Nearly 30 dead as multiple mass shootings hit across the US

[*Nately120*]

(08-05-2019, 11:40 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: His criticism of video games in the wake of shootings goes back years. When the shooter parrots your talking points, I guess you have to blame anything. 

That's what I think of.  Maybe Trump and Joe Liberman can sit down together and unite the political extremes over this absurd scapegoat.

[CKwi88]

And the collective response:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hope my number doesn't come up the next time one of these happens.

[BmorePat87]

I didn’t get video, but here’s audio of the question and Beto O’Rourke’s answer. This came after an emotional vigil in El Paso, as O’Rourke circled behind a building looking for his wife. pic.twitter.com/VBk8xoE1lz

— Eric Bradner (@ericbradner) August 5, 2019

Beto O’Rourke on his way to his car was asked if there’s anything Trump can do now to make this better.

“What do you think? You know the shit he’s been saying. He’s been calling Mexican immigrants rapists and criminals. I don’t know, like, members of the press, what the ****?” pic.twitter.com/zjLYf4mzBr

— Eric Bradner (@ericbradner) August 5, 2019

'What the f***?' - Former Texas congressman Beto O'Rourke says President Trump's language against minorities promotes racial division and violence.

Two mass shootings left 29 people dead this weekend in the US.

For more on the story: https://t.co/OmcmrDIRKm pic.twitter.com/ULEcYi8x1a

— Sky News (@SkyNews) August 5, 2019

[jj22]

Rough weekend for many. Unfortunately nothing will change.

Glad people are calling Trump out for his mental health talk after he ended Obama's gun background checks for mental health.

His supporters will defend the decision, but it's a big slap in the face to those victims to hear him preach on it now.

[*Nately120*]

(08-05-2019, 11:49 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: And the collective response:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hope my number doesn't come up the next time one of these happens.

Hopefully my number doesn't come up, but if it does I've already planned out an absurd hero delusion where I save the day and survive.

[CJD]

(08-05-2019, 09:41 AM)Au165 Wrote: I have thought a lot about this, and I believe I said it after Vegas, but the 2nd Amendment doesn't protect the capacity of the weapons or their rate of fire. Stopping actual shootings is a very complex problem that I'm not sure we can actually prevent at this point. What we can do is minimize damage. In Dayton he shot 36 people in 30 seconds...that shouldn't happen, that can't happen. That kind of response time by police is almost unheard of and the shooter still hit 36 people and killing 9. We ca't allow people access to firearms that can deal that much damage that quickly.

I am not saying round up all the guns, that isn't legal or feasible. It is important to protect people's rights to self protection, hunting, etc., which is why I believe there should be a ban placed on all magazine capable fire arms. Only firearms that hold 8 rounds or less and use a pump/revolver/ bolt action would be legal. This allows people to still do all the things needed under the second amendment, but in these events limits the amount of damage that can be dealt out. I understand something like this would cause outrage among gun enthusiasts, but their hobby is not worth people's lives.

The U.S. Government would buy back all banned firearms over a two year period after which the possession of such firearms would become illegal. The penalty for possessing a banned firearm would be a felony with 10 years in prison. Don't tell me bad guys won't follow the rules, almost all fire arms used in these events are legally bought not some back alley filed down serial number gun. Laws in general aren't there for the ones who wish to follow them, but rather to punish those who choose not to.

If we only made laws people followed there would be no laws. It's time to stop making excuses for why we can't do anything and start doing something.

This is all a reasonable response and it is a good idea for handling these issues that will likely not gain traction due to the gun enthusiasts and the NRA controlling a lot of power in Washington.

[Vas Deferens]

(08-05-2019, 11:53 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Hopefully my number doesn't come up, but if it does I've already planned out an absurd hero delusion where I save the day and survive.

the only thing that stops a criminal with a gun is a good citizen with a hero delusion...  depending on the response and engagement time of the authorities...  

[*Nately120*]

(08-05-2019, 12:03 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: the only thing that stops a criminal with a gun is a good citizen with a hero delusion...  depending on the response and engagement time of the authorities...  

Hey, that's our culture.  How many people watch a movie where the hero guns down an army and say "I actually identify most with that guy who got killed in the first twelve seconds."

