NY Fraud cost will cost Trump over $350 miillion

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-22-2024, 09:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: In what way were they unable to mount an active defense? Also, the judge stated in his ruling the reason why it didn't matter what the lender said; NY law does not require a victim for this particular crime, only an intent to defraud. It should be noted, though, that the fraud occurred with regard to multiple lenders and also governments, another reason it didn't really matter what the lender said.

If you don't have a chance to even go to trial then no, you were not able to mount an active defense.  I don't know if a jury trial is an option for this type of case, or trump just neglected to ask for one, but you know my opinion on when you should ask for one.  The whole thing just comes off as odd to me.  When was the last time such a prominent figure was taken to court and it went so quickly and smoothly for the prosecution.  Was the NY case just that solid?  If that's the case then why do you have other people in that business sounding alarm bells?  Is Trump a special case?  If so then you're kind of providing his supporters with ammo.

I've seen rock solid cases against far lesser celebrities completely fall apart.  This just niggles at me.                                        

[Belsnickel]

(02-23-2024, 01:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If you don't have a chance to even go to trial then no, you were not able to mount an active defense.  I don't know if a jury trial is an option for this type of case, or trump just neglected to ask for one, but you know my opinion on when you should ask for one.  The whole thing just comes off as odd to me.  When was the last time such a prominent figure was taken to court and it went so quickly and smoothly for the prosecution.  Was the NY case just that solid?  If that's the case then why do you have other people in that business sounding alarm bells?  Is Trump a special case?  If so then you're kind of providing his supporters with ammo.

I've seen rock solid cases against far lesser celebrities completely fall apart.  This just niggles at me.                                        

There were, I think, seven causes of action on the indictment against Trump. Only the first had a summary judgement for it and the findings of fact regarding that were demonstrably clear (such as using square footage or floor counts that were just objectively wrong in documents). There was an 11-week trial on the remaining six causes of action, during which Trump's legal team was...less than good. They called witnesses who gave inconsistent statements on the stand (Ivanka, for example, magically remembered things during cross that she had forgotten during direct). The only expert witness they called that really corroborated their case was contradicted in some of his statements by those with first-hand knowledge, and also he was being called as an expert witness even though he was a close friend of Trump's and was in a position to gain financially depending on the outcome of the case. The accounting professor they called as an expert witness lost a lot of credibility by calling a $200 million overestimation "immaterial" and trying to justify numerous misstatements while calling the financial statements in line with GAAP.

So, there was a trial and Trump's defense team just blew it, hard. Even with that, they still only received a temporary bar from doing business in New York despite showing no remorse for the fraudulent activity and continuing to engage in it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-23-2024, 02:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: There were, I think, seven causes of action on the indictment against Trump. Only the first had a summary judgement for it and the findings of fact regarding that were demonstrably clear (such as using square footage or floor counts that were just objectively wrong in documents). There was an 11-week trial on the remaining six causes of action, during which Trump's legal team was...less than good. They called witnesses who gave inconsistent statements on the stand (Ivanka, for example, magically remembered things during cross that she had forgotten during direct). The only expert witness they called that really corroborated their case was contradicted in some of his statements by those with first-hand knowledge, and also he was being called as an expert witness even though he was a close friend of Trump's and was in a position to gain financially depending on the outcome of the case. The accounting professor they called as an expert witness lost a lot of credibility by calling a $200 million overestimation "immaterial" and trying to justify numerous misstatements while calling the financial statements in line with GAAP.

So, there was a trial and Trump's defense team just blew it, hard. Even with that, they still only received a temporary bar from doing business in New York despite showing no remorse for the fraudulent activity and continuing to engage in it.

I can't say this surprises me.  I guess at the end of the day what nags at me is this seems like the type of thing that literally goes on all the time and is never prosecuted, but this was a great chance to get Trump with it.  Maybe in this instance I'm being the more cynical one here, but it really sticks in my head as such.  

[Belsnickel]

(02-23-2024, 02:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I can't say this surprises me.  I guess at the end of the day what nags at me is this seems like the type of thing that literally goes on all the time and is never prosecuted, but this was a great chance to get Trump with it.  Maybe in this instance I'm being the more cynical one here, but it really sticks in my head as such.  

