Kneeling during the national anthem and claims of disrespect

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2020, 01:50 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Oh, so you don't care.  Then why comment if you don't care?

Do you stand at attention during the National Anthem like you're supposed to do?

You're right. 

[masterpanthera_t]

I personally don't feel that I myself would kneel ( and haven't done so), because I am thankful for all that I've been blessed with as a citizen of our nation. But I don't wish to criticize protesters for their tactic.

A sincere question to those who oppose kneeling during the anthem started by Kaepeenick: Are you opposed to kneeling at anytime and under any scenario or is your opposition due to the idea that Kaepernick's kneeling is unjustified and his protest is not addressing any real injustices? Suppose, for example black WW2 veterans who returned home just after war or their communities protested against their segregation or the lack of respect accorded to the black veterans (or not really able to access the GI bill like their white counterparts, which I remember hearing, but don't know with certainty)at certain businesses decided to kneel in late 1940s during the anthem because the flag didn't evoke the same emotions for them as others, would you be opposed to that?

While we may or may not agree on the merits of Kaepernick's reasons, I just want to know if there are scenarios hypothetical or real, where you wouldn't be opposed to someone not "respecting" the flag because they honestly feel respect was not earned?

EDIT:
In a related note, are those opposed to the kneeling also opposed to the flying of the confederate banner considering the government it represented stands against what our nation stands for today? Do you feel it is unpatriotic to fly that banner?

EDIT: If not, why not?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2020, 02:09 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: I personally don't feel that I myself would kneel ( and haven't done so), because I am thankful for all that I've been blessed with as a citizen of our nation. But I don't wish to criticize protesters for their tactic.

A sincere question to those who oppose kneeling during the anthem started by Kaepeenick: Are you opposed to kneeling at anytime and under any scenario or is your opposition due to the idea that Kaepernick's kneeling is unjustified and his protest is not addressing any real injustices? Suppose, for example black WW2 veterans who returned home just after war or their communities protested against their segregation or the lack of respect accorded to the black veterans (or not really able to access the GI bill like their white counterparts, which I remember hearing, but don't know with certainty)at certain businesses decided to kneel in late 1940s during the anthem because the flag didn't evoke the same emotions for them as others, would you be opposed to that?

While we may or may not agree on the merits of Kaepernick's reasons, I just want to know if there are scenarios hypothetical or real, where you wouldn't be opposed to someone not "respecting" the flag because they honestly feel respect was not earned?

EDIT:
In a related note, are those opposed to the kneeling also opposed to the flying of the confederate banner considering the government it represented stands against what our nation stands for today? Do you feel it is unpatriotic to fly that banner?

EDIT: If not, why not?

I don't think we've ever actually established this, but I don't think anyone here has said they don't think people should be allowed to kneel.  I personally find it disrespectful, but I also don't get worked up about it.  As Bel has pointed out, people do other disrespectful things during the anthem and people don't blow a gasket over it.

[masterpanthera_t]

(07-26-2020, 02:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't think we've ever actually established this, but I don't think anyone here has said they don't think people should be allowed to kneel.  I personally find it disrespectful, but I also don't get worked up about it.  As Bel has pointed out, people do other disrespectful things during the anthem and people don't blow a gasket over it.

Just to be clear, I was asking why people are opposed in the sense why are they offended. Not if they're opposed to the right. You probably didn't mean that I actually implied this, but I want to clarify anyway, just in case.

EDIT:
I'm also asking in some ways because I want to know how critically all actions (at least somewhat related to the topic of the flag, at least imo), are being considered by those who are opposed to them or in favor of them. In some ways I think politicization of an issue itself leads to people choosing sides that they may personally not care as much about.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2020, 02:42 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: Just to be clear, I was asking why people are opposed in the sense why are they offended. Not if they're opposed to the right. You probably didn't mean that I actually implied this, but I want to clarify anyway, just in case.

I got that and I certainly wasn't trying to imply otherwise.

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2020, 02:09 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: I personally don't feel that I myself would kneel ( and haven't done so), because I am thankful for all that I've been blessed with as a citizen of our nation. But I don't wish to criticize protesters for their tactic.

A sincere question to those who oppose kneeling during the anthem started by Kaepeenick: Are you opposed to kneeling at anytime and under any scenario or is your opposition due to the idea that Kaepernick's kneeling is unjustified and his protest is not addressing any real injustices? Suppose, for example black WW2 veterans who returned home just after war or their communities protested against their segregation or the lack of respect accorded to the black veterans (or not really able to access the GI bill like their white counterparts, which I remember hearing, but don't know with certainty)at certain businesses decided to kneel in late 1940s during the anthem because the flag didn't evoke the same emotions for them as others, would you be opposed to that?

