Concentration Camps in Italy?

[Dill]

(12-27-2017, 09:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Warmth in your interactions only comes with the conversion from "Sie" to "du".

Nicht immer.  An older couple lived above us for seven years. We considered them good friends. They babysat for us. We had long talks about the War and post-war period and problems with their grandkids. They cried while they talked sometimes. We always addressed them as "Sie."

Then one day I attended a seminar at the U. of Heidelberg, my first time in a German university. After a round of discussion, I noticed that everyone, including the professor, called one another "Du." And they corrected me on that. Too much "Abstand" or something. Those were all people I had only just met. (That was a seminar in the French department; maybe it's different in engineering or physics.)

Ok, so I figured maybe I've been too uptight. I went home that afternoon and the elderly couple came down to visit. I started calling them "Du," then stopped. Their facial expression clearly showed surprise and offense.  I went back to "Sie" and kept it that way. So I think it is a generational thing. Most people my age who were social acquaintances or real friends I called "Du"--my kids teachers, neighbors, my wife's co workers, friends from the university hospital, fellow students from the Mannheimer Abendakademie. Older people, my parents age, I called "Sie" even if I knew them well.  People at the bank or the Apotheke or the cashier at the grocery store I also called "Sie." Doctors I always called "Sie," until we had dinner with them. Nurses on my daughter's ward I also called "Sie." My daughter's kindergarten teacher I called "Sie," aber sie war ziemlich verklemmt. (Und wo bleibt der Hollo? Er kann meine Erfahrungen sicher bestaetigen.)

One more anecdote. I saw the philosopher Hans Georg Gadamer speak once at Heidelberg. After his lecture, he told a story about how he still called colleagues of 50 years "Sie."  He was proud of that and did not like the current casual usage of Du. But he was in his late 80s at the time. 

[Dill]

(12-27-2017, 09:19 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Lira? You are showing your age, my friend!

Reminds me of a story. I had to hop a train in Milan from the new airport to the old one. The train caught fire en route (I'm told this happens quite often). Not a bad smoke and death on the train type fire. Just in the undercarriage somewhere. So they got us all off of the train and there we stood. Not being real fluent in Italian at the time, I wasn't sure where I was or what I should do next. Just standing next to the train tracks in the middle of Milan. Fortunately, I had made friends with a German dude on the flight over. He hailed me cab and (as I picked up from my limited Italian) threatened the driver about overcharging me. Good guy! The drive through Milan was pretty harrowing, though (and that is even comparing it to the driving in Napoli!!!).

But, yeah, the German reputation for precision and exactitude is pretty much unsurpassed.

Umm yeah. That was 1986.  I left Europe in '93 and never saw a Euro until I went back in 2006.

When were you in Italy? Did you stay long? I lived in Vicenza for 10 weeks.

[Bengalzona]

(12-28-2017, 01:02 AM)Dill Wrote: Umm yeah. That was 1986.  I left Europe in '93 and never saw a Euro until I went back in 2006.

When were you in Italy? Did you stay long? I lived in Vicenza for 10 weeks.

The last time I was in Italy was in 2004. They were nuts about the Euro then because it was so new. My ticket price back then was ridiculously low (Like about $600 roundtrip). I made two two week stays in Sorrento.

I've made a couple of trips back to Europe since then to France, Romania and Belgium. My wife has also made a couple of trips without me (Spain, Portugal, Austria and Italy last year).

[hollodero]

(12-28-2017, 12:34 AM)Dill Wrote: (Und wo bleibt der Hollo? Er kann meine Erfahrungen sicher bestaetigen.)

