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Open the Books: U.S. Department of Education wastes billions each year
#1
Wondering if people can sort this out. If there is waste of taxpayer money, where is it exactly?  Federal money going into a university doesn't automatically mean it is going to a president or football coaches salary, does it? (I saw this report referenced on Hannity tonight.)

Open the Books: U.S. Department of Education wastes billions each year
https://www.watchdog.org/national/open-the-books-u-s-department-of-education-wastes-billions/article_f6607ebe-57d3-11e9-91ab-0bfa79e5217e.html

In the wake of criticism over the U.S. Department of Education’s (DOE) proposed funding cuts to the Special Olympics, OpenTheBooks.com published a report of all the ways it says the agency is wasting taxpayer money, including the DOE overpaying $11 billion in Pell grants and student loans over the past two fiscal years alone.

OpenTheBooks.com’s new oversight report “reveals outdated policies, misaligned priorities, and weak accounting controls at the department. Resources are being squandered,” the organization’s CEO and founder, Adam Andrzejewski, says.

“Federal funding is being poured into the nation's richest colleges, the worst performing junior colleges, nontraditional colleges you didn't know existed, for-profit schools, and more,” he adds.

The 50 lowest performing junior and community colleges in the nation received $923.5 million in DOE student loans and grants, the report found. Of them, the 10 that received the most federal funding had a 12 percent graduation rate, on average.

The report highlights how federal money was spent on “higher education” programs, including $51.4 million of taxpayer money for a video game college at DigiPen Institute of Technology and $9.5 million to the Crescent City School of Gaming and Bartending.

The Professional Golfers Career College received $4.5 million in federal funds, and Northwest School of Wooden Boat Building received $781,330.

The agency also spent billions of dollars on staffing. It spent $1.6 billion to hire companies to collect and disperse federal student loans, according to the audit.

In fiscal year 2017, the DOE employed 3,818 staffers; 2,600 earned more than $100,000. On average, including benefits, each employee costs taxpayers $143,992, the report states.

The agency’s employees spent 6,522 working hours in Fiscal Year 2016 on union activities instead of on their department jobs despite being paid by taxpayers, the report notes. In March 2018, the DOE eliminated this policy, called “official time,” saving taxpayers about $500,000 annually.
“Employee unions are private organizations, not public entities,” OpenTheBooks.com notes.
The top five states who receive the most federal money – 36 percent of all DOE funding – are California ($18.6 billion), Texas ($12.6 billion), New York ($11.9 billion), Florida ($9.5 billion), and Illinois ($7.2 billion). Federal funding included grants, contracts, direct payments and student loans.

High tuition costs could easily be dropped in light of the federal funding pouring into higher education institutions, Stephen Moore, an economic consultant with FreedomWorks, says.

The DOE gave $6.9 billion to 25 colleges and universities that have the largest endowments in the country. Collectively, they hold one quarter-trillion dollars in existing assets. They received federal money in the form of grants, contracts, and direct payments, and student loans.

“If universities are going to rely on taxpayers to subsidize their exorbitant costs, it makes sense for the public to hold these schools to the high standards they say they hold their students to,” Moore argues. “Notre Dame, Princeton, Yale, Harvard and other elite schools like Duke and USC can’t make a plausible case for the need for billions of dollars annually in federal subsidies when these schools’ bank accounts hold hundreds of millions and in many cases billions of dollars of funds.”

Moore points out that even without any new gifts, “most if not all Ivy League endowment could fund full-ride scholarships for all financially needy undergraduate students for the next half-century. With continued gifts to universities, tuition could practically be free to students forever without the endowments running dry.”

The most expensive colleges should be required to lower their tuitions costs every year by 5 to 10 percent, Moore said. The institutions can cut costs or use their endowments to subsidize the out-of-pocket costs paid by students and/or taxpayers.
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#2
Here is a page from the Open the Books report on the Dept. of Education referenced above.
TOP 10 TAKEAWAYS

1.The 25 colleges and universities with the largest endowments in the country reaped $6.9 billion inDepartment of Education (ED) funding despite holding a quarter-trillion in existing assets, collectively.This money was distributed as grants, contracts, and direct payments (FY2017) as well as student loans(FY2017-FY2018).

