Jersusalem "off the table"

[StLucieBengal]

(01-30-2018, 07:26 PM)Dill Wrote: Just two quick points, Lucy.

1. This is a hot button issue for both of us, obviously.  But through it all, you have kept your cool and focused on the issues. Thanks for doing that.  Your last post is your most substantive, I think.

2. I think we disagree on the history of negotiations. Palestinians have come to the table again and again, and as they are doing so, the Israelis keep taking their land and bulldozing their homes.  If Israel wants to create a Greater Israel by absorbing the West Bank, then it is proceeding on schedule. The strategy is to keep building settlements while throwing impossible demands at the Palestinians. Then when they throw up their hands in frustration, the Israeli and US press speaks of Palestinian intransigence.  Without US pressure on Israel, there simply is no motivation for Israel to cut any deal or stop settlements.  The current state of Israel was wrenched from Palestinians by force, and now the West Bank is being assimilated piecemeal. 

So the Palestinians do not have only themselves to blame if a more powerful military, with US assistance, takes away their land. In the words of MLK: Time to blame the robber, not the victim.

Yeah I get your concerns. I just don’t have any interest in supporting a group who chooses criminals and terrorists as their leaders. No matter what happens that area and those people are better when those leaders are out of power. Until then it’s irrelevant in my opinion. I just do not care about the Palestinians as they are set up now.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-30-2018, 09:08 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: If the weapons we have today existed in the 18th and 19th centuries, this would be the US and with Native Americans being Palestinians.

Welp. North America is certainly better off with us winning that tussle. So that just reinforces the one Israel led state position.

The Indians assimilated just fine and I’m sure the Palestinians can as well. Or they can hoa.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(01-31-2018, 12:05 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Welp. North America is certainly better off with us winning that tussle. So that just reinforces the one Israel led state position.

The Indians assimilated just fine and I’m sure the Palestinians can as well. Or they can hoa.

This is one of the more out of touch with reality statements I’ve ever read on these boards.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 12:11 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: This is one of the more out of touch with reality statements I’ve ever read on these boards.

North America is the home of the most successful nations who lead the world in almost all aspects.

The British and Dutch colonists took a backwoods patch of land and made it into a world power and home of freedom.

How is that out of touch?

[Vas Deferens]

(01-31-2018, 12:11 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: This is one of the more out of touch with reality statements I’ve ever read on these boards.

ignorance is bliss

[BmorePat87]

(01-31-2018, 12:05 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Welp.  North America is certainly better off with us winning that tussle.   So that just reinforces the one Israel led state position.

The Indians assimilated just fine and I’m sure the Palestinians can as well.   Or they can hoa.

Genocide is a-okay if the country that does it is one you support.

[GMDino]

(01-31-2018, 12:27 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: ignorance is bliss

I'm sure. 

(06-13-2016, 10:52 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Actually it's probably a good thing the Indians died out for the most part.    Without them there was no need for tribal bickering.  
I have said it before and will still say that I am glad we were a British colony.  

(01-29-2016, 01:55 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  
Lol yeah cause we know your reasonable on this subject since you called it a genocide.   If you wish to have a pity party for the Indians then so be it ....   You can be ashamed of the colonists and our nation but I am not and even though there may have been some questionable decisions along the way in no way was it ever a genocide:    Once again you are failing with your attempt at spicy language.

(10-25-2015, 04:06 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  
When someone "invades" your home do you kick them out or let them move into the guest room and eat your food?    
 
You can not help stupid.   They lost what they "had" if they ever had anything.   Plus they have made out handsomely.... Plenty of reparations.   $1500 a month tax free for life plus your own lands to govern as you wish.  
 
By 18 Indians have $324,000 not counting the compounded interest of 18 years.  Around 640-660k.    Wonder how many 18 year olds who would have their life changed by that cash infusion.   Instead of debts.  
 
But yes please go on about how rough the Indians have it lol

 

(11-11-2015, 09:11 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Haha right on schedule.  
 
