Pelosi Took responsibility for Jan. 6th

[HarleyDog]

(06-12-2024, 03:56 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, that what I figured out too, based on context. I still do not get the literal meaning behind it. But I can live with that.



Well, I was referring to what he did after the violence broke out. To claim he actually did something because he asked for the national guard to protect his people three days before the events took place, imho, also is misleading. As for your other point, the Ornato interview, that is a decent rebuttal and it might warrant an amendment to my previous statement. The imho still devastating thing is that it quite possibly would not even have needed the national guard. In all likelyhood all Trump would have had to do is to type STOP IT! on his twitter account.

I don't think he had the power to stop it. He did ask the protestors to be peaceful. But you had a lot of people who felt (and many still do) that the election was rigged. They felt like their democracy had been stolen and they were angry. There were only a few bad actors at this protest when the attendance as a whole is considered. 

[hollodero]

(06-12-2024, 04:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I don't think he had the power to stop it. He did ask the protestors to be peaceful. But you had a lot of people who felt (and many still do) that the election was rigged. They felt like their democracy had been stolen and they were angry.

Which is an idea that Donald Trump put in their head, falsely, since there is no evidence the election was actually rigged in Biden's favor. I can not possibly declare Trump free of guilt for so intensely propagating that lie. And all these people were sent by him, they all were convinced that they were acting on Trump's behalf and acting on his wishes. Had he made it clear that violence and storming the Capitol was not in his interest, immediately after the violence unfolded, it possibly would have gone a long way to end it way sooner. At the very least, he should have tried and failing to do so makes him morally guilty in my book.

(06-12-2024, 04:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: There were only a few bad actors at this protest when the attendance as a whole is considered. 

Well, I don't really think so, but I can't really prove otherwise in a way that you would be convinced. Admittedly, I generally have a hard time imagining how good people march alongside proud boys, oathkeepers and the like - who mostly were not disguised in any way, but showed openly what kind of people they were. To me it's similar to the whole Charlottesville situation, where allegedly good people marched alongside Nazis who shouted Nazi things. Imho, that just is not what good people do.
Btw. this answer is not meant to be confrontational. I am aware that everyone here opposes violence.

[hollodero]

(06-12-2024, 04:02 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: I would disagree with the first, since a a whole, the vast majority of protestors were not of the group you are listing. But you may be correct they were there, and some had bad intentions, as I have already stated.

They demonstrably were there (they openly carried their markings) and Trump was informed about their presence.

(06-12-2024, 04:02 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: There were protestors allowed in by police and escorted around the Capitol. The pictures released  only highlight the worst of the event, not the peaceful people, because that does not sell newspapers. If you see any of the more recent pictures released, you will see many, a vast majority, of the protestors were indeed peaceful.

I have to say though, all the bad pictures and vids were bad enough for me to not really care all that much about the not-so-bad things that might have also taken place. But ok, I don't really know.

(06-12-2024, 04:02 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Hopefully the whole picture becomes clear in time, like the pipe bomb mystery, in time.

Oh my I totally forgot about that one. That seems to be a dud.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(06-12-2024, 04:22 PM)hollodero Wrote: Oh my I totally forgot about that one. That seems to be a dud.

It was suspicious in the placement, reporting, reaction to the report, and disposal effort being done with most cameras pulled away from it (remote cameras).

No idea about the whole thing, just know there are theories and I am curious.

[HarleyDog]

(06-12-2024, 04:18 PM)hollodero Wrote: Which is an idea that Donald Trump put in their head, falsely, since there is no evidence the election was actually rigged in Biden's favor. I can not possibly declare Trump free of guilt for so intensely propagating that lie. And all these people were sent by him, they all were convinced that they were acting on Trump's behalf and acting on his wishes. Had he made it clear that violence and storming the Capitol was not in his interest, immediately after the violence unfolded, it possibly would have gone a long way to end it way sooner. At the very least, he should have tried and failing to do so makes him morally guilty in my book.

I have no debate on anything you said here. However, This was still fresh at the time. I think he believed it was stolen. People believed it was stolen.

Quote:Well, I don't really think so, but I can't really prove otherwise in a way that you would be convinced. Admittedly, I generally have a hard time imagining how good people march alongside proud boys, oathkeepers and the like - who mostly were not disguised in any way, but showed openly what kind of people they were. To me it's similar to the whole Charlottesville situation, where allegedly good people marched alongside Nazis who shouted Nazi things. Imho, that just is not what good people do.

