10-01-2017, 09:38 PM
(09-30-2017, 03:45 AM)Dill Wrote: You are generalizing Trump's insults to the point where they have no content, then asking what's the big deal?
If someone calls the men AND women around him "idiots" in equal proportion, then yes probably no one would call that sexism, just personal abuse.
But to reiterate a point made above, it would be quite another thing if a white man habitually calls a black coworker the N word and complain his kind are lazy and shiftless, and make jokes about his hair and facial features. Would anyone argue that such behavior is not racist because he insults women and others too?
Insulting women does make you a misogynist if the insults are directed at women because they are women, and define them as inferior beings whose entire value rests upon their ability to please men by their looks, their genitals, or ability to cook and keep a home or otherwise serve. That's how misogyny is distinguished from mere sexism--by the intent to denigrate.
The business of Trump grabbing women really has two parts. 1) to say a man "hates" women doesn't necessarily mean that he wants to kill them or something. Hatred can be expressed in a spectrum of behaviors, including violence and objectification--even of one's own daughter, if he speculates how large and wonderful his baby girl's breasts will be when she grows up (on NATIONAL TV. Jeezus!) . The misogynist not only thinks of them as less than men, but finds them contemptible, deserving of abuse and violation. When his wife gets old he dumps her for a younger, more pleasing and compliant toy. 2) Trump wasn't just "talking"; by his own testimony, he regularly grabbed women without their consent, like they were meat, used his celebrity to violate them personally. Even if we give Trump "the benefit of the doubt" by not believing him, we still have his celebration of imaginary denigration in speech.
To put one and two together, you "grab women" and brag to other men about it because you have contempt for them as persons with rights. You don't escape the charge of misogyny just because you regularly heap contempt on others as well--like imitating a person with a handicap.
PS People do care about the way Trump attacked Jeb Bush, by the way.
(09-30-2017, 04:54 AM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah no offense, but there's a bit much feeling in it to be an airtight argument. You shouldn't be outraged because you feel the term means something
specific which it actually doesn't mean to many other people. I really don't want to get into the "is the term correct"-debate. If it isn't, it doesn't miss by much.
The problem with Trump is not people calling him argueably not pinpoint accurate names, it's really all the stuff Trump did and said that led to this. Why you chose to change perspective away from that is something I can not quite understand. This Michelle thing, if problematic at all (I don't think so, but whatever), isn't nearly as hefty as what your president did in his past and does in his present. The whole "Michelle shames voters"-outrage is an intellectual construct, for a predesired outcome. Trumps whole "facelift fatugly bleeding" statements [see the long lists posted] is repeated reality. How can your perspective on that be so different?
I assume political leaning because a) I have no other explanation and b) I'm always right on that one :) I'd guess you vote conservative, more importantly not democratic, and I don't mean anything bad by it. I just don't get the perspectives. If I were to sort the most outrageous, divisive or inappropriate comments in your political sphere, this Michelle one, no matter how you feel the term misogyny is percieved, couldn't possibly make the top 500. Not with this competition from POTUS account.
Nah, you didn't get what I was getting at, which probably was my fault. I don't think Trump hates women, I think he disdains them. As someone could disdain Mexicans (saying "I don't hate them, they are just inferior people".) Which would still make him a racist, these words as stated. Even without hate.
And in the same sense, Trump is a misogynic even though maybe not actually hating women. That's not a stretch in my books.
His attacks on women are often shaming their looks, there also seems to be blood involved. That's the technicality, that his attacks are often women-specific. The broader picture really is, him saying bad things about other people doesn't minimize the bad things he said about women. It just makes him an even bigger as... ok. But that's really how I see it, and I think seeing it differently is quite an absurd way to look at things.
This whole "don't treat Trump unfairly" movement is so hard to grasp for me - why conservatives are in it, I mean. This can't be fun. I say it once again, when Trump is called a name like misogynic, he brought that on himself. it's really on him first and foremost.
