, 02:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Well, you've come to the wrong place then.  There aren't many conservatives who post in here on a frequent basis (and no, I'm not one of them) as a certain segment of this board tend to mock and ridicule them and hurl weighty accusations of racism or fascism their way. 

Seeing how much conservatives loathe the concept of safespaces, I just figured we were doing them a favor.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-12-2019, 05:49 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Seeing how much conservatives loathe the concept of safespaces, I just figured we were doing them a favor.

A safe space is imposed.  Anyone is free to avoid an area they don't like (i.e. change the channel).  Not the same thing.

You get an "F" in smartass for the day.

[GMDino]

Alan Dershowitz denies he had sex with a minor.  Also Alan Dershowitz says it should be legal to have sex with a minor if she can legally get an abortion. 

Alan Dershowitz stands by his right to be a pedophile. https://t.co/XQKLKjxz6p

— Anonymous White House Official (@littledeekay) July 30, 2019

 

[GMDino]

But he was on "suicide watch".  

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/10/jeffrey-epstein-the-wealthy-financier-accused-of-child-sex-trafficking-commits-suicide-nbc-citing-sources.html

Quote:Jeffrey Epstein commits suicide month after arrest in child sex trafficking case

KEY POINTS

• Jeffrey Epstein, the wealthy financier accused of child sex trafficking, has committed suicide, three officials familiar with the matter told NBC News.
• Epstein hanged himself in Manhattan’s Metropolitan Correctional Center, the sources said. He was found at 7:30 a.m. Saturday.
• He was transported to by the FDNY-EMS from the jail to New York Downtown Hospital. When they arrived, Epstein was in cardiac arrest, people familiar with the matter say.
• Epstein, a one-time friend of Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, was accused of sexually exploiting dozens of underage girls, some of whom were as young as 14.
  

Jeffrey Epstein, the wealthy financier criminally charged last month with child sex trafficking, has committed suicide, three officials familiar with the matter told NBC News on Saturday morning.

Epstein, 66, hanged himself in Manhattan’s Metropolitan Correctional Center, the sources said. He was found at 7:30 a.m. Saturday. 

He was transported to federal jail by the FDNY-EMS from the jail to New York Downtown Hospital. When they arrived, Epstein was in cardiac arrest, people familiar with the matter say.



Epstein was being held without bail in the jail since his arrest in early July at an airport in northern New Jersey after arriving there on his private plane on a flight from Paris. He was previously put on suicide watch after he was found semi-conscious on July 23 with marks on his neck on the floor of his jail cell.

Epstein, a one-time friend of Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, was accused of sexually exploiting dozens of underage girls, some of whom were as young as 14. 

He was arrested in early July on charges of child sex trafficking and conspiracy to commit child sex trafficking after returning from France to Manhattan on a private plane. He had pleaded not guilty to those charges and was ordered held without bail.

A federal appeals court on Friday unsealed nearly 2,000 pages of documents, including one that contains include one flights records showing that President Donald Trump flew on Epstein’s private plane in 1997.


Another document showed that an accuser said Epstein’s alleged procurer of underage girls, Ghislaine Maxwell, directed the accuser to have sex with former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell, a Maine Democrat, former New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and other prominent people.


Those files released Friday are part of a defamation lawsuit that Giuffre filed against Maxwell several years ago. 

Prosecutors also allege that Epstein worked and conspired with employees, associates and others “who facilitated his conduct by, among other things, contacting victims and scheduling their sexual encounters with Epstein.”


He faced a maximum sentence of 45 years in prison if convicted. 

Unseal EVERYTHING.  Every name.

Other sources:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-suicide.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/jeffrey-epstein-accused-sex-trafficker-dies-suicide-officials/story?id=64881684
https://www.foxnews.com/us/jeffrey-epstein-dead-by-suicide-found-in-manhattan-jail-cell

https://www.google.com/search?q=epstein+suicide&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwismr_QufjjAhVop1kKHfUZBDMQ_AUIESgB&biw=1600&bih=757

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(08-10-2019, 10:52 AM)GMDino Wrote: But he was on "suicide watch".  

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/10/jeffrey-epstein-the-wealthy-financier-accused-of-child-sex-trafficking-commits-suicide-nbc-citing-sources.html



Unseal EVERYTHING.  Every name.

Other sources:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-suicide.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/jeffrey-epstein-accused-sex-trafficker-dies-suicide-officials/story?id=64881684
https://www.foxnews.com/us/jeffrey-epstein-dead-by-suicide-found-in-manhattan-jail-cell

https://www.google.com/search?q=epstein+suicide&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwismr_QufjjAhVop1kKHfUZBDMQ_AUIESgB&biw=1600&bih=757

The Clinton's did it!
He didn't commit suicide...he was suicided!
Chelsea was seen walking into the prison with a length of rope "Godfather II" style "Suicide".