2.The 50 lowest performing junior and community colleges in the nation received $923.5 million in ED stu-dent loans (FY2017-FY2018) and grants (FY2017). Of these 50    schools, the 10 which received the mostfederal funding had a 12 percent graduation rate, on average.

3.ED overpaid $11 billion in Pell grants and loans over a two-year period (FY2016-FY2017).

4.  Nontraditional schools reaped millions of dollars in federal funding (FY2014-FY2017) such as an international school for video game design ($51.4 million), a school for wooden boat-making ($781,330), an Arizona college for gun-smithing ($10.4 million), a school for gambling and bartending ($9.5 million), and the Professional Golfers Career College ($4.5 million).

5.The average wage at ED in FY2017 was $109,918. The average employee cost taxpayers $143,992, in-cluding  benefits. In May 2018, ED disclosed 3,818 employees – a large decrease from 4,642 employeesin 2012.

6.Nearly $700 million in federal funding flowed to schools of cosmetology, beauty, and hair, including mil-lions of dollars to industry juggernauts like Empire Beauty School ($65.6 million) and Tricoci Universityof Beauty Culture ($12.3 million) in the form of grants, direct payments, and contracts (FY2017), as wellas student loans (FY2017-FY2018).

7.Federal funding of $10.5 billion flowed to for-profit colleges in FY2017. Just 10 for-profit schools re-ceived  nearly 30 percent of this funding. Many for-profit colleges have been cited for alleged discrimi-nation, harassment, and even fraud. This funding is comprised of grants, direct payments, and contracts(FY2017) as well as student loans (FY2017-FY2018).

8.ED spent $1.6 billion hiring companies to collect and disperse federal student loans.

9.ED employees spent 6,522 working-hours (FY2016) doing union activities rather than working their de-partment jobs. During this time, employees’ hourly wages are still taxpayer funded. This practice isknown as ‘official time.’ In March 2018, ED eliminated this policy, saving taxpayers roughly $500,000annually. Employee unions are private organizations, not public entities.

10.The top five recipient states claimed 36 percent of all ED funding: California ($18.6 billion), Texas ($12.6billion), New York  ($11.9 billion), Florida ($9.5 billion), and Illinois ($7.2 billion). This funding includedgrants, contracts, direct payments (FY2017) as well as student loans (FY2017-FY2018)

https://www.openthebooks.com/assets/1/7/ED_Report_Final.pdf
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#3
Along those lines I recommend the following episode of "Revisionist History"

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/06-my-little-hundred-million


Quote:In the early ’90s, Hank Rowan gave $100 million to a university in New Jersey, an act of extraordinary generosity that helped launch the greatest explosion in educational philanthropy since the days of Andrew Carnegie and the Rockefellers. But Rowan gave his money to Glassboro State University, a tiny, almost bankrupt school in South Jersey, while almost all of the philanthropists who followed his lead made their donations to elite schools such as Harvard and Yale. Why did no one follow Rowan’s example?

“My Little Hundred Million” is the third part of Revisionist History’s educational miniseries. It looks at the hidden ideologies behind giving and how a strange set of ideas has hijacked educational philanthropy.
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Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
#4
I wish I had a comment, but I don't know enough to say what is a waste and what is not. I assume every department that large is going to have a large amount of waste in pure dollars. They call some of the non-traditional schools a waste, but there are plenty of degrees in traditional universities that don't mean much except that you have a four year degree.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall

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#5
Back 8-9 years ago I did a story over a local community college. It was nationally recognized for a number of programs it implemented, one of those being its successful adult education.

I found out two employees out of four person team in the adult education department had been on administrative leave. I asked around and found out the school was investigating the people altering grades to give more positive outcomes. And attendance. Some of those enrolled allegedly stopped showing up halfway through courses, but passed courses anyway. One of them talked to me off the record and said everyone did it as the regents were pressuring the higher up folks to have a successful adult education program, so they in turn pressured the departments to improve scores and success rates through any means necessary.

But since the college fired the employees who did it, they got to keep their grants and other revenue streams like it never happened.
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#6
Don’t have a problem with number 4 or 6. Non-traditional schools that teach a trade should be a readily available and encouraged option, instead of 4 years of college.