While we may or may not agree on the merits of Kaepernick's reasons, I just want to know if there are scenarios hypothetical or real, where you wouldn't be opposed to someone not "respecting" the flag because they honestly feel respect was not earned?

EDIT:
In a related note, are those opposed to the kneeling also opposed to the flying of the confederate banner considering the government it represented stands against what our nation stands for today? Do you feel it is unpatriotic to fly that banner?

EDIT: If not, why not?

I think it depends on how we try to describe our position. Often when people want to challenge the view that not rendering honors is disrespectful. They'll us words like insist, outrage, squealing. crying, opposed......

My point is simple: Ask me what I think about kneeling during the Anthem and I'll say it's disrespectful to the flag and ALL for which it stands, just not the part you want it to offend. 

Don't ask I will not demand, oppose, squeal, outrage, cry. You do you; I'll do me. 

As to the Confederate flag...my view is the same.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-26-2020, 02:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think it depends on how we try to describe our position. Often when people want to challenge the view that not rendering honors is disrespectful. They'll us words like insist, outrage, squealing. crying, opposed......

My point is simple: Ask me what I think about kneeling during the Anthem and I'll say it's disrespectful to the flag and ALL for which it stands, just not the part you want it to offend. 

Don't ask I will not demand, oppose, squeal, outrage, cry. You do you; I'll do me. 

As to the Confederate flag...my view is the same.

But, you yourself don't render honors to the flag. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2020, 02:50 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: But, you yourself don't render honors to the flag. 

You're right

[masterpanthera_t]

(07-26-2020, 02:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think it depends on how we try to describe our position. Often when people want to challenge the view that not rendering honors is disrespectful. They'll us words like insist, outrage, squealing. crying, opposed......

My point is simple: Ask me what I think about kneeling during the Anthem and I'll say it's disrespectful to the flag and ALL for which it stands, just not the part you want it to offend. 

Don't ask I will not demand, oppose, squeal, outrage, cry. You do you; I'll do me. 

As to the Confederate flag...my view is the same.

So, if I understand,regarding the kneeling, you simply don't wish that people demand something of you or label you pejoratively. Which, is totally understandable and I agree. BTW, you will not get such accusations or labeling from me, as I think you know.

Now the substance of my question is this: Is there a scenario, where you could understand (like the one I put forth in my message that you responded to, or a hypothetical scenario), where some one doesn't show "honors" to the flag, if they feel it wasn't earned? Are you in opposition to not showing honors, no matter the scenario (or reasons why a person doesn't feel the same emotions that the flag invokes in you) or are there certain scenarios where you wouldn't be as opposed (not asking whether you would kneel, just that if you would appreciate the cause of why some one genuinely doesn't feel standing is the proper expression for them, based on their experiences, etc.)?

Coming back to the confederate flag question, if I understand your position, I think again, you will not demand anyone do something or show outrage etc. But does this mean that you are in opposition to that flag being flown? Do you consider that to be unpatriotic, owing to the reasons I stated in the previous post?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-26-2020, 02:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You're right

Which is why this whole topic is BS.

It's not okay with Jerry Jones if his players disrespect the National Anthem. But, then Jerry Jones disrespects the flag by talking during the National Anthem after stating any player who disrespects the flag by kneeling won't play.

[BmorePat87]

(07-26-2020, 12:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think it’s far more likely that people aren’t even aware of these rules than that they don’t care about them. You two are intelligent guys, it’s not that hard to see why some people will find the kneeling offensive. They even say before the anthem, “please rise to honor America”. I think another thing that rather damages the kneeling position is kneeling for the US anthem and then standing respectfully for another country’s, like China for example.

(07-26-2020, 12:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've literally never heard that phrase before the playing of the national anthem. I don't disagree with your last statement, though, but I am unaware of any occurrences of it. Mostly because this whole controversy is asinine to me so I haven't paid a ton of attention to it.

"please rise and remove your hats" is said before the National Anthem  during every O's or Ravens game, but as I mentioned in the other thread, the National Anthem is probably just as much, if not more, unofficially a City Anthem to us as it is the National Anthem. We shout "OOOOOOOO" during "O say does that". 

I understand that most people do not realize that it goes against an etiquette code, but I don't think that changes that it is hypocritical or that the reality is that the message is the biggest issue with most of them, not the act. 