Yeah, you pretty much figured it out - especially that it's really hard to determine the rules, or any strict rules for that matter. Generally speaking, "Sie" is used to show respect or establish/acknowledge distance or both. It's very much dependant on context, and on personal fashion, it's also very much a generational thing as you said. Mid-30s like myself do not use "Sie" quite that often anymore. Older people might even address long-time acquaintances with "Sie" still. I know a case where a grown-up son would still address his own father with "Sie", although that's certainly quite exceptional.
If it's clear that a meeting has a somewhat "professional" context and the encounter will stay brief, e.g. you're buying something in a store, "Sie" is used quite universally. Also, when someone calls me "Sie" (which seldomly happens) it usually is done so I am shown that person doesn't intend to bother me beyond that one occasion. In that sense, it's quite pleasant.
But generally, it also depends on how casual a person appears to be, or how casual suroundings are. There really are no rules beyond that. I had quite a lot of different jobs and came across all kinds of workplace customs, from the universal "Sie" to the "Sie" only used for superiors (but sometimes not used by them in return) to the universal "du" for everyone top to bottom. I always figured it out, although I could not really describe what the obvious signs were. Also in personal encounters there are some rules, but not too rigid ones. E.g. if I meet friends of my mother I haven't met yet I use "du" almost always, because I just know that's the kind of people my mother is friends with and that's the kind of casualty she prefers. With friends of my father, that's quite the different story, other people, other atmosphere, other preferences, and the "Sie" is way more common, and in fact I can't even say which is better or worse. The "Sie" is not without charm and can elevate an encounter. If this were a German-speaking board, for example, I would probably address all of you with "Sie". Wouldn't necessarily be out of respect, I could as well say "Sie sind ein Dummkopf" (not to you, of course). Phrases like that can be heard quite often (traffic etc.)

OK, it's becoming clear one could write an essay without really getting to the point on that one. The more formal encounters are, the greater the age difference is, the more formal people seem to be (think suit vs. T-shirt), the less people know each other, the more likely the "Sie" is fitting. Also, (northern) Germany is quite different from Austria or Bavaria, and I wouldn't have an easy time in Germany as well figuring that one out. And few things are more uncomfortable as when you actually don't know which one applies, I had my times where I would avoid adressing my counterpart directly because I wouldn't know which word to use.

-- Lastly, although it's not really wrong or a mistake, you probably shouldn't use the word "verklemmt" for a woman. My first thought would be "oh, wouldn't she undress?" - and the kid's teacher is generally addressed with "Sie", it would seem odd to me to do otherwise still.

[Dill]

(12-28-2017, 02:42 AM)hollodero Wrote: OK, it's becoming clear one could write an essay without really getting to the point on that one. The more formal encounters are, the greater the age difference is, the more formal people seem to be (think suit vs. T-shirt), the less people know each other, the more likely the "Sie" is fitting. Also, (northern) Germany is quite different from Austria or Bavaria, and I wouldn't have an easy time in Germany as well figuring that one out. And few things are more uncomfortable as when you actually don't know which one applies, I had my times where I would avoid adressing my counterpart directly because I wouldn't know which word to use.

-- Lastly, although it's not really wrong or a mistake, you probably shouldn't use the word "verklemmt" for a woman. My first thought would be "oh, wouldn't she undress?" - and the kid's teacher is generally addressed with "Sie", it would seem odd to me to do otherwise still.

 As for the kindergarten teacher, I was thinking "uptight" as in hung up. Constipated.  My kids' home room teachers and other parents I always addressed as "Du" after the first few encounters, but not her. Funny because she taught in a Waldorf Kindergarten where they're supposed to be more "gelassen" and all. 

I add that I didn't call all teachers "Du." I was thinking of home room teachers. In the Grundschule, our relation to them was very different than in the US. Once a month ours would meet at a lokal with interested parents to discuss projects. So that was pretty informal. Then kids had the same one for two years, grades 1-2 and 3-4.  But it would seem odd to address other teachers that way (e.g., the gym or music teacher, the Rektor, or any staff). In front of students I always addressed teachers as "Frau" or "Herr" regardless of how well I knew them.

We weren't the only Auslaender--lots of Turks and people from the East. My daughter's Gymnasium had 26 different nationalities.  Some teachers were willing to break down the "Sie" distance, I think, to create community. We left Germany before my daughter could enter the sixth grade. Seven years later she got a signed card from all the kids graduating from her home room. They still considered her part of the class. So different from the US. We remained in touch with one of the teachers for years after we left.

A point about your not-getting-to-the-point regarding "Sie" and "Du." That was a pretty rich, useful description, I think, working in so many contextual clues.  It would be good for American students to read. Also it piqued my interest. I wonder if German speakers are even more casual now than 30 years ago and what regional differences might be. I always thought of Austria as rather more conservative than Germany and Northern Germany more liberal than Southern. I could add that I always addressed as "Sie" anyone I would call "Mr." or "Mrs." or "Dr." or "sir/maam" in the U.S.  (As in "Excuse me sir, is there a post office nearby?")