I’d put dealing with waste of the Pentagon as a waaaaaaaay higher priority.
#7
An ongoing problem in all administrations. It's discouraging that the current policy is to treat for-profit institutions with low graduation rates as legitimate and beneficial. I do not see things getting better anytime soon.

The culture of "everyone goes to college" needs to end in schools too.
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#8
(04-10-2019, 11:32 AM)Benton Wrote: Back 8-9 years ago I did a story over a local community college. It was nationally recognized for a number of programs it implemented, one of those being its successful adult education.

I found out two employees out of four person team in the adult education department had been on administrative leave. I asked around and found out the school was investigating the people altering grades to give more positive outcomes. And attendance. Some of those enrolled allegedly stopped showing up halfway through courses, but passed courses anyway. One of them talked to me off the record and said everyone did it as the regents were pressuring the higher up folks to have a successful adult education program, so they in turn pressured the departments to improve scores and success rates through any means necessary.

But since the college fired the employees who did it, they got to keep their grants and other revenue streams like it never happened.

I have a story along these lines. 

When I was on a military base in Qatar, I overheard two soldiers talking about a college course that gave away free I-phones. I talked to the field rep for that college and he confirmed. It was a course in C++ which was downloaded on the free phone. So it was like an online course, which allowed students to work their way through at their own pace.  No administration/instructor/classroom costs.

I then talked to an administrator buddy at the ed center unaffiliated with any college (AAFES salary I think) and he said yes, there were 32 people enrolled in the course. Plus it was a two-semester course costing $4,000, pretty much a full year's allotment of Tuition Assistance. And this had already been going on for a year (i.e., soldiers signing up to get the phone).

I said "don't they have to pay back that tuition if they fail?" and he said so far as he knew, there was no final exam, no transcript accountability.  Soldiers were just signing up to get free I-phones which cost the taxpayer 4,000 apiece.  I asked the field rep about the final exam and he Carter Paged it. Couldn't get a straight answer.  Don't know for sure how this played out for the soldiers.  

At the time I pegged it as one of the many abuses of taxpayer dollars which float deployed sites, like illegally trafficked labor, just one of those things that goes alongside "the mission" far from US accountability. Someone in that college who knew how things worked downrange, especially the gaps in accountability metrics, figured out this phone gimmick to "serve the soldiers" far from home and rake in their TA.
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#9
(04-10-2019, 12:58 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: An ongoing problem in all administrations. It's discouraging that the current policy is to treat for-profit institutions with low graduation rates as legitimate and beneficial. I do not see things getting better anytime soon.

The culture of "everyone goes to college" needs to end in schools too.

For profits have a strong lobby. Even so, they have been penalized for tricking people into getting loans they cannot possible pay back to take courses they cannot possibly finish.

John Boehner Backed Deregulation Of Online Learning, Leading To Explosive Growth At For-Profit Colleges
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/john-boehner-for-profit-colleges_n_909589

Phoenix in Flames Again: Apollo Group Settles Another Suit
https://blogs.findlaw.com/decided/2009/12/phoenix-in-flames-again-apollo-group-settles-another-suit.html

They settled for $9.8 million in 2004. But the lesson must not have sunk in at this for-profit higher education company. This time around, the University of Phoenix and its parent, Apollo Group Inc., should have to write on 78.5 million dollar bills, "I will not illegally recruit students, I will not illegally recruit students." 

In 2004, Apollo Group settled with the Department of Education for nearly $10 million after a disparaging report from the Department that, among many other things, found a corporate culture overly focused on boosting enrollment. The Department said the University of Phoenix, "systematically and intentionally operates in a duplicitous manner so as to violate the department's prohibition against incentive compensation while evading detection."

The University's parent company, Apollo Group, disagreed. The Arizona Republic reported at the time that Todd Nelson, chairman and CEO at Apollo, had this to say, "If we were guilty of everything being said in that report, there's no way they'd [the Dept. of Education] be willing to reach a settlement." It should be noted that at that time, the settlement was the the largest of its kind.

In the current case, Apollo Group was sued under the federal False Claims Act by whistle-blowers who were employed as enrollment counselors at the University of Phoenix and who alleged that the defendants defrauded the government because it paid recruiters based on the number of students they enrolled (in violation of the law). The False Claims Act allows plaintiffs to sue on behalf of the government when they have knowledge of fraud against it.

