"My" people

[*PhilHos*]

(04-13-2018, 03:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:  When talking about this, and other topics that one would often associate with black people, the professor gestures more towards the black students and looks their way more often than when we are discussing topics people would associate with white people, or maybe Hispanic/Latino groups.

This is kind of what I'm talking about. Is he REALLY gesturing more towards black students when referencing black topics or is that just something that they THINK. I'm not there, obviously, but is it possible that the teacher makes the same gestures at other times but it only APPEARS as if he's gesturing towards blacks because they have it in their minds that's what he's doing?

Maybe he is gesturing this way in YOUR class, but can you see where in a similar, but different situation where someone could THINK that someone is gesturing to them when speaking on a subject about their race when it's common for the speaker ot make the same gesture for all kinds of topics?

[Dill]

(04-13-2018, 01:26 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But, what about a majority of Americans? Granted, I wish it would be "all" and, who knows, maybe someday it will be all, but if a significant majority of Americans recognize him as an American, shouldn't that be enough?

Not to mention that it doesn't help that many people of color segregate themselves.

You make a good point there.  Seems over the top to expect EVERYONE to acccept whatever minority is in question before acceptance is no longer an issue.  Not the right standard, because there will always be a few Klansmen or Nazis squirreled away somewhere, and who have no effect on anything outside their own yard.

The question is, what counts as a significant majority, and have we reached it yet?

Connected to that is a further question--at what point does lack of acceptance no longer matter politically for x minority? That should probably be the standard.

Bels is throwing up a lot of hard data to suggest that while things look ok to us white folk, there are still some hurdles that blacks and other minorities face which we do not "see" or experience, in part because they are buried in paperwork and ordinary-seeming administrative/legal decisions.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-13-2018, 03:50 PM)Dill Wrote: You make a good point there.  Seems over the top to expect EVERYONE to acccept whatever minority is in question before acceptance is no longer an issue.  Not the right standard, because there will always be a few Klansmen or Nazis squirreled away somewhere, and who have no effect on anything outside their own yard. 

Honestly, it scares me when you agree with me. lol 

(04-13-2018, 03:50 PM)Dill Wrote: The question is, what counts as a significant majority, and have we reached it yet? 

Good question. IMO, I would say no less than 75% and, call me naive, but I like to think that we have reached it. That's not to say we can sit back and do NOTHING, that there still isn't more that could be done, but I think that, generally speaking, Americans of all races are accepting of other races.

(04-13-2018, 03:50 PM)Dill Wrote: Connected to that is a further question--at what point does lack of acceptance no longer matter politically for x minority? That should probably be the standard.

To me, the lack of acceptance should matter if they're not being heard and/or represented. Or if the lack of acceptance comes from those in authority.

[Dill]

(04-13-2018, 03:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So these are minor things that happen all of the time. One example that happened today was a discussion we were having about globalization. Now, in a classroom of over 100, there are about 4 black students in the room. 2 of them sit right behind me (I sit in the front because I'm old and can't hear or see well ). In our talking about globalization, we have talked about hip-hop culture and the way it has spread across the world, specifically in reference to the Japanese hip-hop culture. When talking about this, and other topics that one would often associate with black people, the professor gestures more towards the black students and looks their way more often than when we are discussing topics people would associate with white people, or maybe Hispanic/Latino groups.

It's a very minor thing and it seems inconsequential to most people, but it impacts these students. The two that sit behind me talk about it sometimes and it is very interesting. I've had some conversations with them about this and how common this sort of thing is. It's not that the professor has any bad intentions or that there is any negative association the professor has, but it is a reminder to these students, and the rest of the room, that they are different and they are among us. They shrug it off because of those factors and because they are so used to it.

 does he ever call them "his" African Americans when he gestures to them? 

If I were a professor and talking about Japan to a class with some Japanese students, I might throw a glance their way occasionally, wondering how they react to what I am saying. 

But associating Japanese students with Japan does not seem to be invoking a stereotype as does associating hip hip with black students in general. Sort of like nodding to the black students when talking about watermelon.

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 03:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: This is kind of what I'm talking about. Is he REALLY gesturing more towards black students when referencing black topics or is that just something that they THINK. I'm not there, obviously, but is it possible that the teacher makes the same gestures at other times but it only APPEARS as if he's gesturing towards blacks because they have it in their minds that's what he's doing?

Maybe he is gesturing this way in YOUR class, but can you see where in a similar, but different situation where someone could THINK that someone is gesturing to them when speaking on a subject about their race when it's common for the speaker ot make the same gesture for all kinds of topics?

This isn't purely their observation, though. It's something I, and other students, have noticed as well. Like I said, these are unconscious things that everyone does to some degree. That chart I posted had a breakdown where, what, 68% of people that took the IAT for race between 2012 and 2015 showed at least a slight unconscious preference for white people over black people. Only 18% showed no preference, and maybe you're in that group and so you aren't aware, I don't know. But 82% of people have at least a slight association one way or the other.