No I'm not full of it but it is hilarious you are posting over and over based on your belief that I am wrong.   Lots of Indians have money and it's seeded by the government.  
 
One day you will get a post on it.   Keep check back.  Haha

(10-25-2015, 08:29 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I don't agree with giving up land once it's conquered.   To the victor goes the spoils.   The exact same reason I give when anyone brings up the Indians.

(07-28-2015, 10:46 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  
Were their indians who participated in  canibolism..... Yes several tribes .... End of story.    
 
For your comparison to work you would need several cities in Florida for eat faces in mass numbers.      
 
Nice try.

(06-28-2015, 03:26 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  
They lost.   They either sold their lands or just died off.    They got reparations for the broken treaties... so the slate is wiped clean.  
 
And before you start with the disease nonsense.   Asians brought disease to europe and europe lost a lot of lives too.  So if you have sympathy for the Indians then where is your sympathy for the white man?  
 
Was just part of the world then....  And the sIberians were here before the Indians anyway.   So they have more of a claim than the Indians.

(06-28-2015, 05:43 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: And btw when I said  where is the sympathy for the white man..... Was referring to the White men who died when the Asian diseases swept through europe .  Basically the same thing that happened to the Indians when we came here....    No immunity had been built up.      So it was common as people moved continent to continent.

So if we stop backing Israel and they get run over and invaded its on them.  

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 10:05 AM)GMDino Wrote: I'm sure. 

 

So if we stop backing Israel and they get run over and invaded its on them.  

Ah the old go back to 2015 posts. Obviously my position on the Indians hasn’t changed. Thanks for that trip down memory lane.

[GMDino]

(01-31-2018, 11:09 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Ah the old go back to 2015 posts.   Obviously my position on the Indians hasn’t changed.   Thanks for that trip down memory lane.

Oh that's clear in the Cleveland Indians thread.

Clearly your "position" is the same with Israel.  Stop backing them and if they can't defend themselves we're better off.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(01-31-2018, 10:05 AM)GMDino Wrote: I'm sure. 

 

So if we stop backing Israel and they get run over and invaded its on them.  

Wow...those quotes are crazy. Thankfully, this thinking comes from a very small minority of simple individuals.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 11:12 AM)GMDino Wrote: Oh that's clear in the Cleveland Indians thread.

Clearly your "position" is the same with Israel.  Stop backing them and if they can't defend themselves we're better off.

Israel is actually making that region better. The Palestinians are just creating shanty towns and living like animals with a blood thirst.

The British and Dutch colonists actually made this continent better. Had the Indians been left to their own devices North America would not be the international power center it is today.

You can feel all the sympathy you like for Palestinians and Indians but the fact is the world is a better place because British and Dutch colonists pushes forward and the West Bank region will Be Better off if Israel pushed forward.

[Dill]

(01-31-2018, 12:05 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Welp.  North America is certainly better off with us winning that tussle.   So that just reinforces the one Israel led state position.

The Indians assimilated just fine and I’m sure the Palestinians can as well.   Or they can hoa.

I think some of the Indians died during that assimilation period, didn't they, trying to defend their land or something? Some were enslaved too, which is maybe a good way to learn the White Man's way. You would have to learn English and maybe become Christian. Indians, with their terrorist leaders, saw it otherwise, though.  

I lived for a number of years on the Crow Reservation in Montana, by the way, where things are still going great! People still argue whether it was wrong to take Indian land by force or whether they deserved to lose it because they weren't really using the land to farm.

The problem in both cases--Palestinian and Native American--is that there are all these liberals around making a big human rights ruckus every time a nation with a more powerful military robs another nation.  They did it when the Nazis invaded other countries and took their stuff.  Now they are doing it when the Israelis rob Palestinians. 

If people would just agree to drop the whole notion that all people are naturally equal and deserving of the same rights to property then we would get this Palestinian thing settled once and for all. Maybe some other things too.  E.g., Why did God put our oil under their land? We could set that to rights in a heartbeat.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 03:46 PM)Dill Wrote: I think some of the Indians died during that assimilation period, didn't they, trying to defend their land or something? Some were enslaved too, which is maybe a good way to learn the White Man's way. You would have to learn English and maybe become Christian. Indians, with their terrorist leaders, saw it otherwise, though.  