[BmorePat87]

(07-26-2020, 12:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except you absolutely can do exactly that. The point of the thread is that you can’t tell people how to feel. There’s a whole lot of that going on in this thread. The basic point remains, lots of people find kneeling during the anthem offensive and if you choose to kneel then you know you are offending those people. If you’re ok with that, as a protester, then fine. But you can’t then act surprised when people are offended.

I disagree. You're free to think something, but you're not free to baselessly assign meaning to the actions of others. You can't have it both ways. 

And as I said, as soon as we turn this from "what do these protests mean to the protestors" to "what do the protests mean to me", especially in the context of being against them, you're creating a false sense of victimhood and/or a false sense of ownership or participation in them.

A player kneeling doesn't seek the approval or validation from some random guy watching at home who is inherently against his cause, nor is that person's feelings remotely relevant.

"Don't tell me how to feel about their protests". Sit down, they didn't ask your dumb ass what you thought. (lol, obviously the "you" is randomly dude at home complaining, not SSF)

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2020, 03:09 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I disagree. You're free to think something, but you're not free to baselessly assign meaning to the actions of others. You can't have it both ways. 

And as I said, as soon as we turn this from "what do these protests mean to the protestors" to "what do the protests mean to me", especially in the context of being against them, you're creating a false sense of victimhood and/or a false sense of ownership or participation in them.

A player kneeling doesn't seek the approval or validation from some random guy watching at home who is inherently against his cause, nor is that person's feelings remotely relevant.

"Don't tell me how to feel about their protests". Sit down, they didn't ask your dumb ass what you thought. (lol, obviously the "you" is randomly dude at home complaining, not SSF)

But we all do exactly that every day.  How does "x" make me feel is at the core of human interaction.  If you forget someone's birthday you're going to hurt their feelings even though that was never your intent to do so.

[BmorePat87]

(07-26-2020, 03:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But we all do exactly that every day.  How does "x" make me feel is at the core of human interaction.  If you forget someone's birthday you're going to hurt their feelings even though that was never your intent to do so.

The difference is that in your example your action directly impacted the person as it was their birthday. In this case, the person upset is an outside party looking in, trying to insert themselves into the motives or nature of the party acting, despite not being remotely involved in it.

[masterpanthera_t]

(07-26-2020, 03:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But we all do exactly that every day.  How does "x" make me feel is at the core of human interaction.  If you forget someone's birthday you're going to hurt their feelings even though that was never your intent to do so.

But that's part of my reason for asking the question that I asked. Is not standing "disrespectful" no matter what, or is the reason ever taken into account? That is, "x" might make me feel offended, but do I actually think if it's reasonable for the person doing "x", to feel offended to do "opposite of x" based on their rationale? If so, do we then get to the nitty gritty of case by case adjudication, as a whole society and debunk whatever those rationales are, if they are not valid, or accept those rationales if they are? I.e. feeling offended, I think as you mentioned, can be a daily occurrence in mundane life, but does it rise to the level of outrage that we alter our whole lives over it? Like, I will never watch the NFL again, or the name Kaepernick is now something I loathe to the point that my blood pressure will rise? I realize some of this is media build up, but genuinely many people act as if it's an affront to them personally (I'm not referring to veterans, as I feel that's more complicated than I would like to get into). It goes back to your analogy. Is my taking offense due to an action that is an affront to myself personally (a slur, a denigration of my beliefs etc.) the same as my taking offense to another's inaction due to them not feeling what I feel? Hypothetically, should I be equally offended that someone denigrated my core beliefs, vs. someone merely doesn't ascribe to them, the way I do?

[*michaelsean*]

As long as they respect the people who choose not to kneel. But seriously, I'm tired of everyone being offended. It's like our new national sport. Lots of things can be offensive in a free country, but are they affective? Yes I used the "a" on purpose to make up my own new word. Look for it next year in Websters.

[GMDino]

(07-27-2020, 09:56 AM)michaelsean Wrote: As long as they respect the people who choose not to kneel.  But seriously, I'm tired of everyone being offended.  It's like our new national sport.  Lots of things can be offensive in a free country, but are they affective?  Yes I used the "a" on purpose to make up my own new word.  Look for it next year in Websters.

Yes!

I think most people are in the corner of "stand, kneel, sit...just don't disturb other people"  which isn't a formal rule but of those societal norms we hope people will live by.  I haven't seen anyone, during the anthem, throw something at a kneeling player and I haven't seen anyone scream and someone that they SHOULD be kneeling.  Let's just let each other be.