Oh that clever GOP

[GMDino]

No trick is too slimy to not use.

Republicans in North Carolina used a 9/11 memorial to trick Democrats into missing a key vote pic.twitter.com/6IF0PJd3t7

— NowThis (@nowthisnews) September 11, 2019

 


https://www.businessinsider.com/north-carolina-house-republicans-surprise-budget-veto-vote-2019-9



What a bunch of lowlifes.

[Dill]

(09-11-2019, 07:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: No trick is too slimy to not use.

https://www.businessinsider.com/north-carolina-house-republicans-surprise-budget-veto-vote-2019-9


What a bunch of lowlifes.

GOP = winners.  I guess.

[BmorePat87]

They're desperate. Their gerrymandering was struck down. Democrats received 50% of the votes for the state senate but only 42% of the seats. They received 50.5% of the vote for the state house but only won 45% of the seats.

With their congressional districts, Republicans received 51% of the votes but 77% of the districts (10 of 13). In their special election, a +12 R district saw Republicans only win by 1-2% of the vote and that was after massive voter fraud by the Republican's campaign in the first go around.

Their state is turning blue and they're desperately doing anything they can to erode democracy.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-11-2019, 10:29 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: They're desperate. Their gerrymandering was struck down. Democrats received 50% of the votes for the state senate but only 42% of the seats. They received 50.5% of the vote for the state house but only won 45% of the seats.

With their congressional districts, Republicans received 51% of the votes but 77% of the districts (10 of 13). In their special election, a +12 R district saw Republicans only win by 1-2% of the vote and that was after massive voter fraud by the Republican's campaign in the first go around.

Their state is turning blue and they're desperately doing anything they can to erode democracy.

This is a horribly flawed argument.  If one district went 95% Dem and another 55% GOP then the Dems would only earn one of two seats and yet earn the vast majority of the total votes.  You're better than this kind of specious "logic".

[BmorePat87]

(09-11-2019, 11:43 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is a horribly flawed argument.  If one district went 95% Dem and another 55% GOP then the Dems would only earn one of two seats and yet earn the vast majority of the total votes.  You're better than this kind of specious "logic".

For starters, I didn't make any arguments, I gave data on the last election. Then I gave my opinion that the NC GOP was desperate and was willing to turn to undemocratic means of retaining power as the population shifted blue again.

Your response is also flawed in that it ignores the fact that my post references the extremely gerrymandered nature of the state where one party was fractured to ensure that another party had a comfortable cushion in politically diverse parts of the state. Prior to the 2012 changes, Democrats and Republicans traded control with 7-6 splits most elections, reflecting the balance within their state. There were 5 solid districts for each party and 3 swing districts. After gerrymandering, the split went 9-4 then 10-3 (7 solid R, 3 solid D) despite the same voters living in those areas. The Gerrymandering of the General Assembly is also well documented. The NC GOP continues to resist the courts orders to construct maps openly without the use of election data. They asked the courts to make a millionaire GOP operative who ran the first gerrymandering the "nonpartisan referee". They tried to use pre drawn maps and even planned on having the state lottery randomly draw numbers to select between one of the many skewed maps the GOP submitted.

So, sure, a popular vote split of district elections will not be proportional to seats won, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about a concerted effort to eliminate proportional representation by artificially creating the imbalance you described and ignoring requirements that the process be neutral.

Next time leave out the patronization at the end.

[BakertheBeast]

(09-12-2019, 01:36 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: For starters, I didn't make any arguments, I gave data on the last election. Then I gave my opinion that the NC GOP was desperate and was willing to turn to undemocratic means of retaining power as the population shifted blue again.

Your response is also flawed in that it ignores the fact that my post references the extremely gerrymandered nature of the state where one party was fractured to ensure that another party had a comfortable cushion in politically diverse parts of the state. Prior to the 2012 changes, Democrats and Republicans traded control with 7-6 splits most elections, reflecting the balance within their state. There were 5 solid districts for each party and 3 swing districts. After gerrymandering, the split went 9-4 then 10-3 (7 solid R, 3 solid D) despite the same voters living in those areas. The Gerrymandering of the General Assembly is also well documented. The NC GOP continues to resist the courts orders to construct maps openly without the use of election data. They asked the courts to make a millionaire GOP operative who ran the first gerrymandering the "nonpartisan referee". They tried to use pre drawn maps and even planned on having the state lottery randomly draw numbers to select between one of the many skewed maps the GOP submitted.

So, sure, a popular vote split of district elections will not be proportional to seats won, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about a concerted effort to eliminate proportional representation by artificially creating the imbalance you described and ignoring requirements that the process be neutral.

Next time leave out the patronization at the end.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-11-2019, 10:29 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote:  In their special election, a +12 R district saw Republicans only win by 1-2% of the vote and that was after massive voter fraud by the Republican's campaign in the first go around.

A minor but important distinction: It was election fraud, not voter fraud.

The voters did nothing wrong.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-12-2019, 01:36 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: For starters, I didn't make any arguments, I gave data on the last election. Then I gave my opinion that the NC GOP was desperate and was willing to turn to undemocratic means of retaining power as the population shifted blue again.

