Kobach witness can’t support claim that illegal votes helped Hillary Clinton

[CKwi88]

(03-20-2018, 01:53 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Pettiness is not dependent on the veracity of a topic. Pettiness is dependent on the seriousness and/or importance of a topic.
Trump lying about the popular vote is a petty subject because it does not matter. There are far more serious topics and many more egregious things Trump has done that warrant discussion that render a topic such as this petty.

The president of a country telling a blatant and baseless lie that undermines the integrity of our electoral process, and then wasting time and resources to try and validate that lie, is "not important"?

Granted, importance is subjective and will vary from person to person, so I can understand/respect that some would consider other Trump activities as more serious.

[*bfine32*]

(03-20-2018, 04:38 AM)Dill Wrote: Let's start with this post.

If Trump deserves blame for lying about the popular vote, then Dems are not petty for bringing up that lying.

But if the Dems are petty for bringing up the lies, then Trump deserves no blame.
You say the Dems are petty . . . ergo . . .

This carries over to other threads where you have found fault with people who find fault the POTUS. 

That is "acting like" our horn dog president who is trashing diplomacy and pushing the country to constitutional crisis with his interference in criminal procedures deserves no blame.

We never find you criticizing Trump, but ALWAYS criticizing those who critique his vulgarity and lying.

Well if you've never seen me criticize trump then you do not look very hard. I have often criticized his treatment of the Press and of the Judicial Branch and took great exception to his comments about John McCain's service. I have even called for him to be censured for his irresponsible use of social media. I am sure there are other occasions; however, these just come to mind.

Once again the instructions were to show a post where I excused Trump's pettiness of threads that I have started signing his praises. All you that think you are doing great work by complaining about everything he does or says are doing exactly the opposite of what you are hoping to achieve. If you or anybody else think I'm going to run to the ballots in 2020 and blindly select trump you are sorely mistaken, but I'll probably focus more on policy than what is said on twitter. Others will be focusing on Twitter

[treee]

(03-16-2018, 01:04 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I just roll with: he won.

I prefer: We haven't had a republican win their first term by popular vote in 30 years yet they've taken office twice. 

[Dill]

(03-20-2018, 05:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well if you've never seen me criticize trump then you do not look very hard. I have often criticized his treatment of the Press and of the Judicial Branch and took great exception to his comments about John McCain's service. I have even called for him to be censured for his irresponsible use of social media. I am sure there are other occasions; however, these just come to mind.

Once again the instructions were to show a post where I excused Trump's pettiness of threads that I have started signing his praises. All you that think you are doing great work by complaining about everything he does or says are doing exactly the opposite of what you are hoping to achieve. If you or anybody else think I'm going to run to the ballots in 2020 and blindly select trump you are sorely mistaken, but I'll probably focus more on policy than what is said on twitter. Others will be focusing on Twitter

Just to get a few things straight, Bfine--I have never characterized you as a Trumpster or a supporter of Trump, though I do say that in criticizing his critics, you are providing him cover, vertently or inadvertently, as if the problem is with the critics and not with the behavior that calls forth criticism.

You do not have to sing his praises to excuse his pettiness; all you have to do is criticize those who criticize him for his behavior. They can only be a problem if trump's behavior is not.

A president's twitter ramblings are not separate from policy. That is in part the problem.

Finally, I don't expect you to run blindly to the polls to vote for Trump. I am not casting you as a Trump supporter. I do have respect for points you make and read your posts carefully. I don't consider your views "petty."

[Dill]

(03-20-2018, 01:53 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Pettiness is not dependent on the veracity of a topic. Pettiness is dependent on the seriousness and/or importance of a topic.
Trump lying about the popular vote is a petty subject because it does not matter. There are far more serious topics and many more egregious things Trump has done that warrant discussion that render a topic such as this petty.

I agree with you on the substance of your post, Philhos. Trump has done more egregious things.  But we are complaining about those too. They are connected to "the petty" more so in him than any other president.

So we differ on what is petty and the importance petty in this case. 

I take the lying seriously because it is quite possible that Trump believes there are millions of unregistered voters tipping the scales towards Democrats. If that is true, then his ability to judge social reality and assess policy is very limited. And he is the Commander in chief of the Armed Forces and the nations Chief Diplomat. How can he possibly asses intel accurately from places like Palestine or North Africa?

Even if he knows he is lying, lying tweets from him have the authority of the office for many. They support conspiracies which have real world consequences in terms of the policies and people millions of people vote for. If Vlad or Djam throws up post claiming 3-5 million illegals voted, that has no effect. It would indeed be a waste of time to write newspaper articles about that. But when the president says such things, with his tremendous power to shape policy and shift federal monies about, then it is a very serious issue.  Masses of people are moved to "prevent illegals" from voting.

Another way to put this. These kinds of views were once fringe and could be ignored. No one in the leadership of either party or in important government offices with great responsibility would make such outrageous claims.  The import of the Trump presidency is that the fringe has come to the center of power, where it can really do damage. The tweets are part of that damage. They shore up "the petty" as policy.

[*PhilHos*]

(03-20-2018, 04:41 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: 1) The president of a country telling a blatant and baseless lie that undermines the integrity of our electoral process, and then wasting time and resources to try and validate that lie, is "not important"?

2) Granted, importance is subjective and will vary from person to person, so I can understand/respect that some would consider other Trump activities as more serious.

1) Well, first off, I don't think Trump's lying. I think he actually believes most of the crap that comes out of his mouth.

More importantly, politicians LIE. It's what they do. President's both present an dpast have wasted time and resources in all different manners that many have complained about.

In this particular instance, aside from the wasted time and resources which hasn't caused us to take money from starving kids or something equally horrible, this topic is rather petty, IMO Which leads me to ...

2) I think you're correct that there is definitely a subjectivity to what one might consider petty. The topic at hand, for example, is a petty topic IN MY OPINION. You seem to disagree and that's ok. 

(03-20-2018, 06:29 PM)Dill Wrote: I agree with you on the substance of your post, Philhos. Trump has done more egregious things.  But we are complaining about those too. They are connected to "the petty" more so in him than any other president.

So we differ on what is petty and the importance petty in this case. 

I take the lying seriously because it is quite possible that Trump believes there are millions of unregistered voters tipping the scales towards Democrats. If that is true, then his ability to judge social reality and assess policy is very limited. And he is the Commander in chief of the Armed Forces and the nations Chief Diplomat. How can he possibly asses intel accurately from places like Palestine or North Africa?

Even if he knows he is lying, lying tweets from him have the authority of the office for many. They support conspiracies which have real world consequences in terms of the policies and people millions of people vote for. If Vlad or Djam throws up post claiming 3-5 million illegals voted, that has no effect. It would indeed be a waste of time to write newspaper articles about that. But when the president says such things, with his tremendous power to shape policy and shift federal monies about, then it is a very serious issue.  Masses of people are moved to "prevent illegals" from voting.

Another way to put this. These kinds of views were once fringe and could be ignored. No one in the leadership of either party or in important government offices with great responsibility would make such outrageous claims.  The import of the Trump presidency is that the fringe has come to the center of power, where it can really do damage. The tweets are part of that damage. They shore up "the petty" as policy.

Agree to disagree because I just don't see it that way.

[Dill]

(03-22-2018, 03:30 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Agree to disagree because I just don't see it that way.

I genuinely would have liked to hear why you don't see the consequences of his behavior that I do, but no problem.  Thanks for answering.