But the problem won't go away, especially affecting vets and their millions in TA and GI bill benefits.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/29/for-profit-colleges-student-veterans-1288265
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#10
(04-10-2019, 02:34 PM)Dill Wrote: For profits have a strong lobby. Even so, they have been penalized for tricking people into getting loans they cannot possible pay back to take courses they cannot possibly finish.

John Boehner Backed Deregulation Of Online Learning, Leading To Explosive Growth At For-Profit Colleges
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/john-boehner-for-profit-colleges_n_909589

Phoenix in Flames Again: Apollo Group Settles Another Suit
https://blogs.findlaw.com/decided/2009/12/phoenix-in-flames-again-apollo-group-settles-another-suit.html

They settled for $9.8 million in 2004. But the lesson must not have sunk in at this for-profit higher education company. This time around, the University of Phoenix and its parent, Apollo Group Inc., should have to write on 78.5 million dollar bills, "I will not illegally recruit students, I will not illegally recruit students." 

In 2004, Apollo Group settled with the Department of Education for nearly $10 million after a disparaging report from the Department that, among many other things, found a corporate culture overly focused on boosting enrollment. The Department said the University of Phoenix, "systematically and intentionally operates in a duplicitous manner so as to violate the department's prohibition against incentive compensation while evading detection."

The University's parent company, Apollo Group, disagreed. The Arizona Republic reported at the time that Todd Nelson, chairman and CEO at Apollo, had this to say, "If we were guilty of everything being said in that report, there's no way they'd [the Dept. of Education] be willing to reach a settlement." It should be noted that at that time, the settlement was the the largest of its kind.

In the current case, Apollo Group was sued under the federal False Claims Act by whistle-blowers who were employed as enrollment counselors at the University of Phoenix and who alleged that the defendants defrauded the government because it paid recruiters based on the number of students they enrolled (in violation of the law). The False Claims Act allows plaintiffs to sue on behalf of the government when they have knowledge of fraud against it.

But the problem won't go away, especially affecting vets and their millions in TA and GI bill benefits.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/29/for-profit-colleges-student-veterans-1288265

and when the DOE is rolling back regulations and hiring those who worked at those types of schools, the problem definitely won't go away.
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#11
(04-10-2019, 12:58 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The culture of "everyone goes to college" needs to end in schools too.

This is a big thing I think. It isn't quite the same as the need to cut back excess/bloated government spending, but still an important topic regardless.

Not everyone SHOULD go to college. You have a lot of not particularly bright people going to college, getting degrees that they will never use, and just racking up debt... because they are told for the 7 years of middle-high school that you NEED to go to college or you won't ever succeed in life.

It has led to a ton of debt and a complete devaluation of a bachelor's degree in the job market.

We are also as a society running low on trained trade workers. Convincing people they need to go to college and get a degree in English or Psychology are is drawing people who would probably be more suited or making more money as a welder, electrician, plumber, etc.

I understand that you are supposed to tell a child they can succeed and do whatever they want in life, but college went from something intelligent (or rich) people went to, to something anyone can get a piece of paper from so long as they are willing to take on the debt. Maybe this is a part of W Bush's terrible "No Child Left Behind" policy, which failed to recognize that some people are smart, and some people aren't. That it is okay to plan accordingly, instead of the one-size-fits-all, everyone-to-college society now.
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#12
(04-10-2019, 03:09 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This is a big thing I think. It isn't quite the same as the need to cut back excess/bloated government spending, but still an important topic regardless.

Not everyone SHOULD go to college. You have a lot of not particularly bright people going to college, getting degrees that they will never use, and just racking up debt... because they are told for the 7 years of middle-high school that you NEED to go to college or you won't ever succeed in life.

It has led to a ton of debt and a complete devaluation of a bachelor's degree in the job market.

We are also as a society running low on trained trade workers. Convincing people they need to go to college and get a degree in English or Psychology are is drawing people who would probably be more suited or making more money as a welder, electrician, plumber, etc.

I understand that you are supposed to tell a child they can succeed and do whatever they want in life, but college went from something intelligent (or rich) people went to, to something anyone can get a piece of paper from so long as they are willing to take on the debt. Maybe this is a part of W Bush's terrible "No Child Left Behind" policy, which failed to recognize that some people are smart, and some people aren't. That it is okay to plan accordingly, instead of the one-size-fits-all, everyone-to-college society now.