[Belsnickel]

I think one of my favorite things in this thread, so far, has been that in discussing implicit racial biases we have some good evidence of implicit gender biases, as well.

[Dill]

(04-13-2018, 03:08 PM)michaelsean Wrote: We'd have a division somehow.  Always have.  Tribal, clan, race.  Saxons, Angles, Picts, Jutes, Norse etc, all white people and all hating the other groups.

Like with these twin sisters. The white girl will hate the black one because she is African American.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2018, 05:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:  The whole concept of race was constructed by western (white, upper-class, Eurpopeans or of European descent) academics. 

I have some Jewish friends who would disagree with this claim.

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 05:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have some Jewish friends who would disagree with this claim.

Good for you.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-13-2018, 02:40 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm not saying there is no voluntary segregation along racial lines, just that it isn't always (or most often) voluntary on the part of minorities. Groups tend to stick together with those most like them. White people hold, and have held, more power and ability to make those decisions in our country. The more likely scenario is that segregation is encouraged and facilitated by those holding the power.

Yup....and they're controlled by the folks that stuff their pockets....who....control the media.

[fredtoast]

(04-13-2018, 01:06 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Well, sure, if you're encountering a known racist, I'd be shocked if you DIDN'T expect them to do or say something racist.

Police are known racist.  It has been proven that they use racial profiling, and that creates a problem for black people when they are stopped by police.  They don't know if it is because of race or not.  

Not all strangers are dangerous to my kids but I teach my kids to not trust ANY strangers.

[fredtoast]

(04-13-2018, 05:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Good for you.

I'll tell them exactly what you said to support your opinion.

I am sure they will be impressed.

[fredtoast]

(04-13-2018, 01:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/index.jsp

I don't understand what they used to divide theses people into two different groups in order to study this "race" issue.

Can you explain this to me Bels?

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 06:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll tell them exactly what you said to support your opinion.

I am sure they will be impressed.

Support my opinion against what? People you know having opinions contrary to mine but otherwise ambiguous? Do go on about their opinions, which you have not actually expressed other than being in disagreement with mine, and the rationale behind them. I am sure that your post will show an indepth understanding of the concept of race given our last daliance on the subject.

(04-13-2018, 06:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't understand what they used to divide theses people into two different groups in order to study this "race" issue.

Can you explain this to me Bels?

You should click on the link and read the about section. It's a whole research project on implicit biases. It's a good time and they could explain it better than I could.

[StLucieBengal]

(04-13-2018, 04:39 PM)Dill Wrote: Like with these twin sisters. The white girl will hate the black one because she is African American.

The black relatives will also favor the lightest color child. Especially the older ones.

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 07:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The black relatives will also favor the lightest color child. Especially the older ones.

Interestingly enough, you ain't wrong. Though this is further evidence of what I have been saying.

[StLucieBengal]

(04-13-2018, 07:27 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Interestingly enough, you ain't wrong. Though this is further evidence of what I have been saying.

That we like what we like.... most people just follow the crowd. In Africa I’m sure It’s completely different.

Everyone is biased, and they shouldnt apologize for it either.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-13-2018, 03:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So these are minor things that happen all of the time. One example that happened today was a discussion we were having about globalization. Now, in a classroom of over 100, there are about 4 black students in the room. 2 of them sit right behind me (I sit in the front because I'm old and can't hear or see well ). In our talking about globalization, we have talked about hip-hop culture and the way it has spread across the world, specifically in reference to the Japanese hip-hop culture. When talking about this, and other topics that one would often associate with black people, the professor gestures more towards the black students and looks their way more often than when we are discussing topics people would associate with white people, or maybe Hispanic/Latino groups.

It's a very minor thing and it seems inconsequential to most people, but it impacts these students. The two that sit behind me talk about it sometimes and it is very interesting. I've had some conversations with them about this and how common this sort of thing is. It's not that the professor has any bad intentions or that there is any negative association the professor has, but it is a reminder to these students, and the rest of the room, that they are different and they are among us. They shrug it off because of those factors and because they are so used to it.

Thanks.

I hated adults in my class. Always sat in the front and when we were about to be dismissed the professor would ask if there were any questions and those bastards’ hands would go up every time.

[Belsnickel]

(04-13-2018, 07:50 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Thanks.

I hated adults in my class. Always sat in the front and when we were about to be dismissed the professor would ask if there were any questions and those bastards’ hands would go up every time.

I always sit in the front, but I'm not one to ask questions like that. I hated the people that did that when I was younger, as well.

I try to help provide a point of view the students might not otherwise get because of my age, which can be fun.

[Dill]

(04-13-2018, 07:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The black relatives will also favor the lightest color child.  Especially the older ones.

Wondering 1) why you think that, and 2) if you realize each girl has the same relatives.