Also, my impression was that a familiarly disrespectful "Du" was a force multiplier when it came to insults. "Du Arschloch" in traffic has more force than a rather than a still formal "Sie sind ein Dummkopf". Or does that just sound like Auslaender Deutsch? Pretty sure I've heard angry drunken Germans calling one another that.

[Dill]

(12-28-2017, 02:36 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: The last time I was in Italy was in 2004. They were nuts about the Euro then because it was so new. My ticket price back then was ridiculously low (Like about $600 roundtrip). I made two two week stays in Sorrento.

I've made a couple of trips back to Europe since then to France, Romania and Belgium. My wife has also made a couple of trips without me (Spain, Portugal, Austria and Italy last year).

Yow, I've never been that far South.  I'm told the culture changes somewhat south of Rome. And traffic in Naples is the craziest in Europe. Locals know which lights and stop signs to ignore.  I'm guessing you were soaking up all the history there too.

(Never been to Romania.)

[Bengalzona]

(12-28-2017, 07:07 AM)Dill Wrote: Yow, I've never been that far South.  I'm told the culture changes somewhat south of Rome. And traffic in Naples is the craziest in Europe. Locals know which lights and stop signs to ignore.  I'm guessing you were soaking up all the history there too.

(Never been to Romania.)

Yes. The traffic in Naples is legendary. When you need to cross a street, you just go. There's no being polite about it. They will stop, even if there is 300 cars on the avenue. And they honk and yell at each other a lot, but they never (ever) actually get mad at each other. As I recall, it is called " 'sfugari", which basically translates to "leaving it all on the field of play".

It's amazing how quickly you get used to it, though. And even appreciate it.

[hollodero]

(12-28-2017, 06:50 AM)Dill Wrote: As for the kindergarten teacher, I was thinking "uptight" as in hung up. Constipated.

Sure, as I said it's not a wrong word to use, it's just a bit dangerous, or say tainted. If some guy told me he met a guy that was verklemmt, I'd think he was awkwardly shy or holding back. If he told me he met a woman that was verklemmt, it might as well mean she wouldn't let him go to any base or was in some other way sexually unsatisfying due to shame or a lack of enthusiasm or libido. The word has that innuendo when used for a woman. Whatever.

(12-28-2017, 06:50 AM)Dill Wrote: My kids' home room teachers and other parents I always addressed as "Du" after the first few encounters, but not her. Funny because she taught in a Waldorf Kindergarten where they're supposed to be more "gelassen" and all. 

I add that I didn't call all teachers "Du." I was thinking of home room teachers. In the Grundschule, our relation to them was very different than in the US. Once a month ours would meet at a lokal with interested parents to discuss projects. So that was pretty informal. Then kids had the same one for two years, grades 1-2 and 3-4.  But it would seem odd to address other teachers that way (e.g., the gym or music teacher, the Rektor, or any staff). In front of students I always addressed teachers as "Frau" or "Herr" regardless of how well I knew them.

We weren't the only Auslaender--lots of Turks and people from the East. My daughter's Gymnasium had 26 different nationalities. Some teachers were willing to break down the "Sie" distance, I think, to create community. We left Germany before my daughter could enter the sixth grade. Seven years later she got a signed card from all the kids graduating from her home room. They still considered her part of the class. So different from the US. We remained in touch with one of the teachers for years after we left.

OK, Waldorf schools sure are a different cup of tea, one I wouldn't know much about. "Normal" teachers wouldn't stay in contact wih former pupil's parents for years, and calling those teachers "Du" would sound quite inappropriate to me. I never stayed in touch with any exchange student either. The experience you had sure was fine, but sure isn't typical.

(12-28-2017, 06:50 AM)Dill Wrote: A point about your not-getting-to-the-point regarding "Sie" and "Du." That was a pretty rich, useful description, I think, working in so many contextual clues.  It would be good for American students to read. Also it piqued my interest. I wonder if German speakers are even more casual now than 30 years ago

Oh, most certainly. My generation is way more willing to use "du", in a private social gathering only a few people would seriously consider otherwise. For my parents' generation, that was and is completely different.

(12-28-2017, 06:50 AM)Dill Wrote: and what regional differences might be.

Honestly, that I don't know for sure as well. Northern Germany is quite foreign land to me also in many ways. As usual, rural areas are different to urban ones, but I can't really speak for the German countryside. I know my ways in Bavaria or in a city like Berlin, but that's about it.

