Jesus Wept

[jj22]

I wouldn't say anything if they supported everyone. People are fine with it because they are using Trump as a vessel. But they didn't support Obama. Ignored and attacked him for 8 years. So it's not "I hope they don't turn their back on folks". It's Evangelicals turned their back on folks with far less moral issues then Trump already.

So when kids see them supporting and praying with and blessing a man on his 3rd wife who paid off porn stars and prostitutes while married...

And ignoring a family man like Obama who married his first love and never had infidelity issues (that we know just to be fair), never had kids out of wedlock and never paid off porn stars etc. What do you say to them?

That's the issue with the visuals of all this.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-29-2018, 03:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't have any idea what this has to do with my comment that you quoted, but

Mathew chapter 12


46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? 

First off, even in your out-of-context quote, he's not saying anything bad about his mother. 

More importantly, when you read the next 2 verses, you'll see the point Jesus' was making:
49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

[fredtoast]

(08-29-2018, 04:14 PM)PhilHos Wrote: First off, even in your out-of-context quote, he's not saying anything bad about his mother. 

Oh really?

Refuse to talk to your mother because she is not "doing the will of the lord" and see how that goes.



What I want to know is what the hell this has to do with evangelicals supporting Trump even when he claims he has done nothing wrong.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-29-2018, 03:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: I wouldn't say anything if they supported everyone. People are fine with it because they are using Trump as a vessel. But they didn't support Obama. Ignored and attacked him for 8 years. So it's not "I hope they don't turn their back on folks". It's Evangelicals turned their back on folks with far less moral issues then Trump already.

So when kids see them supporting and praying with and blessing a man on his 3rd wife who paid off porn stars and prostitutes while married...

And ignoring a family man like Obama who married his first love and never had infidelity issues (that we know just to be fair), never had kids out of wedlock and never paid off porn stars etc. What do you say to them?

That's the issue with the visuals of all this.

Some religious "leaders" support Trump that didn't support Obama. so what? There are some on the flip side (supported Obama, don't support Trump), but again, so what?

Yes, I get it. They're supposedly moral leaders and they're appearing to be huge hypocrites in their support of Trump who probably can't even spell 'morals' let alone have any. 

So. What.

Are you an evangelical? A Christian? A member of the group of Christianity that these "leaders" are supposed to be a leader of? If so, okay, I can get your complaint. I, too, dislike people purporting to be Christians, but whose actions tell a different story, especially those who are supposedly leaders. 

But, if you, as I suspect, are none of these things then why do you care? Why do you care if certain Christian 'leaders' are hypocrites? Why do you care if Christianity's reputation is tarnished because of these guys?

[*PhilHos*]

(08-29-2018, 04:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Oh really?

Refuse to talk to your mother because she is not "doing the will of the lord" and see how that goes.

That's not even remotely what he's saying. 

(08-29-2018, 04:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What I want to know is what the hell this has to do with evangelicals supporting Trump even when he claims he has done nothing wrong.

I haven't the faintest clue. I just took it as michaelsean making a funny. There's probably some backstory there between him and Nate that we're not privy to or whatever.

[fredtoast]

(08-29-2018, 04:22 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But, if you, as I suspect, are none of these things then why do you care? Why do you care if certain Christian 'leaders' are hypocrites? Why do you care if Christianity's reputation is tarnished because of these guys?

Because of the political clout Christian leaders carry.  Christians are taught to not ask questions and take actions based on "faith" instead of facts.  So many of them just mindlessly support/vote for what their leaders tell them.

[fredtoast]

(08-29-2018, 04:25 PM)PhilHos Wrote: That's not even remotely what he's saying. 

Then why did he refuse to talk to his own mother?

[jj22]

(08-29-2018, 04:22 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Some religious "leaders" support Trump that didn't support Obama. so what? There are some on the flip side (supported Obama, don't support Trump), but again, so what?

Yes, I get it. They're supposedly moral leaders and they're appearing to be huge hypocrites in their support of Trump who probably can't even spell 'morals' let alone have any. 

So. What.

Are you an evangelical? A Christian? A member of the group of Christianity that these "leaders" are supposed to be a leader of? If so, okay, I can get your complaint. I, too, dislike people purporting to be Christians, but whose actions tell a different story, especially those who are supposedly leaders. 

But, if you, as I suspect, are none of these things then why do you care? Why do you care if certain Christian 'leaders' are hypocrites? Why do you care if Christianity's reputation is tarnished because of these guys?

Because I am a Christian and these are weapons used to attack us and how can I blame people for questioning the legitimacy of our beliefs when the hypocrisy is there for everyone to judge.

It's politics that has ruined religion. It's our religious leaders that prompt up people like Trump and Kim (who had 3 husbands and cheated on all of them, had kids by men she was cheating with while married, and yet we praised her for standing for the sanctity of marriage). We keep doing this and we keep seeing people flee the religion.

Just because I don't support Trump doesn't mean I'm not a Christian. Not sure what I've ever done to give you the assumption outside of criticizing Trump and being Pro America and Pro Vets.