Btw. this answer is not meant to be confrontational. I am aware that everyone here opposes violence.

To be fair, it's not like these people wore patches stating they were with a specific group of people and people said, "Hey, let's follow they oathkeepers or the proud boys, or whoever. Also, if you have a crowd of thousands of people and these groups interject themselves into the middle of the crowd, where is the crowd to go where they would not be followed? 

Also, I didn't take your remarks as being confrontational, but opposite. I thought it was well written. In the end, we have 2 sides who keep critical information secret while twisting other information to make the other look bad. We never get the whole story, and probably never will. So, we discuss and hopefully meet somewhere in the middle. Whatever conclusion we come up with is the most honest, even if it's far from the truth itself. 

[*pally*]

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I have no debate on anything you said here. However, This was still fresh at the time. I think he believed it was stolen. People believed it was stolen.



To be fair, it's not like these people wore patches stating they were with a specific group of people and people said, "Hey, let's follow they oathkeepers or the proud boys, or whoever. Also, if you have a crowd of thousands of people and these groups interject themselves into the middle of the crowd, where is the crowd to go where they would not be followed? 

Also, I didn't take your remarks as being confrontational, but opposite. I thought it was well written. In the end, we have 2 sides who keep critical information secret while twisting other information to make the other look bad. We never get the whole story, and probably never will. So, we discuss and hopefully meet somewhere in the middle. Whatever conclusion we come up with is the most honest, even if it's far from the truth itself. 

To be fair, anyone in that crowd in Washington on Jan 6, knew very well these groups were among them.  It wasn't a secret.  They publically supported Trump who only demounced it once when forced with his message sending "stand down and stand ready"

[HarleyDog]

(06-12-2024, 05:28 PM)pally Wrote: To be fair, anyone in that crowd in Washington on Jan 6, knew very well these groups were among them.  It wasn't a secret.  They publically supported Trump who only demounced it once when forced with his message sending "stand down and stand ready"

I mean this in the nicest way possible, I seriously do. But how the hell do you know that? How do you know what people knew? That's an absurd statement and has zero merit. And even if they did know (which they didn't), why should that stop someone from protesting? The reason to protest is to have your voice heard. It wouldn't stop me from attending. I doubt it would stop you from attending a protest if the cause was great enough to you. Why would I give two thoughts about a few small groups in the middle of thousands. They don't represent me. I represent me. Are you seriously that hateful to anyone and anything that doesn't perfectly align with your assumption or opinions? It seems everything is black and white with you. One person does something bad, and in your eyes it's the entire group. There is no discussion. 

[hollodero]

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I have no debate on anything you said here. However, This was still fresh at the time. I think he believed it was stolen.

Which I would have to consider to be a failing on his part, if he really believed it (which I am not certain of, but I don't know). He had no basis aside from his own ego, which I would describe as a narcissistic one, to actually believe it was rigged. His own DOJ, up to Mr. Barr, told him that it wasn't. His close advisors told him that it wasn't. Mr. Pence, who was nothing but subservient to this point, told him that it wasn't. All the states, all the courts told him it wasn't. Yet Trump chose to believe and claim that it was. There's a point where I can not really use this alleged belief of his, which amounts to sheer denial of reality, as an excuse. He failed in his duty to do everything in his power to prevent this escalation from happening and I see no way around it, even while trying to stay as unbiased and neutral as possible.

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: People believed it was stolen.

Because they believed him. But that is tough for me to understand anyway, why people just believe him, but that's another can of worms.

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: To be fair, it's not like these people wore patches stating they were with a specific group of people

Actually, quite some of them apparently did exactly that, they were not disguised at all. Eg this website (Voice of America), states that "clues into the rioters' affiliation came from their clothes, signs, flags, banners and other markers, experts say. While some groups sought to disguise their ties, others flaunted their ideological affiliation. A group of Proud Boys in orange hats identified themselves on camera as members of a state chapter. The Three Percenters carried a U.S. Revolution-era American flag." - so well, imho they could have known. And even if not, even if one were to be ignorant towards flags and banners and orange hats and all that. I might give some leniency to bystanders that did not actually enter the building, but whoever entered the Capitol, the way I see it, has no real excuse. It was at this point apparent enough that this turns into an extremists' riot.