(12-28-2017, 06:50 AM)Dill Wrote: I always thought of Austria as rather more conservative than Germany and Northern Germany more liberal than Southern.

That is quite true. The cities are exceptions though, but there are more cities and less country in Northern Germany as in Austria or Bavaria. Country folk are quite conservative and we have more of those. So, Vienna is quite liberal (in comparison) and quite atypical for the rest of the country. I guess it's similar to Bavaria and Munich (although Munich is more conservative than Vienna still, as far as I can tell.)

(12-28-2017, 06:50 AM)Dill Wrote: I could add that I always addressed as "Sie" anyone I would call "Mr." or "Mrs." or "Dr." or "sir/maam" in the U.S.  (As in "Excuse me sir, is there a post office nearby?")

Ah, that is an useful rule of thumb. Didn't think of that explanation, but that's probably quite accurate. Then again, people asking me for directions often use "du" as well, which doesn't strike me as odd or wrong at all. And the combination first name + "Sie" does exist sometimes (although it's seldom).

(12-28-2017, 06:50 AM)Dill Wrote: Also, my impression was that a familiarly disrespectful "Du" was a force multiplier when it came to insults. "Du Arschloch" in traffic has more force than a rather than a still formal "Sie sind ein Dummkopf". Or does that just sound like Auslaender Deutsch? Pretty sure I've heard angry drunken Germans calling one another that.

Yeah you're right. I held back in my example, as if there were a filter for bad German words here. You could, however, hear "Sie Arschloch" as well as "Du Arschloch" - the latter would more imply you're really up for a fight, while the "Sie" variation more means that you just wanted the other one to know what you think about him without really wishing to further expand that. I guess. I myself only call people on TV or actual friends Arschloch, though, when they score a goal in FIFA or occasions like that. But I'm more peaceful than most.

[Belsnickel]

I'm very pleased I could initiate a discussion on the intricacies of Sie versus du in the German language.

I know it's a complex thing and my broad statement earlier wasn't entirely accurate, but it can be fun to make those generalities for a joke.

[Dill]

(12-28-2017, 08:50 AM)hollodero Wrote: OK, Waldorf schools sure are a different cup of tea, one I wouldn't know much about. "Normal" teachers wouldn't stay in contact wih former pupil's parents for years, and calling those teachers "Du" would sound quite inappropriate to me. I never stayed in touch with any exchange student either. The experience you had sure was fine, but sure isn't typical.

??? We were residents of Germany, domiciled there for a decade, paid German taxes etc. That might make a difference in the eyes of her class/teacher. She was also popular, elected Klassensprecherin, etc. And more fluent in German than English. So maybe she wasn't perceived as an exchange student/temporary foreigner. As a foreigner it was/is still not always clear to me what was atypical. I assumed my daughter's experience was more typical. Maybe not.

Some aspects of our situation made relations with others atypcial. My wife was an opera singer, an esteemed profession in Europe. We got lots of invitations. And because we were "liberal" Americans we were easy to socialize with. I may have told you my daughter was treated for Leukemia in Heidelberg. We met many other parents and become very close with some over two years of treatment. But we were the only parents who also socialized with doctors and staff. My wife got the chief doctor and several others a box at the Nationaltheater for a performance. Some had us over for dinner and we reciprocated. The psychologist and her husband, an economics professor, became long term friends. One of the doctors even visited us in the states years later.  This might explain our experience with the home room teachers as well.  We violated norms and broke existing patterns, sure; sometimes we were aware of this, sometimes not. (By the way, we are still close to two families. We have exchanged several visits. Last year my wife went back for a funeral. I know other Americans who have retained connections over decades as well.) 

Also, I don't know if you have kids. You might see teachers differently when you are "partners" helping your child.  

(12-28-2017, 08:50 AM)hollodero Wrote: Oh, most certainly. My generation is way more willing to use "du", in a private social gathering only a few people would seriously consider otherwise. For my parents' generation, that was and is completely different.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend's father. I told him that German in old movies seemed clearer, more "gepflegt" than in contemporary movies and television. (I loved watching Krimis like Tatort). He told me that people commonly used to speak that way, with higher standards, were more articulate, with larger vocabularies. Not only was linguistic formality more respected, he claims, but people enunciated more correctly and used proper declension.  He was Prussian, by the way.