While I would agree with you on this point, and it is something that the defense brought up, I am of the same mind as the judge on this point. The fact that it does go on all the time is reason for us to enforce the law and not the ignore it. The impact it has on the market is not insignificant and we should be focusing on bringing more of these cases to trial, not ignoring them. Maybe this is why Trump didn't actually receive a fine for this.

[*Nately120*]

(02-23-2024, 02:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I can't say this surprises me.  I guess at the end of the day what nags at me is this seems like the type of thing that literally goes on all the time and is never prosecuted, but this was a great chance to get Trump with it.  Maybe in this instance I'm being the more cynical one here, but it really sticks in my head as such.  

This isn't the first time the Trump Org has been held accountable for shady this and that's, some of which go back to before he was even considered a candidate for president much less the absolute demigod of the GOP.  The Trump University scam being blown up was in 2013 I think for example. 

[*pally*]

(02-23-2024, 02:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I can't say this surprises me.  I guess at the end of the day what nags at me is this seems like the type of thing that literally goes on all the time and is never prosecuted, but this was a great chance to get Trump with it.  Maybe in this instance I'm being the more cynical one here, but it really sticks in my head as such.  

Never piss off the guy who buried your bodies.  It can come back to bite you like Michal Cohen did with Trump

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-23-2024, 02:49 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I would agree with you on this point, and it is something that the defense brought up, I am of the same mind as the judge on this point. The fact that it does go on all the time is reason for us to enforce the law and not the ignore it. The impact it has on the market is not insignificant and we should be focusing on bringing more of these cases to trial, not ignoring them. Maybe this is why Trump didn't actually receive a fine for this.

What do you want to bet James doesn't have a slew of such cases in the future?  I'd say the odds on none are probably the best bet.

(02-23-2024, 03:07 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This isn't the first time the Trump Org has been held accountable for shady this and that's, some of which go back to before he was even considered a candidate for president much less the absolute demigod of the GOP.  The Trump University scam being blown up was in 2013 I think for example. 

You'll get no argument from me that he's a shady businessman, but I think they're all shady to varying degrees.  It's very easy to perceive this as a personal thing against trump because it's very easy to perceive this as something that goes on all the time.  He upset the apple cart and now he's paying the price.  I see it, you see it, Bel sees it.  Imagine how this is viewed by people with a rather less nuanced view of the world?

[*Nately120*]

(02-23-2024, 04:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: What do you want to bet James doesn't have a slew of such cases in the future?  I'd say the odds on none are probably the best bet.

I mean, it's really hard to pull stuff like this off and Trump is admittedly not the sort of under the radar white collar criminal our society loves to ignore.  I see it like this, Trump is applying for a job that requires the highest security access, so like anyone he should have clean hands or not apply if he doesn't want it brought up.  My ho-hum job required security clearances and I've had friends and acquaintances ask me about working there and I'd say if you're ok with people delving into your past go ahead.  If you have past felonies, or even misdemeanors, if you haven't paid federal taxes within the past 7 years, or EVER had a woman file a restraining order against you you're going to want to just apply for a job that doesn't bring that stuff up.

If you apply for a low-tier government job and you are 120 days late on a student loan payment you get flagged...it ain't over, but you get flagged and interviewed. The fact that a guy who has half a billion in judgments against him and has family and economic ties to foreign nations is getting "singled out" while applying to be the head of our government just doesn't hold water for me. Seems fair enough, the guy could have just kept on being his abhorrent self but he chose to enter this realm.  If you have shady stuff in your past you don't want people to go over, go do something else.

And yes, this mindset also played into why I thought Gary Johnson was the obvious choice in 2016.

(02-23-2024, 04:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You'll get no argument from me that he's a shady businessman, but I think they're all shady to varying degrees.  It's very easy to perceive this as a personal thing against trump because it's very easy to perceive this as something that goes on all the time.  He upset the apple cart and now he's paying the price.  I see it, you see it, Bel sees it.  Imagine how this is viewed by people with a rather less nuanced view of the world?

Life isn't fair and the law can't stop everyone.  I'm sure someone has asked you why you single them out for doing the wrong thing when millions of murderers are blah blah blah.  It's like, dude, you did the wrong thing just shut up and take the ticket.