I lived for a number of years on the Crow Reservation in Montana, by the way, where things are still going great! People still argue whether it was wrong to take Indian land by force or whether they deserved to lose it because they weren't really using the land to farm.

The problem in both cases--Palestinian and Native American--is that there are all these liberals around making a big human rights ruckus every time a nation with a more powerful military robs another nation.  They did it when the Nazis invaded other countries and took their stuff.  Now they are doing it when the Israelis rob Palestinians. 

If people would just agree to drop the whole notion that all people are naturally equal and deserving of the same rights to property then we would get this Palestinian thing settled once and for all. Maybe some other things too.  E.g., Why did God put our oil under their land? We could set that to rights in a heartbeat.

Trying to compare the British and Dutch colonists and Israelies to the Nazi’s is beyond jumping the shark.

The Palestinians aren’t being robbed by anyone other than their elected leaders. And the colonists just took land and actually built something great with it, yes they did violate some agreements, but we are all here today with Indians in the greatest country in the world. Indians even have their own land where they can take all the Americans money tax free from their casinos. I’m sure a lot of Americans would appreciate the opportunity that Indians have to put up these casinos. Not to mention getting preferred treatment on applications, etc.

Palestinian situation could be settled quickly. Join an Israel one state. Just as the Indians Settled in with us. Who knows maybe the Palestinians will get some tax free casinos.

Btw none of what I have suggested above is a violation of anyone’s human rights.

[GMDino]

(01-31-2018, 04:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Trying to compare the British and Dutch colonists and Israelies to the Nazi’s is beyond jumping the shark.  

The Palestinians aren’t being robbed by anyone other than their elected leaders.    And the colonists just took land and actually built something great with it, yes they did violate some agreements,

Sure. What's a little land theft and broken treaties among friends...right?

(01-31-2018, 04:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: ...but we are all here today with Indians in the greatest country in the world.

We're in Mother Russia?

(01-31-2018, 04:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Indians even have their own land where they can take all the Americans money tax free from their casinos.   I’m sure a lot of Americans would appreciate the opportunity that Indians have to put up these casinos.   Not to mention getting preferred treatment on applications, etc.  

Lucky *******s! They lost their country and freedom but they can run casinos! Whoo-hoo!

(01-31-2018, 04:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Palestinian situation could be settled quickly.   Join an Israel one state.   Just as the Indians Settled in with us.   Who knows maybe the Palestinians will get some tax free casinos.  

Btw none of what I have suggested above is a violation of anyone’s human rights.

The total lack of compassion combined with a twisted sense of right and wrong (and history) astounds me frankly.

[Dill]

(01-31-2018, 04:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Trying to compare the British and Dutch colonists and Israelies to the Nazi’s is beyond jumping the shark.  

The Palestinians aren’t being robbed by anyone other than their elected leaders.    And the colonists just took land and actually built something great with it, yes they did violate some agreements, but we are all here today with Indians in the greatest country in the world.    Indians even have their own land where they can take all the Americans money tax free from their casinos.   I’m sure a lot of Americans would appreciate the opportunity that Indians have to put up these casinos.   Not to mention getting preferred treatment on applications, etc.  

Palestinian situation could be settled quickly.   Join an Israel one state.   Just as the Indians Settled in with us.   Who knows maybe the Palestinians will get some tax free casinos.  

Btw none of what I have suggested above is a violation of anyone’s human rights.

Lucy, sounds like you are saying it is ok to steal land from others if you do something you think "better" with it. Did I hear you right?

I am guessing you don't know a lot about reservation politics, based upon your casino comments. But somehow you have "heard" a lot about all the freebies first peoples get? People pay them for just sitting around?

The Palestinians elected leaders did not drive them out of Palestine and take their land. Jewish immigrants from Europe did that in 1947, 56, and 67.