[hollodero]

(12-29-2017, 01:58 AM)Dill Wrote: ??? We were residents of Germany, domiciled there for a decade, paid German taxes etc. That might make a difference in the eyes of her class/teacher. She was also popular, elected Klassensprecherin, etc. And more fluent in German than English. So maybe she wasn't perceived as an exchange student/temporary foreigner. As a foreigner it was/is still not always clear to me what was atypical. I assumed my daughter's experience was more typical. Maybe not.

"Exchange student" definitely was the wrong term to use for your situation. This is the one time of the year I remind someone that I never actively use the English language like, ever, so I consistently get expressions all wrong. I just wondered about a class remembering classmates seven years in the future. No one in my class would have remembered for more than a few months. Then again, I learn again and again that other folk are really more long-standing friends than the typical Austrian, including me. We are the "move on" types in these regards, Germans maybe not so much. Especially in your circumstances and with Waldorf that is more comunity-oriented I'd guess.

(12-29-2017, 01:58 AM)Dill Wrote: Some aspects of our situation made relations with others atypcial. My wife was an opera singer, an esteemed profession in Europe. We got lots of invitations.

Oh... that sure is quite atypical. An opera singer is quite remarkable to begin with, and indeed high esteemed.

(12-29-2017, 01:58 AM)Dill Wrote: And because we were "liberal" Americans we were easy to socialize with. I may have told you my daughter was treated for Leukemia in Heidelberg.

Yeah I remember that.

(12-29-2017, 01:58 AM)Dill Wrote: We met many other parents and become very close with some over two years of treatment. But we were the only parents who also socialized with doctors and staff. My wife got the chief doctor and several others a box at the Nationaltheater for a performance. Some had us over for dinner and we reciprocated. The psychologist and her husband, an economics professor, became long term friends. One of the doctors even visited us in the states years later.  This might explain our experience with the home room teachers as well.  We violated norms and broke existing patterns, sure; sometimes we were aware of this, sometimes not. (By the way, we are still close to two families. We have exchanged several visits. Last year my wife went back for a funeral. I know other Americans who have retained connections over decades as well.) 

I might get the picture. Exceptional people get exceptional treatment.

(12-29-2017, 01:58 AM)Dill Wrote: Also, I don't know if you have kids. You might see teachers differently when you are "partners" helping your child.  

Oh of course, especially in your situation. I don't have kids (my genes are too precious to share) but know people who do in a more "normal" setting, as far as I know they all keep quite some distance to teachers. I also know teachers and have never heard them talking about socializing with "normal" parents of "normal" kids. I guess many would see that as unprofessional. The Waldorf approach sure is different from the get-go.
OK, there is one story that includes a mother and things, but that would lead too far.

(12-29-2017, 01:58 AM)Dill Wrote: This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend's father. I told him that German in old movies seemed clearer, more "gepflegt" than in contemporary movies and television. (I loved watching Krimis like Tatort). He told me that people commonly used to speak that way, with higher standards, were more articulate, with larger vocabularies. Not only was linguistic formality more respected, he claims, but people enunciated more correctly and used proper declension.  He was Prussian, by the way.

Yeah my father says the same thing. I guess there's something to it. Then again, I always figured there was some kind of greater distinction between an educated bourgeoisie and "common" folks that didn't interact much, the latter just weren't on the radar all that much, that this was some kind of bubble and actually not everyone had that kind of polished language. At which point he told me I'm wrong and how my generation has lost so much compared to his father's generation and how dumbed down everything got and tradition and bla, to which I usually said oh good and fine, so we're dumb and uneducated and talk like shit, but at least we're not Nazis... which was a good way to escalate things.
But that Prussian might be right. Maybe schools were more focused on such things, but mainly I guss there were fewer distractions and no TV and so on... so also less opportunity to pick up bad speaking habits, interactions on a more elevated level, I can see that. Today's culture sure has gotten more "folksy" and less sophisticated.

[Dill]

(12-28-2017, 07:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm very pleased I could initiate a discussion on the intricacies of Sie versus du in the German language.

I know it's a complex thing and my broad statement earlier wasn't entirely accurate, but it can be fun to make those generalities for a joke.

Well, in my case, it triggered a lot of memories. Nostalgia.
So recalling all that Sie/Du stuff was fun, (though probably boring for everyone else).