[GMDino]

https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/02/20/donald-trump-owes-87k-daily-interest-on-historic-fraud-penalties/

Quote:Donald Trump owes $87K daily interest on historic fraud penalties


Republican presidential candidate, former U.S. President Donald Trump attends a pre-trial hearing at Manhattan Criminal Court on February 15, 2024 in New York City. (Pool/Getty Images)
By MOLLY CRANE-NEWMAN | mcranenewman@nydailynews.com | New York Daily News
PUBLISHED: February 20, 2024 at 6:58 p.m. | UPDATED: February 20, 2024 at 9:51 p.m.

When most New Yorkers wake up, they might splurge by spending a few bucks on coffee and a bagel.

Every morning Donald Trump wakes up, he now owes another $87,500 in interest on the massive legal penalties he received last week.
The pain is set to continue until he pays off the entirety of the nearly half a billion dollars in fines and interest in his Manhattan civil fraud case.


The devastating judgment handed down by Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron on Friday against the former president and his longtime Trump Organization executives will increase by 9% annually until resolved.



That comes to $87,500 per day, according to the state attorney general’s office — more than most New Yorkers make in a year. On an annual basis, the interest alone puts a $32 million dent in Trump’s pocket, according to calculations by The Associated Press.

Engoron’s blistering ruling found the Republican front-runner for president, his former finance chief, Allen Weisselberg, company controller Jeff McConney, and sons, Eric and Don Jr., liable for six claims alleging they intentionally committed fraud by routinely lying about how much he was worth — often by billions of dollars — in deals with financial institutions. Engoron found Trump and his crew liable on the top fraud claim before the monthslong trial even started.

[img=1041x0]https://i0.wp.com/www.nydailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/GettyImages-1917689761.jpg?fit=620%2C9999px&ssl=1[/img]Judge Arthur Engoron on Jan. 11. (Photo by SHANNON STAPLETON/POOL/AFP via Getty Images)
Trump is on the hook for the overwhelming bulk of the roughly $364 million in preinterest penalties laid out in Engoron’s ruling, which also barred him from heading a New York business for three years, among other restrictions.


Specifically, the judge’s decision ordered Trump and the entities he owns and controls to pay back a whopping $168,040,168. That represents the interest he saved from lying about his net worth in loans involving his Doral golf resort in Florida, the Old Post Office hotel in Washington, D.C., his Wall Street skyscraper and his Chicago hotel. The clock on the interest owed began the day the AG started investigating Trump, March 2, 2019, Engoron noted.

The judge added to Trump’s tally the $126,828,600 in profits that he made from the May 2022 sale of the Old Post Office, as the contract was secured years before with bogus valuations of his worth. Eric and Don Jr. each owe at least $4 million from their cut. The judge outlined that the interest began accruing on those fines when the deal was finalized.


Representations Trump made about his bank balance when he threw his hat in the ring more than a decade ago to win a licensing agreement for his Bronx golf course at Ferry Point Park — and while maintaining it for years — led Engoron to decide Trump should have to pay back the $60 million he pocketed from its sale in June 2023, when the interest for that fine began accruing.
[img=1041x0]https://i0.wp.com/www.nydailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/AP23109565110352.jpg?fit=620%2C9999px&ssl=1[/img]Donald Trump, Allen Weisselberg and Donald Trump, Jr.  on Jan. 11, 2017. (AP Photo/Evan Vucci, File)
Trump, who has vowed to appeal, can’t stop the clock. He has until around mid-March to post the total amount in an account controlled by the court or secure a bond.


The penalties have enraged Trump, who’s cited his legal woes to rally his diehard supporters.


“This shocking and corrupt Interference in the Free Markets for political gain places every New York business transaction at risk,” the former president stated Friday on his Truth Social platform in reaction to the penalties. “We must make sure Corrupt Politicians and Judges cannot continue to abuse the power of their office, and violate the public trust.”


When added to the outstanding $88.3 million he owes writer E. Jean Carroll, whom he was found liable for sexually abusing and defaming last year, Trump is barreling toward a billion-dollar debt.


When the AG’s office deposed him in April 2023, Trump claimed he had about $400 million cash in his company accounts. Forbes reported he was worth around $2.6 billion last September when including his assets.



Gregory Germain, director of Syracuse University’s Bankruptcy Clinic, said there are three ways Trump could respond.