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Also, if you have a crowd of thousands of people and these groups interject themselves into the middle of the crowd, where is the crowd to go where they would not be followed? 

Well, I'd say just walk away, stroll away on Penn Avenue, it's not like they would really follow you if you leave. Imho everyone could just have walked away without any hinderance at any time while things spiraled into an escalation.

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: In the end, we have 2 sides who keep critical information secret while twisting other information to make the other look bad. We never get the whole story, and probably never will. So, we discuss and hopefully meet somewhere in the middle. Whatever conclusion we come up with is the most honest, even if it's far from the truth itself. 

Sure, I would never expect a Jan 6 committee to give me the whole truth without any spinning, I am not naive like that. Everything I know and believe to know for a fact though, as little as that actually is, leads me to the strong belief that Trump can not be seen as completely innocent - morally speaking - and the same goes for the people that entered the Capitol. No matter what they were led to believe, they knew it was wrong, are responsible for their actions and so is Trump.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(06-12-2024, 04:18 PM)hollodero Wrote: Which is an idea that Donald Trump put in their head, falsely, since there is no evidence the election was actually rigged in Biden's favor. I can not possibly declare Trump free of guilt for so intensely propagating that lie. 

One thing some might considered as rigged in Biden's favor was the nation wide changes in election protocol than did not follow the Constitution, due to the pandemic occurring.

I always found it odd that this was never addressed and just widely accepted.

Even more odd that there was no corrective action taken to prevent such issues in the future.

[HarleyDog]

(06-12-2024, 07:29 PM)hollodero Wrote: Sure, I would never expect a Jan 6 committee to give me the whole truth without any spinning, I am not naive like that. Everything I know and believe to know for a fact though, as little as that actually is, leads me to the strong belief that Trump can not be seen as completely innocent - morally speaking - and the same goes for the people that entered the Capitol. No matter what they were led to believe, they knew it was wrong, are responsible for their actions and so is Trump.

Absolutely. People who entered the capital had no right being there. When they entered, there were some bad hombres in that crowd. But also recognize, there where probably a lot of idiots also who just thought it would be cool to storm the capital (without intent of harming anyone). You can see that in the videos. People were walking through the halls and lobbies. Not running, not destroying stuff etc. Some did, but not most. 

I do feel Trump has some responsibility.  But the left and the LWM put it all on his back. It's not all his fault. But if we make it his fault, hopefully we make him unelectable. That has been the goal of the left since he was elected and before he was sworn into office, and I don't think that's to far fetched to swallow. His first 4 years was nothing but attacks. 

Trumps problem is he's smart, but also an idiot. He is a narcissistic moron and doesn't know how to communicate properly. He's not a politician. He doesn't know how to hide it like the others do. He lies, but I don't know of any politicians who don't that want to get elected.  

Man, it really sucks we don't have better options, but I think both parties and the media are equally responsible for how we got here.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(06-12-2024, 05:28 PM)pally Wrote: To be fair, anyone in that crowd in Washington on Jan 6, knew very well these groups were among them.  It wasn't a secret.  They publically supported Trump who only demounced it once when forced with his message sending "stand down and stand ready"

More secret decoder ring nonsense.

[HarleyDog]

(06-12-2024, 07:55 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: One thing some might considered as rigged in Biden's favor was the nation wide changes in election protocol than did not follow the Constitution, due to the pandemic occurring.

I always found it odd that this was never addressed and just widely accepted.

Even more odd that there was no corrective action taken to prevent such issues in the future.

Hold up. This ^^^^.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(06-12-2024, 08:14 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Hold up. This ^^^^.

People forget that, dismiss kids are dumber now due to unneeded lock downs, and still the left credits Biden on how he handled the pandemic!

He did generational damage and the lockstep left pat him on the back, soft enough that he doesn't get sand bagged...

Amazing, they have them so in line. I cannot recall anyone on the left on this board having a true difference of opinion.

Lockstep.

[hollodero]

(06-12-2024, 07:55 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: One thing some might considered as rigged in Biden's favor was the nation wide changes in election protocol than did not follow the Constitution, due to the pandemic occurring.