[Dill]

(12-29-2017, 03:59 AM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah my father says the same thing. I guess there's something to it. Then again, I always figured there was some kind of greater distinction between an educated bourgeoisie and "common" folks that didn't interact much, the latter just weren't on the radar all that much, that this was some kind of bubble and actually not everyone had that kind of polished language. At which point he told me I'm wrong and how my generation has lost so much compared to his father's generation and how dumbed down everything got and tradition and bla, to which I usually said oh good and fine, so we're dumb and uneducated and talk like shit, but at least we're not Nazis... which was a good way to escalate things.
But that Prussian might be right. Maybe schools were more focused on such things, but mainly I guss there were fewer distractions and no TV and so on... so also less opportunity to pick up bad speaking habits, interactions on a more elevated level, I can see that. Today's culture sure has gotten more "folksy" and less sophisticated.

Er, my daughter went to a Waldorf Kindergarten, but public Grundschule and Gymnasium. We had good friends who were Waldorf boosters, but I don't like their system. Too "spiritual."

I asked my Prussian friend if the higher standards were true for "common folk" as well as educated. He gave an emphatic "yes." We are talking about the '30s, 40s, and 50s. But we have the same phenomenon in the US. Reading standards went down with the rise of television, and dropped again with the appearance of video games and cell phones. Reality television may also play a role in normalizing underachievement.  My impression of German schools was that their standards of literacy were more exacting than Americans (though these varied among the Laender--Hesse being maybe the lowest), so I am sure the US situation is worse than theirs. I'm betting Austrian schools are not much different from German in that respect.

LOL maybe you reacted too soon with the Nazi comeback, what with the right wing resurgence in Europe. If you do eventually share your genes, you might be telling your kids how liberal people were in your time.  Still, you ought to remind your father that, to whatever depths  your generation has sunk, you, at least, are hardly ungebildet. Is his English as good as yours?

[Dill]

(12-27-2017, 09:19 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Lira? You are showing your age, my friend!

Reminds me of a story. I had to hop a train in Milan from the new airport to the old one. The train caught fire en route (I'm told this happens quite often). Not a bad smoke and death on the train type fire. Just in the undercarriage somewhere. So they got us all off of the train and there we stood. Not being real fluent in Italian at the time, I wasn't sure where I was or what I should do next. Just standing next to the train tracks in the middle of Milan. Fortunately, I had made friends with a German dude on the flight over. He hailed me cab and (as I picked up from my limited Italian) threatened the driver about overcharging me. Good guy! The drive through Milan was pretty harrowing, though (and that is even comparing it to the driving in Napoli!!!).

But, yeah, the German reputation for precision and exactitude is pretty much unsurpassed.

Something about this thread has gotten me free-associating about Europe.  While reading this I remembered when we first drove into Italy from Lugano.  Every few miles there was a traffic jam on the Autostrada because of accidents.  My first two weeks there I saw more accidents than I had seen in my entire life.  Subito!   This was true of back roads too. And I saw such scary near misses. When I remarked on this people just shrugged. Nothing you could do. That's just the way life is.  Like Americans with gun violence.  Germans drive fast, but they are careful. I remember driving around Paris and noticing most every car had dents and scrapes--but I never saw an accident. I drove to France at least twice a year and never saw an accident on a French highway.

[hollodero]

(12-29-2017, 05:04 AM)Dill Wrote: I asked my Prussian friend if the higher standards were true for "common folk" as well as educated. He gave an emphatic "yes." We are talking about the '30s, 40s, and 50s. But we have the same phenomenon in the US. Reading standards went down with the rise of television, and dropped again with the appearance of video games and cell phones. Reality television may also play a role in normalizing underachievement.  My impression of German schools was that their standards of literacy were more exacting than Americans (though these varied among the Laender--Hesse being maybe the lowest), so I am sure the US situation is worse than theirs. I'm betting Austrian schools are not much different from German in that respect.

Probably not, of course there are better and worse schools. But I'd also guess overall our level is higher than the American level.

(12-29-2017, 05:04 AM)Dill Wrote: LOL maybe you reacted too soon with the Nazi comeback, what with the right wing resurgence in Europe. If you do eventually share your genes, you might be telling your kids how liberal people were in your time.

Maybe... although I don't go very far in defending my generation, I already said once that I believe Austrians to be among the stupidest folk on the continent. The second rise of the Austrian right (they are not Nazis anymore, just regular demagogic hate-mongering primitive arseholes) isn't that coincidental.