Your response is also flawed in that it ignores the fact that my post references the extremely gerrymandered nature of the state where one party was fractured to ensure that another party had a comfortable cushion in politically diverse parts of the state. Prior to the 2012 changes, Democrats and Republicans traded control with 7-6 splits most elections, reflecting the balance within their state. There were 5 solid districts for each party and 3 swing districts. After gerrymandering, the split went 9-4 then 10-3 (7 solid R, 3 solid D) despite the same voters living in those areas. The Gerrymandering of the General Assembly is also well documented. The NC GOP continues to resist the courts orders to construct maps openly without the use of election data. They asked the courts to make a millionaire GOP operative who ran the first gerrymandering the "nonpartisan referee". They tried to use pre drawn maps and even planned on having the state lottery randomly draw numbers to select between one of the many skewed maps the GOP submitted.

So, sure, a popular vote split of district elections will not be proportional to seats won, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about a concerted effort to eliminate proportional representation by artificially creating the imbalance you described and ignoring requirements that the process be neutral.

Next time leave out the patronization at the end.

I would simply reply that you muddy the waters of your own argument when you include data that isn't relevant or could be misleading.

[BmorePat87]

(09-12-2019, 10:35 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I would simply reply that you muddy the waters of your own argument when you include data that isn't relevant or could be misleading.

You mean your argument. I've already clarified that the argument you referenced was not one that I was making.

I outlined the actions and effect of GOP gerrymandering using relevant data. You chose to interpret it as me making an argument. 

[BmorePat87]

(09-12-2019, 10:07 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: A minor but important distinction: It was election fraud, not voter fraud.

The voters did nothing wrong.

Thanks for that. Absolutely an important distinction. 

[SunsetBengal]

The Speaker had made it clear, months ago, that they would take the opportunity to override the budget veto whenever such a moment presented itself. In order to avoid this "travesty", all the Democrats needed to do was show up for work..

[GMDino]

(09-12-2019, 11:14 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The Speaker had made it clear, months ago, that they would take the opportunity to override the budget veto whenever such a moment presented itself.  In order to avoid this "travesty", all the Democrats needed to do was show up for work..

They were at an event at 8:30 in the morning commemorating 9/11.

Wouldn't it be easier for you to admit it was underhanded and sneaky than to try and shift blame to the Democrats for not "showing up for work"?

[SunsetBengal]

(09-12-2019, 11:18 AM)GMDino Wrote: They were at an event at 8:30 in the morning commemorating 9/11.

Wouldn't it be easier for you to admit it was underhanded and sneaky than to try and shift blame to the Democrats for not "showing up for work"?

Not really, but that's what they would like to let you believe.  I live in NC, I listened to a pretty detailed accounting of where most every Democrat member was, at the time, when this vote took place.  Most were inside the Capitol building..

[GMDino]

(09-12-2019, 11:21 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Not really, but that's what they would like to let you believe.  I live in NC, I listened to a pretty detailed accounting of where most every Democrat member was, at the time, when this vote took place.  Most were inside the Capitol building..

Well I guess I should not have expected everyone to see this as dirty politics when they could just blame the other side for not doing their job.

Thanks.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-12-2019, 11:44 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well I guess I should not have expected everyone to see this as dirty politics when they could just blame the other side for not doing their job.

Thanks.

On the bright side, NC now has a budget passed.  A budget that passed both houses of NC Congress, and was only vetoed by Gov. Roy Cooper, because it failed to expand Medicaid to able bodied, unemployed people.  

[jj22]

It's good to see some Trump supporters acknowledge this was wrong. That's a start to holding Republicans equally accountable to Dems which is what it's going to take for them to stop playing these games (and "winning" with these schemes that Dems could never get away with).

Too bad it wasn't universal in the thread. But it's a start.

I tip my hat to those willing to speak out. 9/11 is a day we should have avoided these "tricks" as we remembered the day and came together to take a moment to reflect on a time we stood tall as a nation.

[BmorePat87]

(09-12-2019, 01:08 PM)jj22 Wrote: It's good to see some Trump supporters acknowledge this was wrong. That's a start to holding Republicans equally accountable to Dems which is what it's going to take for them to stop playing these games (and "winning" with these schemes that Dems could never get away with).

Too bad it wasn't universal in the thread. But it's a start.

I tip my hat to those willing to speak out. 9/11 is a day we should have avoided these "tricks" as we remembered the day and came together to take a moment to reflect on a time we stood tall as a nation.

It's kind of sad that people are seemingly applauding politicians lying and using 9/11 as a scheme to advance a political agenda that they do not normally have the support for. 

[CJD]

haha I heard about this. It's crazy.
Republican politicians really do know how to leverage things like emotion, tradition and circumstance to their advantage.
it's, honestly, incredibly impressive if you ignore the moral and ethical implications of the things they do.

[BmorePat87]

(09-12-2019, 11:14 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The Speaker had made it clear, months ago, that they would take the opportunity to override the budget veto whenever such a moment presented itself.  In order to avoid this "travesty", all the Democrats needed to do was show up for work..

If you were told that your place of business wouldn't open until 1pm in honor of 9/11 but then management opened at 9 without telling you and tried to fire you for not being there, I'm pretty sure your response wouldn't be "All I needed to do was show up for work". You'd be critical of management for lying to you. 

Decency shouldn't take a back seat to partisanship. 

[Bengalzona]

Sounds like they don't love their country.