Israel is an ethnic, settler state. They do not want Palestinians to join their citizenry and gain voting rights. Any Jew from anywhere in the world has a "right of return," but not Palestinians. 

Taking people's land by force is a violation of human rights.  You would certainly think so if the Israelis took your property and made "something better" out of it. 

BTW When you support taking people's land by force because the takers can make more money that way--as you do with native Americans and Palestinians--then you indeed support the violation of their human rights. You are saying might makes right, and you defend the "right" of the powerful to take what they can from the innocent.  

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 04:28 PM)GMDino Wrote: Sure. What's a little land theft and broken treaties among friends...right?


We're in Mother Russia?



Lucky *******s! They lost their country and freedom but they can run casinos! Whoo-hoo!


The total lack of compassion combined with a twisted sense of right and wrong (and history) astounds me frankly.

1. It happened can’t change it now. And really he works would be quite different had it not went the way it did. Probably speaking German or Russian at this point and waiting in line for a bag of potatos.

2. Actually the Russians were here before the Indians. Siberian’s were here and slaughtered and ran out but Indians.

3. The ability to basically print money makes them quite formidable.

4. Why is there a need to show compassion here? I obviously do not want people slaughtered.

Just because I don’t feel the need to post how much compassion I have for (insert group here) doesn’t mean that I want them dead. I do not feel the need to spend three posts first saying how badly I feel for (insert group of people) when these threads come up. I don’t know anyone here who favors mass killings. And I don’t know anyone here who doesn’t feel sorry or bad for those groups who have Been slighted. The fact is that it doesn’t do them or anyone any good by trying to go back play armchair qb. I am more interested in the topic going forward I am not interested in virtue signaling to everyone else on the board that I am checking the box of being sufficiently pro whatever Group who is claiming to be slighted at the time.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 04:37 PM)Dill Wrote: Lucy, sounds like you are saying it is ok to steal land from others if you do something you think "better" with it. Did I hear you right?

I am guessing you don't know a lot about reservation politics, based upon your casino comments. But somehow you have "heard" a lot about all the freebies first peoples get? People pay them for just sitting around?

The Palestinians elected leaders did not drive them out of Palestine and take their land. Jewish immigrants from Europe did that in 1947, 56, and 67.

Israel is an ethnic, settler state. They do not want Palestinians to join their citizenry and gain voting rights. Any Jew from anywhere in the world has a "right of return," but not Palestinians. 

Taking people's land by force is a violation of human rights.  You would certainly think so if the Israelis took your property and made "something better" out of it. 

BTW When you support taking people's land by force because the takers can make more money that way--as you do with native Americans and Palestinians--then you indeed support the violation of their human rights. You are saying might makes right, and you defend the "right" of the powerful to take what they can from the innocent.  

I am well aware of reservations. We have several around here and I have done business with them often over the yearsZ. So yes my perception on reservations are certainly limited to my experiences here in south Florida.

The powerful taking from the “innocent” has been happening the entire history of the world. If you can’t defend what you have you will lose it.

And I have made my position clear on the Palestinians. Until they choose different leaders I really do not care what happens to them. They reap what they sow and when you lay with dogs you get fleas. If they choose more reasonable leadership then I will take a fresh look at the situation. Outside of that I am pretty set.

Arabs live in Israel already. They are overwhelmingly Palestinian. So I know they can live and thrive within an Israel state.

[Dill]

(01-31-2018, 04:55 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I am well aware of reservations.   We have several around here and I have done business with them often over the yearsZ.  So yes my perception on reservations are certainly limited to my experiences here in south Florida.    

The powerful taking from the “innocent” has been happening the entire history of the world.    If you can’t defend what you have you will lose it.  

And I have made my position clear on the Palestinians.   Until they choose different leaders I really do not care what happens to them.   They reap what they sow and when you lay with dogs you get fleas.  If they choose more reasonable leadership then I will take a fresh look at the situation.   Outside of that I am pretty set.  

Arabs live in Israel already.   They are overwhelmingly Palestinian.   So I know they can live and thrive within an Israel state.