You tell society people like Trump and Kim are our moral compass and you expect to reach out to those who may have doubts? I don't think it works that way and thus we are failing.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-29-2018, 03:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't have any idea what this has to do with my comment that you quoted, but

Mathew chapter 12


46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? 

Because you said people who won’t admit they did wrong. She was sinless.Get it? Geeze why is everything a fight with you?

[*bfine32*]

(08-29-2018, 01:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What did your boy Jesus say about people who never admitted they did anything wrong or ask for forgiveness?

I suppose it depends on who you confess it to.

He most likely prefer us to confess to man; especially to the one we have sinned against. However, it's not an absolute. We are required to confess our sins at least once to him

[hollodero]

(08-29-2018, 04:22 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But, if you, as I suspect, are none of these things then why do you care? Why do you care if certain Christian 'leaders' are hypocrites? Why do you care if Christianity's reputation is tarnished because of these guys?

I for one generally dislike hypocrites. Left, right, christian, agnostics, whoever. Hypocrites, I feel, are deserving of critizism in any case.
I especially dislike hypocrites who take influence over other people and use said influence for hypocritical messages.

Trump told religious "leaders" that there will be violence if the GOP loses the midterm elections. Told them all things they worked for will end in that scenario. He told them that freely saying "merry Christmas" is a big reason to support him in fullest strength. Those are BS points, and passing them on is BS as well.

Now I don't know about "religious leaders" and who they lead, but I believe there are networks and contacts to preachers with an actual following of people in place. In said sense, I feel a propaganda campaign is going on, one that holds no valid points and takes advantage of a certain position of trust. (Like "God put me here to tell you saying "merry Christmas" will be frowned upon, yeah maybe forbidden soon if Trump's party loses an election" or things like that.)

And yeah, I also dislike propaganda campaigns that rally up people with BS points.

[Dill]

(08-29-2018, 07:36 PM)hollodero Wrote: Now I don't know about "religious leaders" and who they lead, but I believe there are networks and contacts to preachers with an actual following of people in place. In said sense, I feel a propaganda campaign is going on, one that holds no valid points and takes advantage of a certain position of trust. (Like "God put me here to tell you saying "merry Christmas" will be frowned upon, yeah maybe forbidden soon if Trump's party loses an election" or things like that.)

And yeah, I also dislike propaganda campaigns that rally up people with BS points.

No need to "feel" that. It is a fact. There is a network of evangelical/fundamentalist churches who are plugged into PACs and get regular talking points.
Most political organizations are set up like that, but you hit on the distinguishing factor in this case--a position of trust in authority, cultivated since childhood, is used to manipulate uninformed people, get them to police their own sources of information, trust in a larger cosmic "plan" which their leaders grasp.

But you are talking about roughly 30% of the total Christians in the U.S., if that.

[Dill]

(08-29-2018, 01:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: His family was granted political asylum in Egypt when he was in infant.

Good thing they were not turned away by heartless a holes at the border.

I think if he had been separted from his parents at the border, it would have sent a strong message to all immigrating Jews--stay in your own country.

[Dill]

(08-28-2018, 10:24 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: It's really weird that people expect others to expect their leaders to be moral paragons.

If everyone had this standard the world wouldn't have seen several of its greatest minds and leaders.

I don't think it is weird that people expect integrity in leaders.

The choice is not an either/or between "moral paragons" and Trump-like absence of character and principle.

Critiquing the latter is not an implicit claim leaders must be the former.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-29-2018, 09:17 PM)Dill Wrote: I think if he had been separted from his parents at the border, it would have sent a strong message to all immigrating Jews--stay in your own country.

So are we now claiming most people who cross illegally are asylum seekers?

[fredtoast]

(08-29-2018, 05:39 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Because you said people who won’t admit they did wrong. She was sinless.Get it?  Geeze why is everything a fight with you?

Mary was not sinless (according to Bible).

All humans were sinners and Mary was a human.

Why is everything "My beliefs define reality" with you?

[fredtoast]

(08-28-2018, 10:24 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: It's really weird that people expect others to expect their leaders to be moral paragons.

Most people don't, but when people create a political support group based soley on their religious moral beliefs then most people expect them to take into account the morals of their candidate.

Personally I don't mind if a leader has a weakness for sex, drugs, or gambling as long as it does not put him in a compromising position (like subject to blackmail), but it surprises me when some people don't think we should have to trust the people we chose to lead the country.

"Yeah, Trump has swindled people before, but that was just for money.  No way he'd sell out the American citizens for money from corporations or other countries."


"Sure, you can't believe a thing he says, but that is what makes him so great."

[*michaelsean*]

(08-29-2018, 10:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Mary was not sinless (according to Bible).

All humans were sinners and Mary was a human.

Why is everything "My beliefs define reality" with you?

Are you arguing a joke? You have some issues.

[GMDino]

[GMDino]

See is this what I (we?) mean when we say these "Christians" are just whores.

They "care" about religion as far as it gets them more power and money.  Best way to do that is to saddle up to one party and ride it them for all their worth.

So they have to make the INCREDIBLE mental gymnastics it takes to support Trump just so their sheep (their word, not mine) believe they are fighting for "God's work" to be done.

Also...sart tithing you slovenly jerks!