I always found it odd that this was never addressed and just widely accepted.

Even more odd that there was no corrective action taken to prevent such issues in the future.

Alright, I honestly do not know enough about how elections are addressed in the constitution to make this determination. Mail-in ballots and the like don't seem to be unconstitutional, but maybe some things can be seen that way. The main point I would make is that Trump did not focus on this. He was talking about ballots being thrown in rivers, about millions of illegals voting, voters being carried around in buses to vote illegally in different states, dead people voting, fraudulent election workers taking in fake ballots, corrupt state secretaries being in on it, corrupt judges affirming the fraudulent results, mysterious votes appearing, these kind of things. Not so much 'changes in election protocol', which putting all maybe legitimate critizisms aside still did not lead to a credible and provable case of actual wide-spread and systematic voter fraud taking place.

Of course not to mention that being dissatisfied with election protocol does not justify one bit to storm the capitol, or run fake elector schemes, or pressuring state secretaries to find the exact number of votes to overthrow the result.

PS I always agreed with conservatives on things like the voter ID issue, so it's not like I see your system as perfectly legit in the first place. It's just, you have to back up voter fraud claims nonetheless or else you have no business making such claims.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(06-12-2024, 08:32 PM)hollodero Wrote: Alright, I honestly do not know enough about how elections are addressed in the constitution to make this determination. Mail-in ballots and the like don't seem to be unconstitutional, but maybe some things can be seen that way. The main point I would make is that Trump did not focus on this. He was talking about ballots being thrown in rivers, about millions of illegals voting, voters being carried around in buses to vote illegally in different states, dead people voting, fraudulent election workers taking in fake ballots, corrupt state secretaries being in on it, corrupt judges affirming the fraudulent results, mysterious votes appearing, these kind of things. Not so much 'changes in election protocol', which putting all maybe legitimate critizisms aside still did not lead to a credible and provable case of actual wide-spread and systematic voter fraud taking place.

Of course not to mention that being dissatisfied with election protocol does not justify one bit to storm the capitol, or run fake elector schemes, or pressuring state secretaries to find the exact number of votes to overthrow the result.

PS I always agreed with conservatives on things like the voter ID issue, so it's not like I see your system as perfectly legit in the first place. It's just, you have to back up voter fraud claims nonetheless or else you have no business making such claims.

I agree.

It is an oversight that needs addressed.

It is part of a follow up of any event to improve on the next, if it were ever to occur. There might have been ground to contest voting or whatever, but not arguing it. My issue is that it was never addressed and rectified, because it was a mess and very questionable.

[hollodero]

(06-12-2024, 08:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Absolutely. People who entered the capital had no right being there. When they entered, there were some bad hombres in that crowd. But also recognize, there where probably a lot of idiots also who just thought it would be cool to storm the capital (without intent of harming anyone). You can see that in the videos. People were walking through the halls and lobbies. Not running, not destroying stuff etc. Some did, but not most. 

It sure might be feasible to lay more blame on some actors than others, imho that's for the courts to decide, not me. I feel this is getting too much into detail though, I'd rather focus on the overall picture than to determine how many people deserve how much blame, which I can't possibly determine. No one entering Congress is blameless, that is the stance I would commit to. Which makes it so hard to accept for me how Trump to this day calls them patriots and heroes and states how much he loves them.

(06-12-2024, 08:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I do feel Trump has some responsibility.  But the left and the LWM put it all on his back. It's not all his fault. But if we make it his fault, hopefully we make him unelectable.

It's hard for me to actually say something about this. I would have hoped that events like this make him unelectable, but apparently they did not.

(06-12-2024, 08:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: That has been the goal of the left since he was elected and before he was sworn into office, and I don't think that's to far fetched to swallow. His first 4 years was nothing but attacks. 

No, I swallow that with ease, it's true. I for one sure think that most (certainly not all) of these attacks were justified, so my perspective sure is tilted differently than yours. But yeah, he faced intense adversary from the start.

(06-12-2024, 08:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Trumps problem is he's smart, but also an idiot. He is a narcissistic moron and doesn't know how to communicate properly. He's not a politician. He doesn't know how to hide it like the others do. He lies, but I don't know of any politicians who don't that want to get elected.  

Yeah, I know many that would stop at a certain point though.