[GMDino]

(08-12-2019, 11:52 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: The Clinton's did it!
He didn't commit suicide...he was suicided!
Chelsea was seen walking into the prison with a length of rope "Godfather II" style "Suicide".

I knew you were Donald Trump!  

[jj22]

Americans (even Trump) are all in on the Clinton conspiracy's while ignoring he was buddy's with Trump, tons of pics with Trump, and there is even video of them discussing girls together like the close friends they were.

But don't expect Americans to treat the two equally, not when there's a Dem (especially a Clinton) to focus the attention too. Even the media is guilty for covering these conspiracy theories and acting like Trump didn't even know the guy as much as Bill did.

[GMDino]

(08-12-2019, 12:20 PM)jj22 Wrote: Americans (even Trump) are all in on the Clinton conspiracy's while ignoring he was buddy's with Trump, tons of pics with Trump, and there is even video of them discussing girls together like the close friends they were.

But don't expect Americans to treat the two equally, not when there's a Dem (especially a Clinton) to focus the attention too. Even the media is guilty for covering these conspiracy theories and acting like Trump didn't even know the guy as much as Bill did.

He was "buddies" with whoever he could bilk money from.  I'd wager Clinton was in more with him than Trump, but more because no one wants to be around Trump that much. 

That said, that DJT is actively promoting the conspiracy that the Clinton's had him knocked off is awful.  For one it's not the kind of thing a President should be doing/saying and for two this happened on Trump's DOJ watch. If the Clinton's are THAT powerful Hillary would be President right now.

I'm sure there are those who will insist that DJT "didn't say" that the Clinton's had Epstein killed...Trump just retweeted a conspiracy theory. That doesn't mean HE believe it!!11!!1!!

But Trump is either dumb enough to believe that the Clinton's got to Epstein while he was in charge or just enjoys being a troll. Either way he's not fit to sit in the oval office, IMHO.

[CJD]

There are 4 possibilities with the Epstein Suicide, by my count:
1. Clintons/high up Democrats murdered him.
2. Trump/high up Republcans murdered him.
3. He faked his own suicide and fled the country.
4. He actually killed himself.

All 4 require some shady shit to occur. I've seen tweets saying cameras were turned off when they're normally on, guards were not watching him when they normally are, he was on suicide watch but maybe he actually wasn't. All kinds of stuff. Not sure what is and is not verifiable.

The bottom line for me is, that if something shady occurred, I hope they catch whoever did it and this isn't marred by politics. If a Clinton did something, I hope they're caught and prosecuted. If a Trump did something, I hope likewise (and this obviously is the same for any other politiican from either side of the aisle.) And if he faked his suicide to escape, I hope he and everyone who helped him are also caught and prosecuted.

My "don't be a conspiracy theorist" sense is telling me he just committed suicide because he knew worse would happen to him in prison (since he was apparently already attacked earlier in July) and maybe he paid off the guards to look the other way but eh...maybe we'll find out for sure someday.

[Au165]

He killed himself and no one was really interested in stopping him is the answer based on Occam's Razor.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-12-2019, 02:34 PM)Au165 Wrote: He killed himself and no one was really interested in stopping him is the answer based on Occam's Razor.

No, not in this case.  If you are on suicide watch in a federal lockup it is virtually impossible to kill yourself without outside help.  You have no means of doing so aside from biting into your own wrists.  So many things had to "go wrong" for this to have happened; the guard on one on one duty had to disappear, the video surveillance had to go out at the perfect moment and he had to be provided with the means to kill himself.  I am not remotely a conspiracy theorist but there is no doubt in my mind that Epstein was helped along in this.  Either he was given the Godfather choice or he was killed.  What this also means is that some incredibly high up, powerful, people were heavily implicated in Epstein's activities as they didn't even care how obvious they were making his death/murder.  Shady as hell.

[GMDino]

(08-12-2019, 03:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, not in this case.  If you are on suicide watch in a federal lockup it is virtually impossible to kill yourself without outside help.  You have no means of doing so aside from biting into your own wrists.  So many things had to "go wrong" for this to have happened; the guard on one on one duty had to disappear, the video surveillance had to go out at the perfect moment and he had to be provided with the means to kill himself.  I am not remotely a conspiracy theorist but there is no doubt in my mind that Epstein was helped along in this.  Either he was given the Godfather choice or he was killed.  What this also means is that some incredibly high up, powerful, people were heavily implicated in Epstein's activities as they didn't even care how obvious they were making his death/murder.  Shady as hell.

That's what I proposed over the weekend.  He was told they would look the other way while "he did the right thing".

Definitely shady.