“If he’s able to post, if he’s able to come up with the cash that he needs to get a full bond, he’ll probably just do that,” he told the Daily News. “If he isn’t … he’d probably ask the appellate court to lower the amount of the bonding requirement. And if they refused and he can’t raise the money, then he’s in real trouble because the judgment creditors can enforce their judgments against his assets.”


If Trump can’t come up with the cash, Germain said Trump could be forced to follow in the footsteps of Rudy Giuliani, who filed for bankruptcy protection in December.


On top of his civil woes, the 77-year-old Trump has pleaded not guilty to 91 felonies in four state and federal cases, which combined carry more than 600 years in prison.

[BigPapaKain]

Wild that this billionaire still requires his grossly underpaid and economically suffering (damn Democrats, amiright?) voterbase paying into a Go Fund Me to pay for it.

[GMDino]

(02-24-2024, 12:59 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Wild that this billionaire still requires his grossly underpaid and economically suffering (damn Democrats, amiright?) voterbase paying into a Go Fund Me to pay for it.

[*Nately120*]

(02-24-2024, 12:59 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Wild that this billionaire still requires his grossly underpaid and economically suffering (damn Democrats, amiright?) voterbase paying into a Go Fund Me to pay for it.

What's so hard to believe about this?  Trump united the "give money to the rich and it'll pay off in the long run" wing of the GOP with the retirees who blow their pensions on lottery tickets and trips to the casino because "it might pay off and it'll be exciting."

As I've said before, in our society we don't demonize handouts, we demonize NEEDING a handout.  Add in that Trump has also tapped into the divine right of rule aspects of the human brain that Americans supposedly ditched when we removed tumor that was the British monarchy from us, and you've got a real sticky wicket. 

[Arturo Bandini]

Sounds like he struggles to pay once again.

Billionnaire in name only.

[*pally*]

Trump's lawyer informed the court today that he cannot post the bond for this fine. No insurance company will indemnify him.

He now has 2 choices....put up cash or le the state start collecting

[XenoMorph]

Businesses Beware pull out of NY before they come for you too for Check notes...

Paying back the loan the bank gave you with interest...

[Belsnickel]

(03-18-2024, 01:24 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Businesses Beware pull out of NY before they come for you too for Check notes...

Paying back the loan the bank gave you with interest...

I mean, I am no fan to big businesses, especially banks, but it is interesting to see folks be unhappy with someone being held accountable for fraudulent activity that cost businesses millions of dollars because they received more favorable terms than they should have. If we provided fraudulent paperwork to a bank for a mortgage, even if we were paying it back, you best believe we'd be facing legal action as a result of it if they found out.

[XenoMorph]

(03-18-2024, 01:43 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I mean, I am no fan to big businesses, especially banks, but it is interesting to see folks be unhappy with someone being held accountable for fraudulent activity that cost businesses millions of dollars because they received more favorable terms than they should have. If we provided fraudulent paperwork to a bank for a mortgage, even if we were paying it back, you best believe we'd be facing legal action as a result of it if they found out.

If the bank approved the loan.. And he paid it back.....   whos the victim?

Where si the fraud?

[Belsnickel]

(03-18-2024, 01:44 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: If the bank approved the loan.. And he paid it back.....   whos the victim?

Where si the fraud?

If you misrepresent your financial position on documents provided to obtain a loan, whether or not you paid it back, it is fraud.

If the fraud results in you receiving better terms than you would have received with the accurate information, then the bank lost out on potential revenue. They are victimized in that instance.

[*Nately120*]

(03-18-2024, 01:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If you misrepresent your financial position on documents provided to obtain a loan, whether or not you paid it back, it is fraud.

If the fraud results in you receiving better terms than you would have received with the accurate information, then the bank lost out on potential revenue. They are victimized in that instance.

Also, if I know how banks work when they lose money they get bailed out and low-rung taxpayers foot the bill.  Then again, if you are one of those people who just sends Trump money, I guess this is essentially business as usual.

[*pally*]

The taxpayers of New York and the state of New York were also victims as Trump undervalued his properties for tax purposes.

It all boils down to him committing fraud. Just like he did with Trump University. This is also the same sort of games he played with the casinos his poor management bankrupted