(06-12-2024, 08:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Man, it really sucks we don't have better options, but I think both parties and the media are equally responsible for how we got here.

I can not quite commit to "equally", but that rather is a detail than the main point. I agree with your overall sentiment. Wholeheartedly. Both parties are to blame, the media is to blame, the whole election system is to blame. And also, imho all the people who rather put their preferred shitty option in the greatest light possible by spins, false equivalencies, whataboutism etc etc instead of focusing on the one thing that most Americans would agree on, which is that both options are shitty, share some blame as well. But that is tricky for me to say since I myself are quite often guilty of this behaviour too.

[*pally*]

(06-12-2024, 08:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Absolutely. People who entered the capital had no right being there. When they entered, there were some bad hombres in that crowd. But also recognize, there where probably a lot of idiots also who just thought it would be cool to storm the capital (without intent of harming anyone). You can see that in the videos. People were walking through the halls and lobbies. Not running, not destroying stuff etc. Some did, but not most. 

I do feel Trump has some responsibility.  But the left and the LWM put it all on his back. It's not all his fault. But if we make it his fault, hopefully we make him unelectable. That has been the goal of the left since he was elected and before he was sworn into office, and I don't think that's to far fetched to swallow. His first 4 years was nothing but attacks. 

Trumps problem is he's smart, but also an idiot. He is a narcissistic moron and doesn't know how to communicate properly. He's not a politician. He doesn't know how to hide it like the others do. He lies, but I don't know of any politicians who don't that want to get elected.  

Man, it really sucks we don't have better options, but I think both parties and the media are equally responsible for how we got here.

do you think Jan 6 would have happened if Trump had just shut up and conceded instead of stoking the flames with his incessencent lies?  If he had never held that "rally" to protest the vote? If that speech had said, "we fought a hard as we could, it wasn't enough"  instead of encouraging people to "fight like hell"?

Yeah, people ultimately made their own choices but Trump spent a lot of time, enery, and money providnig them with fertile ground to grow their grievances

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-12-2024, 05:28 PM)pally Wrote: To be fair, anyone in that crowd in Washington on Jan 6, knew very well these groups were among them.  It wasn't a secret.  They publically supported Trump who only demounced it once when forced with his message sending "stand down and stand ready"

I've no political dog in the Jan 6th race other than wanting the people who entered the building seeing their day in court and going to jail if found guilty.... but I am curious to where this "if you're part of a crowd/protest where bad people are mixed in, you're now one with those people" energy from you was during the Summer riots where large amounts of totally legitimate protestors knew that among them were smaller groups of arsonists, anarchists, violent gangs, and robbery rings but still showed up to protest.

Are you on team collective guilt for all based off the actions and beliefs of the minority bad actors for gatherings regardless of what the gathering is for, or is that belief just for the gatherings that don't vote the way you do?

[NATI BENGALS]

(06-12-2024, 10:32 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I've no political dog in the Jan 6th race other than wanting the people who entered the building seeing their day in court and going to jail if found guilty.... but I am curious to where this "if you're part of a crowd/protest where bad people are mixed in, you're now one with those people" energy from you was during the Summer riots where large amounts of totally legitimate protestors knew that among them were smaller groups of arsonists, anarchists, violent gangs, and robbery rings but still showed up to protest.

Are you on team collective guilt for all based off the actions and beliefs of the minority bad actors for gatherings regardless of what the gathering is for, or is that belief just for the gatherings that don't vote the way you do?

What was the goal of Jan 6?
And what was the goal of the protests after Floyd’s death?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-12-2024, 10:37 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: What was the goal of Jan 6?
And what was the goal of the protests after Floyd’s death?

For the majority of people at both? To peacefully organize a protest to make their voices be heard in a Constitutionally protected manner.

Once you start breaking it down further than that, you start deciding both who and what ideas/thoughts are allowed and it's a bad road to head down. Said the same in the thread about the college Gaza protests. I don't agree with them and I think those kids are largely dumb as hell and probably at least a little anti-Semitic, but you can't just ban people from protesting because you don't like them or because other smaller groups of people mixed in with bad intentions.

You can absolutely intervene to stop the violence and get things back to a peaceful state when they stop being peaceful, but either we all get free speech or there's no such thing as free speech. That's the downside of the protected freedoms we have, but it's a downside worth paying when looking at the alternative.