[Au165]

(08-12-2019, 03:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, not in this case.  If you are on suicide watch in a federal lockup it is virtually impossible to kill yourself without outside help.  You have no means of doing so aside from biting into your own wrists.  So many things had to "go wrong" for this to have happened; the guard on one on one duty had to disappear, the video surveillance had to go out at the perfect moment and he had to be provided with the means to kill himself.  I am not remotely a conspiracy theorist but there is no doubt in my mind that Epstein was helped along in this.  Either he was given the Godfather choice or he was killed.  What this also means is that some incredibly high up, powerful, people were heavily implicated in Epstein's activities as they didn't even care how obvious they were making his death/murder.  Shady as hell.

...No, not really. People kill themselves while on suicide watch all the time. They don't have video surveillance in all cells like you see in movies, mainly because it's too costly. The cameras in the hallways though would show who was there before and after. The reality was he was on 30 minute rounds, even though they weren't followed that night, but that in itself tells you they didn't consider him high risk as most places use 15 minute staggered rounds for high risk inmates. Side note, he was taken off suicide watch before he did it so there were plenty of things he could have used to hang himself.

People always look to circumstances and believe they signal foul play, but in many instances circumstances create opportunities for suicidal people to off themselves. It is kind of funny though, if everyone in the world thinks a guy committing suicide is obviously foul play and that he was killed don't you think someone with the means to do such a thing would have known that too? Wouldn't it have made more sense to have an inmate in prison kill him? If you had "dirty guards" it would have been easier to have him stabbed by an inmate during transport to another part of the prison, and then you could easily have the inmate claim he wanted the fame of killing a child predator (which is a real thing in prison). 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-12-2019, 04:00 PM)Au165 Wrote: ...No, not really. People kill themselves while on suicide watch all the time. They don't have video surveillance in all cells like you see in movies, mainly because it's too costly. The cameras in the hallways though would show who was there before and after. The reality was he was on 30 minute rounds, even though they weren't followed that night, but that in itself tells you they didn't consider him high risk as most places use 15 minute staggered rounds for high risk inmates. Side note, he was taken off suicide watch before he did it so there were plenty of things he could have used to hang himself.

All of this is, at least partially, true.  But not in a "as high profile a case as it's possible to have" scenario like this.  I worked in a detention facility.  I sat on "one on one" cases.  You never, ever, let them out of your sight.  The 15 minute hall check is not sufficient for such cases and the fact that the didn't even have him on that, as you claim, would be further evidence of utter incompetence that just wouldn't happen with a case this huge.

Quote:People always look to circumstances and believe they signal foul play, but in many instances circumstances create opportunities for suicidal people to off themselves. It is kind of funny though, if everyone in the world thinks a guy committing suicide is obviously foul play and that he was killed don't you think someone with the means to do such a thin would have known that too? Wouldn't it have made more sense to have an inmate in prison kill him? If you had "dirty guards" it would have been easier to have him stabbed by an inmate during transport to another part of the prison, and then you could easily have the inmate claim he wanted the fame of killing a child predator (which is a real thing in prison). 

You're utterly ignoring some huge facts.  The surveillance system just happened to go out at that time?  If Epstein was PC'd up, which would be another example of monstrous incompetence if he wasn't, then he's not getting killed by another inmate.  Yes, killing pedophiles is a thing in prison, they are the lowest of the low in the prison culture, that doesn't explain this away.  If you want to convince yourself this was just a plain old suicide then feel free, but the facts don't support it, at all.

[Au165]

(08-12-2019, 04:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: All of this is, at least partially, true.  But not in a "as high profile a case as it's possible to have" scenario like this.  I worked in a detention facility.  I sat on "one on one" cases.  You never, ever, let them out of your sight.  The 15 minute hall check is not sufficient for such cases and the fact that the didn't even have him on that, as you claim, would be further evidence of utter incompetence that just wouldn't happen with a case this huge.


You're utterly ignoring some huge facts.  The surveillance system just happened to go out at that time?  If Epstein was PC'd up, which would be another example of monstrous incompetence if he wasn't, then he's not getting killed by another inmate.  Yes, killing pedophiles is a thing in prison, they are the lowest of the low in the prison culture, that doesn't explain this away.  If you want to convince yourself this was just a plain old suicide then feel free, but the facts don't support it, at all.

This facility wasn't a "one on one" facility, I've never heard of that other than high risk psych ward patients anyways, and even had they been he wasn't on suicide watch anymore so it's moot. As for 30 minutes being "not sufficient" that apparently is debatable as the facility is a 30 minute check facility and they were that way long before Epstein was there.

There weren't any cameras in his cell, I haven't seen it printed anywhere that the hallway cameras "went out" just at that moment. Do you have some legitimate source about cameras in the hallway going out just at that moment?

Update: Just saw the "camera outage" was an unsubstantiated twitter rumor, so that is more conspiracy theory propaganda.