Btw. I feel you're quite overly sensitive over an alleged misuse of the word "misogynic". :) I have to say...
Sorry Dill/Hollo, but I didn't find a point here I could really agree with.
For starters I am not generalizing Trumps comments to the point that they have no content. Rather, I am asking you to show me how the content of his insults absolutely show that he is a misogynist. It seems you attempted to do just that in the following points you made in your post, but I have to say I don't follow the logic you've presented here.
Before I continue with this discussion I would like to make one important point here, and this is addressed to you as well hollodero. Just because I don't believe Trump is a misogynist does not mean I think he is a good guy, as you (Dill) seemed to make that comment in your follow up post to hollodero as an indirect reference to me. In addition to that, just because I am defending Trump does not mean I am a conservative, nor does it mean that I am trying to preserve some type of conservative ideology to defend against liberals at all costs. I feel these accusations/assumptions are missing the point and lessening the conversation about what this is really about. Again, I'm not "outraged" by what Michelle Obama said, I just disagreed with her just like I disagree with the both of you.
To be clear here, this isn't just about Trump. This is more so a broader argument about what a misogynist really is and whether Trump is a misogynist. To clarify, I am not disagreeing just to defend Trump. I am disagreeing because I don't agree with either of your psychological evaluations that Trump is a misogynist because of his insults towards women.
You both seem to make the same point that "Trump is a misogynist because he insults women by attacking their femininity". But the question here is whether Trump is attacking their femininity because he doesn't respect women, or because he has a lack of respect for anyone who in general is not himself.
In other words, I am making the case that Trump isn't a misogynist but instead comes off more as a narcissist. That’s certainly not me putting Trump in a good light. Now obviously Trump can be both a narcissist and a misogynist, but I don't believe he is both (and I’m not definitively saying he’s a narcissist either, but he comes off more like one to me than a misogynist). While I believe you both have reasonable viewpoints to say he is misogynist, I don't find them to be super persuasive. Again, if you look at how Trump operates as POTUS today he has made it quite clear that he is someone who does not like to be humiliated or questioned by anyone whether it be male or female.
Has it suddenly been forgotten how he has basically demanded loyalty from everyone around him (not just women) and whoever doesn’t show that loyalty he attacks and attempts to humiliate or shame (again, not just women).
Throughout Trump’s feud with Comey he repeatedly called him a liar, said he was an illegal leaker of classified information, questioned his loyalty, and called him a coward.
Now, I know you both have said evidence of Trump being a misogynist is his attacks on women’s looks but to be honest I’m really puzzled as to why you both find that a conclusive argument for Trump being a misogynist. A lot of times when men insult the femininity of a woman by calling them ugly, fat, etc…. they do it because they know it is one of the best ways to insult them(I’m not using best as in “good” here). Insulting a particular woman because you don’t like her and insulting a woman because she is a woman are two different things. One defines a misogynist while the other doesn’t.
Basically what I’m saying is I don’t know any man that regularly attacks the looks of another man as a way to be insulting towards that man. To be clearer, I don’t know any man that regularly insults other men by calling them ugly, talking about their facelifts etc… because that’s not how men normally attack each other’s masculinity as a way to be insulting towards one another. They do it in other ways in which Trump has actually done multiple times to other men.
Examples of Trump attacking the masculinity/character of men:
Marco Rubio
Trump on more than one occasion has repeatedly called Rubio “Little Marco” a “Lightweight”, “Mr. Meltdown”, “Light weight choker” said he “Looks like a little boy on stage” called him a “Little puppet”.
Jeb Bush
Trump said he was a guy with “low energy” and that he has “no honor” and that he “just got contact lenses and got rid of the glasses because he wants to look cool”, asked how can Jeb Bush beat Hillary “if he can't beat anyone else on the #GOPDebate stage with $150M?” called him “Desperate, sad, weak, and a lightweight”, said he “gave up and enlisted Mommy and his brother to help him”, said he, “is by far the weakest of the lot.” And that he, “had to bring in mommy to take a slap at me.” Said that he is a “Stiff, a low energy guy, weak and ineffective” that he is “too soft-we need tougher & sharper”.