[CJD]

(08-05-2019, 11:18 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Two shooters, one fueled by right win ideology the other by left. The El Paso shooter claimed to be inspired by the Christchurch shooter's manifesto.  The thing about that is the expressed purpose of using firearms in the act were so the left would clamp down with tighter gun laws and polarize the country even more, with the expressed purpose of starting a civil war.  In New Zealand at least, the government was only too happy to comply with the killer's desires.


I am interested, for those who propose them, what exact gun control measures do you propose and would they have stopped these events?

What was the Dayton shooter's reasoning that aligned with the left's politics? It seemed like his was much more personal than politically driven (he killed his sister, after all). Any other motivation, to my knowledge, hasn't been uncovered. His social media posts are anti-trump and socialist, but that doesn't mean that the shooting was fueled by his politics. Did something come out since this morning that would link his politics to his motives?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-05-2019, 11:33 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Knowing your stance and penchant for informed, civil debate on the issue, I was actually going to engage you in a similar question SSF.  "what would it take for you to agree to gun control legislation"  But the parameters or specific legislation need to be set for that question to be answered.

I detect a hint of sarcasm, but I am capable of being as rational on this subject as the person I am discussing the subject with.

Quote:To start with your question - I would want stricter background checks, where someone who has shown a proclivity towards violence would be kept from purchasing guns; an end to the swap meet loophole; a universal database tracking gun owners and their guns; and a much much more intensive background checks on weapons capable of inflicting harm at mass shooting levels.  (As I have stated in the past I have a friend who has a litany of very powerful guns, but goes through extra scrutiny at the federal level to acquire them, sometimes taking acquisition a year or more. I don't think that is unreasonable and will help keep these firearms out of the hands of the wrong people.)  

I have zero issue with background checks, never have.  The problem with your suggestion is how to do gather the information needed to implement your more thorough check?  Unless a person has had formal contact with law enforcement or mental health professionals there's no way, outside of truly invasive spying, to accrue this information.  I have to say, there is no swap meet of gun show "loophole".  This is a made up talking point.  What this really is a a private party transfer, i.e. a private citizen selling a gun to another private citizen.  This can take place anywhere.  If you buy a firearm at a gunshow from a FFL you still fill out all the relevant paperwork.  Lastly, a year?  That's insane.

Quote:As to whether this would have stopped these occurances.  I would say they probably would have were they inacted 10+ years ago when this conversation was taking place at that time.  Both of these individuals have made comments (El Paso) or have been watched by the police (Dayton) which could have kept these firearms out of their hands.  Regardless of if it would stem these specific events, I am sure these reasonable laws would save some lives in the future.  That is hard to deny imho.

As to the El Paso shooter, where were his comments made and how could such comments come to the attention of authorities?  What you're advocating may (would?) result in an invasion of privacy on par with the PRC.  How did the Ohio shooter come to the attention of authorities?

Quote:Quick question, what is the source of this comment?  Genuine.  

I admittedly haven't read much on either shooting, I had company in from out of town.  One source made mention that the Ohio shooter was a huge Warren supporter with commensurate political leanings posted on his social media.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-05-2019, 12:06 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: What was the Dayton shooter's reasoning that aligned with the left's politics? It seemed like his was much more personal than politically driven (he killed his sister, after all). Any other motivation, to my knowledge, hasn't been uncovered. His social media posts are anti-trump and socialist, but that doesn't mean that the shooting was fueled by his politics. Did something come out since this morning that would link his politics to his motives?

Just applying the standard set of judgments when assigning blame for these types of shootings.  Maybe you're right and I shouldn't be buying into that.

[*Nately120*]

(08-05-2019, 12:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Just applying the standard set of judgments when assigning blame for these types of shootings.  Maybe you're right and I shouldn't be buying into that.

Isn't most violence committed by males, usually of the uneducated variety?  Is that too general of a group to blame?  

[jj22]

I don't think Dayton was political related. From everything I hear outside of conservative media it was personal. Thee right just is looking to blame it on the left because of the Texas shooter.

There was no manifesto for the Dayton shooter unlike the Texas one.

I instantly knew the race of the shooter by the definition of the crime (terrorist act vs loan wolf) and got my answer. This is unfortunate.

[CJD]

(08-05-2019, 12:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Just applying the standard set of judgments when assigning blame for these types of shootings.  Maybe you're right and I shouldn't be buying into that.

I don't think it's impossible that his politics played a role. It's just, as far as I know, been undetermined. 

The El Paso shooter definitely seems to have been motivated by politics, based on the evidence collected, but it doesn't mean that every shooter's motives are defined by their political beliefs.