And sure, the Nazi comeback is tough, I might have shortened the debate a bit though. But there's only so much praising the Nazi generation that I can stomach, and regarding them as some kind of role model I should learn from really is too much.
My father was distinctly anti-Nazi himself, but like many had a strange sense of tolerance. He and his girlfriend were kind of friends with some Nazis, and by that I mean not former. He told me to be respectful to them, I told him that while I won't embarrass him I sure as hell don't put on my friendly face towards a Nazi. Which lead to him telling me that I am ignorant and smug and that I could be more empathic and whatnot. He also was a member of the first right party rise in Austria, you sure know that Jörg Haider guy, who indeed seemed Naziesque. Holding I guess one might say rallies at former SS veteran metings and talking about a decent employment policy in the Third Reich our actual government isn't capable of and then some things. I took issue with those things and he took issue with me taking issue. To him it was all just a misunderstanding and the evil state media blows it up and bla.
Just one occasion, not to emphazise on personal history, but maybe this gets more interesting for some still. Come Christmas he had the ritual to go to the cemetery to visit his mother's grave. Every year, the Kameradschaftsbund would come there as well. Marching in with military music in goose step, assembling and then talking about the fallen SS comrades and the SS comradery in general, in awe and with no sense of a critical approach. That was still happening deep in the '90s and I found it deeply troubling. He, however, claimed they would just think of their friends and there's nothing to it. While I would think they could do that somewhere private without holding a public SS parade.
Effing tolerance.
Also, sure Hitler brought the people from the streets, give him credit for that... yeah great, put them in a killing machinery instead and turn them into soldiers, that sure is great. He also built the highways and without him we sure wouldn't have those now. It's all so strange, but I guess for him it was about his own father, who was a Nazi, and like my other grandfather not just a little guy in the system. My mother's family never talked much about that, and that's perfectly fine in comparison to justifications and calls for tolerance.

To his credit, he left the right wing party as soon as they were in power and proved not to be that civic and decent. In later years I even got him to vote green party, which nowadays I am sorry for :)

But in short - to me there are no good Nazis, there can't be, and that's what makes Trump so spooky sometimes. Whoever has a swastika at home and praises Hitler isn't a good person, he's in favour of ethnic cleansing, of mass-murdering, of the Holocaust, you cannot be a Nazi without that. That is important and that's why I took the liberty of writing that much about it here.

(12-29-2017, 05:04 AM)Dill Wrote: Still, you ought to remind your father that, to whatever depths  your generation has sunk, you, at least, are hardly ungebildet. Is his English as good as yours?

Nah, my father is way superior and there's no doubt about that. English, I don't know, he didn't need to learn it. When he went to Italy, he learned Italian and soon could talk to the locals, same in Greece or Turkey and probably many other places. That was impressive. Also he has an incredible general knowledge of just about everything. I never had nearly as much desire for education, but he solely blamed my mother for that so I was good :)

[Bengalzona]

(12-29-2017, 05:19 AM)with the Dill Wrote: Something about this thread has gotten me free-associating about Europe.  While reading this I remembered when we first drove into Italy from Lugano.  Every few miles there was a traffic jam on the Autostrada because of accidents.  My first two weeks there I saw more accidents than I had seen in my entire life.  Subito!   This was true of back roads too. And I saw such scary near misses. When I remarked on this people just shrugged. Nothing you could do. That's just the way life is.  Like Americans with gun violence.  Germans drive fast, but they are careful. I remember driving around Paris and noticing most every car had dents and scrapes--but I never saw an accident. I drove to France at least twice a year and never saw an accident on a French highway.

That reminds me of the route between Sorrento and Positano. It is one of those harrowing narrow twisting two-lane roads with the sea on one side and cliffs on the other. The view is incredible! The drivers are not. The road is jammed with tour buses on one hand and wealthy locals in Ferraris and Lambourghinis on the other. We took the bus. I never heard someone say "Stupido!" as often as that driver did!

[Bengalzona]

(12-29-2017, 07:08 AM)hollodero Wrote: Nah, my father is way superior and there's no doubt about that. English, I don't know, he didn't need to learn it. When he went to Italy, he learned Italian and soon could talk to the locals, same in Greece or Turkey and probably many other places. That was impressive. Also he has an incredible general knowledge of just about everything. I never had nearly as much desire for education, but he solely blamed my mother for that so I was good :)

That's my wife. She's fluent in six languages and can carry on conversations in three others.

Me? Not so much.