I doubt many people "suited" for life as welders are much drawn to English, where they have to read hard stuff and write lots of papers.

But I take your general point. There are lots of people who back into college degrees. They go to college to get a job, but aren't particularly interested in any field.  So they gravitate towards majors they think provide the most likelihood of getting hired (e.g., criminology, hotel management, business), or the easiest ones (not Chemistry or violin).  Very costly. 

That said, I think college should be for everybody--in the sense it should not just be for the rich or white people. Every U.S. citizen who can qualify should have the opportunity. It should not just be about getting a job--vocational training either.

And I agree the other alternatives should be emphasized too. My son was considering going to electrician school once. I wish he had. Our neighbor's  son got a degree in air conditioning and heating and is doing well.  
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#13
(04-10-2019, 05:56 PM)Dill Wrote: I doubt many people "suited" for life as welders are much drawn to English, where they have to read hard stuff and write lots of papers.

But I take your general point. There are lots of people who back into college degrees. They go to college to get a job, but aren't particularly interested in any field.  So they gravitate towards majors they think provide the most likelihood of getting hired (e.g., criminology, hotel management, business), or the easiest ones (not Chemistry or violin).  Very costly. 

That said, I think college should be for everybody--in the sense it should not just be for the rich or white people. Every U.S. citizen who can qualify should have the opportunity. It should not just be about getting a job--vocational training either.

And I agree the other alternatives should be emphasized too. My son was considering going to electrician school once. I wish he had. Our neighbor's  son got a degree in air conditioning and heating and is doing well.  

You and I are pretty much in agreement. It should be available to everyone, but not everyone should go, and alternate paths should be promoted more.

There was a trade school affiliation with my high school for the final two years, but it was painted in a pretty negative light, and the teachers always were preaching about how you needed college. Fast forward awhile and I saw of people working at a phone store or coffee shop or somewhere with a college degree. Or found out only two years and $20k into college that it wasn't for them. Meanwhile as you said, air conditioning and heating pays well and you don't have 40k in debt to start off adulthood.


EDIT: I forgot to say I also think where efforts need to be aimed is towards increasing apprenticeships. There's a whole Baby Boomer generation of skilled workers finally leaving the workforce, and all of that rich experience and knowledge is going to just vanish. So much that you simply can't learn in a classroom from a person who is a teacher for a living or a book, rather than a person who did that trade for a living for 40+ years.
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#14
I'm telling y'all, the three different secondary schools system in Germany makes a lot of sense to me and it seems like it would be popular based on the conversations I am seeing here.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
#15
(04-10-2019, 06:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: EDIT: I forgot to say I also think where efforts need to be aimed is towards increasing apprenticeships. There's a whole Baby Boomer generation of skilled workers finally leaving the workforce, and all of that rich experience and knowledge is going to just vanish. So much that you simply can't learn in a classroom from a person who is a teacher for a living or a book, rather than a person who did that trade for a living for 40+ years.

Agreed.  and well said.
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#16
(04-10-2019, 06:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm telling y'all, the three different secondary schools system in Germany makes a lot of sense to me and it seems like it would be popular based on the conversations I am seeing here.

It is a good system, but Americans might not accept it.

I was a bit horrified when one of my daughter's friends had a recommendation to Gymnasium and her parents wanted her to go the Hauptschule route instead.  Germans were more comfortable with tracks and lesser options than most U.S. parents would be. 

The Realschule is a good deal for many though. People are already apprentices at 16 and working.  And they still have a good basic education.
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#17
(04-10-2019, 06:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm telling y'all, the three different secondary schools system in Germany makes a lot of sense to me and it seems like it would be popular based on the conversations I am seeing here.

Oh man, could you imagine the reaction if Hitl-- I mean Trump suggested adopting a system from Germany? Ninja Ninja

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Mandatory Trump-is-Hitler jokes aside, reading up on it a bit it seems like I could support their system if there were some changes.