I was just making sure there wasn't new evidence in the Dayton shooting that I hadn't heard of yet that would make this another political shooting.

[CJD]

(08-05-2019, 12:18 PM)jj22 Wrote: I don't think Dayton was political related. From everything I hear outside of conservative media it was personal. Thee right just is looking to blame it on the left because of the Texas shooter.

There was no manifesto for the Dayton shooter unlike the Texas one.

What is the conservative media saying that would indicate it isn't personal?

[GMDino]

Dayton shooter info.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local/new-details-dayton-shooter-obsessed-with-killing-bellbrook-classmates-say/uCuyd2JeZzo70NDgArsqOI/

He may or may not have been on the police radar.  They won't say yet.

If he was, or at least if they were told and they did nothing, it was because of his actions about loving the thought of killing more than any political bias, according to the article.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-05-2019, 12:15 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Isn't most violence committed by males, usually of the uneducated variety?  Is that too general of a group to blame?  

If you really want to have a charged conversation then get into the ethnicity of the perpetrators of violent crime.  But, definitely, the vast majority of violent crime is committed by men.

[Vas Deferens]

(08-05-2019, 12:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I detect a hint of sarcasm, but I am capable of being as rational on this subject as the person I am discussing the subject with.

Absolutely not.  I value your opinion on these matters just as I did roto in the past.  

Quote:I have zero issue with background checks, never have.  The problem with your suggestion is how to do gather the information needed to implement your more thorough check?  Unless a person has had formal contact with law enforcement or mental health professionals there's no way, outside of truly invasive spying, to accrue this information.  I have to say, there is no swap meet of gun show "loophole".  This is a made up talking point.  What this really is a a private party transfer, i.e. a private citizen selling a gun to another private citizen.  This can take place anywhere.  If you buy a firearm at a gunshow from a FFL you still fill out all the relevant paperwork. 

My nomenclature is sub-optimal, I will admit.  But yes, I believe private party sales need to be tracked as well, especially in the case of higher power weapons.  

Quote: Lastly, a year?  That's insane.

He's bought some higher-end milspec things that have involved additional layers of background check.  I'm not sure the name of the process, but its real and he doesn't have any problem with it because...  well he's a model citizen who just like to shoot these things and has the vast amounts of disposable income to procur them.  I know there is an element of 'if the shit hits the fan' ideology in his outlook, but I'm certain its 100% self preservation, which I completely understand given the world we live in.

Quote:As to the El Paso shooter, where were his comments made and how could such comments come to the attention of authorities?  What you're advocating may (would?) result in an invasion of privacy on par with the PRC.  How did the Ohio shooter come to the attention of authorities?

Agree with the invasion of privacy to some extent.  But if you want something that high power, maybe elements of you privacy need to be forfeited?  I'm not all to sure on that front to be honest.
Ohio shooter was suspended from HS for having a 'hit list' and was on the police'd radar.  Which is why I beleive they were so quick to state "there is nothing in his past that would KEEP him from procuring this weapon"  (sic)

Quote:I admittedly haven't read much on either shooting, I had company in from out of town.  One source made mention that the Ohio shooter was a huge Warren supporter with commensurate political leanings posted on his social media.

Not sure how Warren's ideological rhetoric would be forwarded by an attack like this...  

[jj22]

(08-05-2019, 12:20 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: What is the conservative media saying that would indicate it isn't personal?

Just that he was a socialist and anti Trump.

They even "wondered" which was enough to blur the lines and get their point across if he was Antifa...

They never mentioned the Texas shooter manifesto.

[GMDino]

(08-05-2019, 12:19 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't think it's impossible that his politics played a role. It's just, as far as I know, been undetermined. 

The El Paso shooter definitely seems to have been motivated by politics, based on the evidence collected, but it doesn't mean that every shooter's motives are defined by their political beliefs.

I was just making sure there wasn't new evidence in the Dayton shooting that I hadn't heard of yet that would make this another political shooting.

El Paso shooter.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/04/el-paso-wal-mart-shooting-patrick-crusius-probed-hate-crime/1914874001/

Drudge posted he manifesto (I guess others did too) but I have not read it.

I did see a photo of the word "trump" spelled out with guns that is allegedly from the shooters social media but I did not try to confirm that either.

I read this morning that someone created a mylife page and listed him as a democrat but that the initial speculation was that was created after the shooting.

The manifesto is the only confirmable part so far to my knowledge.