Ted Cruz
Called Ted Cruz “weak”, said “Ted Cruz can't win with the voters so he has to sell himself to the bosses” said multiple times that Ted Cruz is “A nasty guy” (which is funny cause it’s the same thing he said about Hillary but people only lost their minds over one of the candidates being called nasty. Wonder which one that was?). Said Cruz’s “lies are almost as bad as Jeb's. These politicians will do anything to stay at the trough!”, said that, “Cruz is spending $millions on ads paid for by his N.Y. bosses.” and that he was "overly flamboyant" during one of his speeches.
Lindsey Graham
Said Graham has "no honor", said that he "Ran him out of the (presidential) race like a little boy", also called Graham a "Nasty" guy. said he "Embarrassed himself with failed run for President"
Mitt Romney
Said Mitt Romney is a "Mixed up man who doesn't have a clue", that he is "awkward and goofy" that he is a "total choke" and was a "Disaster candidate with no guts".
Chuck Schumer
Repeatedly referred to him as "Cryin' Chuck"
Glenn Beck
Referred to him as "Crying Glenn Beck", said he is a "failing crying lost soul", said he "Always seems to be crying" and that he's "Dumb as a rock".
Mort Zuckerman
Called him a "Dopey clown" said he has a "Major inferiority complex"
Alwaleed bin Talal
Said he just wants to "Control U.S. politicians with daddy's money"
Samuel L Jackson
Said he is "Not athletic"
Trump is trying to insult the "manliness" of these men when he refers to them as "Light weights" and "Crying men" and "Having to go get mommy" and needing "Daddy's money". But have you noticed anything that seems to be severely lacking when it comes to Trumps insults towards men?
He never seems to, if ever, refer to them as "Acting like a woman" or anything of that sort. These are some of the reasons why I don't believe Trump is a misogynist who hates/has some great disrespect for women. I feel he's more like a schoolyard bully who likes to beat his opposition with demeaning/humiliating insults.
Anyone who doesn't live under a rock knows that insulting a woman's looks is the easiest way to insult a woman and doesn't take much effort. But when it comes to men you have to insult other things like their successes as a man, their strength, their ability to be independent because society has told us over the years what a "real man" is. So yes, Trump doesn't insult the physical features of men in the same way that he does women, but I'm not sure why either of you would expect him to when the masculinity of men and the femininity of women are not even on the same spectrum of insults.
Women are bothered more by insults that attack their beauty while insults about men have less to do with their "beauty".
If you look at the whole Rosie O'donnel situation, how did that even start? Well it's said to have started in 2006 after Rosie O'donnel got upset with Trump because he refused to fire the Miss USA pageant winner because she was accused of being a drug user. Rosie went on live television to talk about it on The View and repeatedly insulted Trump and talked about him being bankrupt and talked about his multiple marriages and affairs as if that's anyone elses business. In other words, she didn't attack his "looks" she attacked his successes as a man. But it's hard for people to perceive such things as insulting because men are just supposed to "suck it up" and "take it like a man" it's not as insulting as talking about a woman's looks because we're not supposed to be so offended by it.
After this aired Trump responded with his own set of insults and then continued to attack her. Now obviously not all of Trump's attacks are this provoked, but the point I'm making here is that Trump doesn't seem to be attacking women because they're women. I believe Trump is a rude individual by nature because as he's said multiple times before "all press is good press". It gets him into the news and puts his name out there. If Trump was actually a guy that hits the gym everyday and looks very fit, I believe his insults towards men would be even worse, but Trumps not exactly a college athlete himself.
And yeah, Trump had affairs etc..... but why does that mean he doesn't respect women? Seems to me that Trump lacks respect for a lot of people, but I don't believe he has shown he has some great disdain for women as if they're really beneath him and unworthy of respect.
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