Most notably, I don't think it should be at age 10, but probably 14 (when you go into Highschool). That's in my mind where the mandatory education stops being quite as useful for all. Chemistry and memorizing the periodic table, Algebra II, Pre-Calculus, and the like, really aren't things that everyone needs to know. You can probably throw Robert Frost and the like in there as well. That's probably stuff that should be included based off ability/interest rather than standard-for-all.

Granted, I have also always been of the opinion that there is a lot of fat in our education standards and not a lot of meat. What's the purpose of being required to know Au is Gold on the periodic table, while never being taught how to check your car's oil, make a budget for yourself, interview for a job, or set up a bank account? Things that would be actually useful for everyone in life who ISN'T going to grow up to be a scientist, aka the vast majority of the world.
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#18
(04-10-2019, 06:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm telling y'all, the three different secondary schools system in Germany makes a lot of sense to me and it seems like it would be popular based on the conversations I am seeing here.

The biggest issue with implementing a system like that in the US are parents. Far too many in this country have a my baby is special and deserves to be treated better than everyone else mentality. Try telling one of those parents that their tidepod eating, condom snorting kid isn't smart enough to go to college and see what happens.
#19
(04-10-2019, 07:00 PM)Dill Wrote: It is a good system, but Americans might not accept it.

I was a bit horrified when one of my daughter's friends had a recommendation to Gymnasium and her parents wanted her to go the Hauptschule route instead.  Germans were more comfortable with tracks and lesser options than most U.S. parents would be. 

The Realschule is a good deal for many though. People are already apprentices at 16 and working.  And they still have a good basic education.

It would definitely be a big culture shock to a lot of people, but I'd be willing to bet that a state that is a bit more blue collar would do it. Try it out in West Virginia, for instance, and you would see some good results.

(04-10-2019, 07:15 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Oh man, could you imagine the reaction if Hitl-- I mean Trump suggested adopting a system from Germany? Ninja Ninja

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Mandatory Trump-is-Hitler jokes aside, reading up on it a bit it seems like I could support their system if there were some changes.

Most notably, I don't think it should be at age 10, but probably 14 (when you go into Highschool). That's in my mind where the mandatory education stops being quite as useful for all. Chemistry and memorizing the periodic table, Algebra II, Pre-Calculus, and the like, really aren't things that everyone needs to know. You can probably throw Robert Frost and the like in there as well. That's probably stuff that should be included based off ability/interest rather than standard-for-all.

Granted, I have also always been of the opinion that there is a lot of fat in our education standards and not a lot of meat. What's the purpose of being required to know Au is Gold on the periodic table, while never being taught how to check your car's oil, make a budget for yourself, interview for a job, or set up a bank account? Things that would be actually useful for everyone in life who ISN'T going to grow up to be a scientist, aka the vast majority of the world.

So you're thinking grade ten instead of age ten. I can see that.

One thought I had for a reconfiguration is based on my middle school experience. In sixth grade, we spent six weeks each in a different class that was designed to give us an idea of the electives that would be available in the coming years. Then in seventh, you started taking some of those lower level classes for things like shop class, and some others I can't remember because I didn't care too much about them. So what about something like that in sixth, or maybe all through middle school/junior high?

So elementary, K-5, is same education for everyone. Middle/jr. high would be all about looking at different options for secondary school. In doing this, it gives the students/parents more of an idea of choice. They get to experience a taste of it, see what the student has the aptitude for, etc. It's not going to solve all of the problems because, as everyone seems to be agreeing on, the "special little snowflake" situation is a strong one here in the US. But I do think that using a state as a bit of a laboratory for this would be a good idea, and there are some states I believe would embrace it full on. Honestly, take this idea along Appalachia in general and it would turn out well.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
#20
(04-10-2019, 07:15 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Granted, I have also always been of the opinion that there is a lot of fat in our education standards and not a lot of meat. What's the purpose of being required to know Au is Gold on the periodic table, while never being taught how to check your car's oil, make a budget for yourself, interview for a job, or set up a bank account? Things that would be actually useful for everyone in life who ISN'T going to grow up to be a scientist, aka the vast majority of the world.


1.  No one knows if they want to be a chemist if they are never exposed to it.  You can't expect little kids to decide their lifes occupation without first learning about the choices.

2.  As for learning how to "live life" I think parents should be responsible for that kind of stuff.  Let teachers work on he stuff that needs some specialized knowledge.  Let the parents teach the basics.





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