Israeli-Arabs don't "thrive" there. They are an ethnic minority in an ethnic state. And Israeli citizenship doesn't prevent their property from being appropriated too. Israeli laws are designed to favor Jewish over Arab citizens of Israel.

The purpose of law, state, national and international, is to prevent the powerful from taking from the innocent.  Now millions of innocent people DON'T lose their property because the law protects them.

If I steal your car and end in court, it will not be a suitable defense if I tell the judge that "taking from the innocent has been happening the entire history of the world and if Lucy can't defend what he has he will lose it."   The judge will decide that I have violated your rights, return your car, and put me in prison.  And that is the point of law--to stop what has been happening "the entire history of the world."

Your position on Palestinian leadership is still rather unclear to me. It is clear you don't like them. But it is not clear why you think they are terrorists or have behaved badly, as opposed to Israeli leadership.   Also, even if they did behave badly, that would give Israel no legal right to take the land of their people, any more than if you behave badly it gives me the right to take your car.

Israel behaving badly doesn't lower them in your estimation.  double standard.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 06:21 PM)Dill Wrote: Israeli-Arabs don't "thrive" there. They are an ethnic minority in an ethnic state. And Israeli citizenship doesn't prevent their property from being appropriated too. Israeli laws are designed to favor Jewish over Arab citizens of Israel.

The purpose of law, state, national and international, is to prevent the powerful from taking from the innocent.  Now millions of innocent people DON'T lose their property because the law protects them.

If I steal your car and end in court, it will not be a suitable defense if I tell the judge that "taking from the innocent has been happening the entire history of the world and if Lucy can't defend what he has he will lose it."   The judge will decide that I have violated your rights, return your car, and put me in prison.  And that is the point of law--to stop what has been happening "the entire history of the world."

Your position on Palestinian leadership is still rather unclear to me. It is clear you don't like them. But it is not clear why you think they are terrorists or have behaved badly, as opposed to Israeli leadership.   Also, even if they did behave badly, that would give Israel no legal right to take the land of their people, any more than if you behave badly it gives me the right to take your car.

Israel behaving badly doesn't lower them in your estimation.  double standard.

That’s pretty clear on Abbas http://freebeacon.com/politics/lifestyles-of-the-rich-and-palestinian/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-pa-minister-says-he-quit-over-rampant-corruption-in-ramallah/

https://www.haaretz.com/whdcMobileSite/israel-news/.premium-corrupt-pa-officials-too-comfortable-to-resist-occupation-1.5429545


https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-tough-times-most-palestinians-view-government-as-corrupt/

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2017/01/israel-west-bank-hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-journalism.html

Quote:No journalists in Gaza — no matter how senior — would even think of criticizing the leaders of Hamas, and in the Palestinian Authority (PA), criticism of any kind against President Mahmoud Abbas, or exposure of corruption in the PA, could result in the journalist’s arrest.

“We all known there’s terrible corruption in the PA,” a senior veteran journalist from Ramallah, the seat of the PA in the West Bank, told Al-Monitor on condition of anonymity. “We know hundreds of stories about senior PA officials and about Abbas’ sons, but we can’t publish them or even talk openly about them.”

According to various reports, the PA has for years been plagued by corruption. The governmental structure put in place by the late Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) leader Yasser Arafat did not include control and supervision mechanisms. Every Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza knows full well that those closest to the seat of power often enjoy a lifestyle incompatible with the salary of a PA official.

“We saw PLO activists who arrived [in the West Bank and Gaza] from Libya and Tunisia [in the 1990s] with only the clothes on their backs, and a few months after the PA was established they were already driving around in Mercedes cars, wearing Italian suits and building ostentatious villas,” the journalist claimed. “To this day they are all rich, taken care of and no one can say a word or even ask where such wealth came from.”



Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2017/01/israel-west-bank-hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-journalism.html#ixzz55nx09HDw

That’s just a few links when I searched palestinians corruption.

[GMDino]

This was a good listen today.

