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(11-25-2019, 04:08 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: As you know the court martial involved a murder case, not just posing with a dead body. A charge such as murder will only involve trial by court martial, not NJP.
Also, the rules are the rules whether you agree with them or not. If you don’t follow the rules you can be charged with disobeying a lawful order at a minimum which is no-no especially for senior NCOs.
Service members in SOCOM units can be kicked out at any time for not upholding unit standards. I’ve seen guys kicked out of the Ranger Regiment for stuff that didn’t even involve UCMJ action and the president never stepped in. Trump’s involvement in the SEALs deciding who will/won’t be a unit member is gross micromanagement. Plus he’s politicizing a military discipline matter while ignoring advice from senior SEAL commanders and the Secretary of the Navy who know a helluva lot more than he does.
You are right. It's not about "posing with a corpse." It's about discipline, good order, and the special accountability of people responsible for upholding them. In public cases like this it's also about what the US stands for, as "leading" coalition member in Iraq--and post-Abu Ghraib. The reason we left Iraq was precisely because the US would not accept any SOFA agreement which could place US military in Iraqi courts, like rule of law was not to be entrusted to others.
Also, the actions of someone wearing the uniform are not like the actions of a private citizen. E.g., a crazed Bengals fan pours beer on the Ravens fan at a game, and then punches him when he turns around, is just a private individual acting up whose actions will have individual consequences. So different if someone wearing a Navy uniform does that, bringing the service into disrepute.
I'm especially disturbed about the disruption of process here. That makes it hard for officers and NCOs to know what's really expected of them--not to mention troops on the ground. Cross the line or not? Report it or not? Couple that with the aforementioned rash of pardons for those accused and/or convicted of war crimes. Seems like a deliberate message sent to Trump's base, to the military, and to the world, and a very confusing one for the latter two recipients. Outsiders looking in could be forgiven for getting the impression that Trump is pardoning Gallagher (and others) precisely BECAUSE they crossed the line to threaten/kill civilians and prisoners.
I also wonder if we are seeing a split in the military now, parallel with that in our national politics, with some military members applauding the pardons and (Hannity-style) defining military leaders who push back against Trump's impulse-over-process style as the ones who are "really" the threat to good order. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/editorials/2019/11/24/president-must-have-final-say-opposing-view/4293598002/. Is this limited to at tiny minority of enlisted? To special forces? Something to watch, in any case.
We see how the C-in-C sets the tone. The coming election really is about who we are as a country.
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(11-25-2019, 04:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I just don't agree with ending a man's career because he posed with a corpse. Should every such case result in a court martial?
Educate yourself a little more on what happened. There were a lot of Marines in the photo that did not face a court martial. Gallagher was punished because he as the leader and allowed the breech of rules.
You keep saying you disagree, but at the same time you agree it was against he rules. Seems like you are bending over backwards just to defend Trump's actions.
They did nto kick him out of the service. In the military a leader who allows rules to be broken should not be a leader. Simple as that.
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(11-25-2019, 04:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Of course.
Also, of course. But would you not agree that within that frame there is a lot of latitude. A reduction in rank is a career ender. That seems excessive to me for posing with a corpse.
I agree with everything you said here. I don't like Trump intervening in this. My only issue is the punishment seeming excessive and a shot at him because the murder case fell apart. I just don't agree with ending a man's career because he posed with a corpse. Should every such case result in a court martial? I would hope not and still acknowledge that this specific case is an outlier in this regard.
I lost one rank, forfeited one month’s pay, and received 14 days of extra duty and restriction via NJP for going to Juarez, Mexico. So I don’t consider Gallagher’s punishment excessive.
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(11-25-2019, 07:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Educate yourself a little more on what happened. There were a lot of Marines in the photo that did not face a court martial. Gallagher was punished because he as the leader and allowed the breech of rules.
You keep saying you disagree, but at the same time you agree it was against he rules. Seems like you are bending over backwards just to defend Trump's actions.
They did nto kick him out of the service. In the military a leader who allows rules to be broken should not be a leader. Simple as that.
Perhaps we could have more civil discourse if we didn't always do this. I don't agree with Trump's actions in this case. I also disagree with his withdraw from Syria, comments about the judiciary, reaction to the impeachment hearing, Comments about McCain.... Does that mean I bend over backwards to disagree with Trump's actions? Because it's well known I'm an blind Trump supporter.
Perhaps some folks can agree/disagree with a move made by POTUS and not be so easily categorized and automatically placed in a "us versus them" situation. I've also said in the thread that I didn't necessarily agree with the findings in the Lorance case. Does the fact that I question the Lorance court findings while totally supporting the Gallagher findings make me a Trump supporter or hater?
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Trump should pardon Melanie and let her go free.
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If Trump isn’t listening to advice from the Secretary of the Navy related to naval affairs then it makes you wonder who he is taking advice from.
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(11-26-2019, 01:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If Trump isn’t listening to advice from the Secretary of the Navy related to naval affairs then it makes you wonder who he is taking advice from.
Same guy he said he would. And people still voted for him.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/mar/17/donald-trump-i-consult-myself-on-foreign-policy-be/
Quote:Donald Trump: I consult myself on foreign policy, 'because I have a very good brain'
Likely GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump said Wednesday that he consults with himself on issues like foreign policy because he has “a very good brain.”
Asked on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” who he talks with “consistently” about foreign affairs, Mr. Trump responded,
“I’m speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain and I’ve said a lot of things,” Politico reported.
The mogul pointed to his 2000 book, “The America We Deserve,” where he made a reference to Osama bin Laden before the 9/11 terrorist attacks.
“I know what I’m doing, and I listen to a lot of people, I talk to a lot of people, and at the appropriate time I’ll tell you who the people are,” Mr. Trump said Wednesday. “But I speak to a lot of people, but my primary consultant is myself, and I have a good instinct for this stuff.”
Asked whether his foreign policy could be considered “neoisolationist,” Mr. Trump responded, “I wouldn’t say that at all.”
He went on to explain that he “would consult with the best people” before launching an attack on the Islamic State terrorist group.
“I would much prefer getting some of the other nations of our world involved and let them do something for a change,” he said.
Mr. Trump has kept mum on his foreign policy team, despite promising in early February to release a list of his advisers in “about two weeks,” Politico reported.
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Seems like a nice guy. 
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
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Those convicting Lorance may want to check out this documentary:
https://www.starz.com/us/en/series/45100/episodes?season=1
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Well then.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
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