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/31/582099085/journalist-details-israels-secret-history-of-targeted-assassinations

Quote:Journalist Details Israel's 'Secret History' Of Targeted Assassinations

Ronen Bergman says that while Israel's shootings, poisonings, bombings and drone strikes against its perceived enemies were "tactical successes," they were also diplomatically harmful.




This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Our guest, Israeli investigative reporter Ronen Bergman, says that Israel has developed the most robust streamlined assassination machine in history. His new book, based on a thousand interviews, chronicles decades of shootings, poisonings, bombings and drone strikes. The targets were perceived enemies of the Jewish state, ranging from British colonial officials in the 1940s to leaders of Hamas, Hezbollah and the PLO to Iranian nuclear scientists. Bergman describes the planning and approval process for targeted killings, which typically involved young military and intelligence operatives making the case for a strike to the country's prime minister.

Bergman writes that Israeli assassination teams were effective at eliminating their targets but often at a moral and political price their leaders would only come to understand years after their missions. Ronen Bergman is a senior correspondent for military and intelligence affairs for Yedioth Ahronoth, the country's largest daily newspaper, and a contributing writer for The New York Times Magazine. He spoke to FRESH AIR's Dave Davies about his new book "Rise And Kill First: The Secret History Of Israel's Targeted Assassinations."

DAVE DAVIES, BYLINE: Well, Ronen Bergman, welcome to FRESH AIR. Why do you think it's important to write about this subject, about targeted killings?


RONEN BERGMAN: Because this tool has been used by Israel for a long time. The history of Israeli intelligence secretly but profoundly affected the history of the country and the history of the region and sometimes the history of the world. And targeted killings were the main tool that was used. That's the first. And the second because other countries nowadays are using this kind of way, especially the United States. And I think the United States has a lot to learn from the operational and intelligence vast experience of Israel but also from the moral price that Israel has paid and still paying for use of such an aggressive measure.


DAVIES: You describe an operation in October of 1982. Israeli military and intelligence forces were trying to assassinate Yasser Arafat by shooting an airplane out of the sky over the Mediterranean. Arafat then, of course, the head of the PLO, the Palestine Liberation Organization. Tell us what happened here.


BERGMAN: The hunt for the person who was codenamed The Head of the Fish, Yasser Arafat, was the most extensive and long term in the history of Israeli intelligence. It started back in 1964 and lasted for decades. Israel tried to kill him numerous times. Most of them happened just before, during and after the Israeli invasion to Lebanon in 1982. Now, there was one point when Prime Minister Menachem Begin promised President Ronald Reagan not to hurt Yasser Arafat. And that was the point when Arafat willingly was - accepted the sort of cease-fire and evacuated Beirut in August.


Just after that, the defense minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon - who was, I would say, obsessed to kill Arafat - ordered Israeli intelligence to trace him down and the air force to take out airplanes in which Arafat was. That day, in October, the Mossad identified Yasser Arafat going on a Buffalo cargo airplane from Athens to Cairo. They said the target - the Head of the Fish - has grown beard to conceal himself, but it is Yasser Arafat. The chief of staff, General - Brigadier General Eitan ordered the chief of the air force, Iviry, to take down the airplane. But he had his own doubts. He said, I don't get it. I don't understand why Arafat, who wasn't supposed to be in Athens, would go to Cairo, where he doesn't have anything to do at that time. And also, why would he go in this kind of airplane, which is not distinguished enough for a person of his prestige?

Then, under severe pressure from the Ministry of Defense and the chief of staff, the chief of the air force had to stall for time. The F-15 were already in air. They saw the Buffalo cargo plane with the alleged Yasser Arafat. But the chief of the air force demanded for more time and more corroboration and all checks by the Mossad, Israeli military intelligence. And only the very last minute, it turned out that Arafat was on board but it was not Yasser. It was his brother, the chief of the - Fathi Arafat, the physician, a children's doctor who was the head of the Palestinian Red Crescent and was mobilizing 30 wounded children from Athens to be treated in Cairo. So on the very last minute, his life and the lives of these children were saved.

Long read / listen but very interesting.


Glad they are "our" side with such a program.