Quarterbacks' quicker releases a product of subpar protection

[Bengalholic]

There has been a lot of debate in the past about whether Dalton's quick release and how it translates to the O-line. Does AD's quick release make the line look better than it really is? Is the quick release a necessity to cover shortcomings with the line?

Here's an article that touches on that topic on a league wide basis.

Andy had the fastest average release time in the NFL this year at 2.20.

[Essex Johnson]

(02-22-2016, 12:57 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: There has been a lot of debate in the past about whether Dalton's quick release and how it translates to the O-line. Does AD's quick release make the line look better than it really is? Is the quick release a necessity to cover shortcomings with the line?

Here's an article that touches on that topic on a league wide basis.

Andy had the fastest average release time in the NFL this year at 2.20.

The problem with that question is all teams seem to be going to a quick release point.. some QBs might be better than others, but you could ask that same question for about every team in this era.    Andy is just a bit better than other QBs at the release time..

[Bengalholic]

(02-22-2016, 01:18 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: The problem with that question is all teams seem to be going to a quick release point.. some QBs might be better than others, but you could ask that same question for about every team in this era.    Andy is just a bit better than other QBs at the release time..

You could ask the question of just about every team. It's the answer that I'm interested in. Is it because (as the title of the article states) of subpar pass protection...or is it just the way offenses are now being built? Is the Bengals O-line really as good as the stats seem to indicate (as far as the pass pro) or is Andy's incredibly quick release making them appear to be better than they really are? 

[fredtoast]

I think released time is overrateed. If a QB scrambles aroun d for a few seconds instead of throwing it away then he is going to drive his average release time way up. And we are talking about a difference of measured in fractions of seconds. So it is possible for a QB to be quicker getting rid of the ball on straight passing plays, but his average looks longer because he scrambles a few times instead of just throwing the ball away.

I wish I could see the numbers that exclude scrambles, but I don't see how that is possible.

[fredtoast]

Another point about the O-line.

Dalton gets rid of the ball quickly, but it isn't like he is getting hit a lot just as he gets rid of it.  He usually has decent protection even when he gets rid of the ball quickly.

Dalton got rid of the ball in 2.2 sec, but 19 other QBs got rid of it in 2.5 or less.  Three tenths of a second is not a lot of "extra time" to make a throw if defenders are on top of you.  The fact is Dalton generally had a clean pocket.  He got rid of the ball quickly because that was the design of the play, not because he was desperate.

If Dalton held on to the ball too long, like mcCarron seemed to at times, then we would have given up more sacks.  But I blame those more on the QB than the pass blocking.  NFL defenders are going to get to the QB.  As the defensive backs have become more limited teams have been emphasizing getting pressure on the QB to slow the passing game.

[*wildcats forever*]

(02-22-2016, 01:29 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: You could ask the question of just about every team. It's the answer that I'm interested in. Is it because (as the title of the article states) of subpar pass protection...or is it just the way offenses are now being built? Is the Bengals O-line really as good as the stats seem to indicate (as far as the pass pro) or is Andy's incredibly quick release making them appear to be better than they really are? 

How about the quick release being a direct response to improved defensive lines these QB's are now facing? We've seen some quick and athletic lines in recent years that give OLines fits, ours being one at times. The OLine only has to be so good, meaning not great, when the ball comes out that quickly.

[*Go Cards*]

The O-line did well on pass protection. Like was stated earlier, it's not like he got hit a bunch upon release.

But could not run block very well at all. This needs to be fixed.

Andy has a quick release and quick mind though. He is part of the equation that puts him above others in this statistic.

[Shake n Blake]

RRL is going to love this thread.

[Shake n Blake]

Where did Macaroni rank in release time?

That'd really help with this discussion. Obviously McCarron was sacked at a much higher rate than Dalton. I've seen some say that this happened because McCarron held the ball way too long. I don't doubt that this was part of the problem, but seeing where McCarron ranked would go a long way towards answering that question and some others.

If McCarron's release time was average, then you'd have to look at the o-line as a problem.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(02-22-2016, 02:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: RRL is going to love this thread.  

It's a case by case issue. Watching the OL there were very few actual issues in pass pro. Andre's injuries are catching up but he was still above average. Bodine is still the clear and obvious weak link. 

Our quick passes are designed because that's how Dalton works best. Getting his pre-snap read in and going. Get it into the hands of your playmakers fast. 
Andrew Whitworth proved before Dalton was here, he can pass block. 
So did Andre. 

Nothing about Zeitler or Boling says they would begin to struggle. 

I think part of the problem is people have a weird sense of how long people actually have to throw and how long plays should take. 

(02-22-2016, 02:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Where did Macaroni rank in release time?

That'd really help with this discussion. Obviously McCarron was sacked at a much higher rate than Dalton. I've seen some say that this happened because McCarron held the ball way too long. I don't doubt that this was part of the problem, but seeing where McCarron ranked would go a long way towards answering that question and some others.

If McCarron's release time was average, then you'd have to look at the o-line as a problem.

Yes and no. If the play is DESIGNED to be a quick play the OL takes different moves to set it up rather than a 5 or 7 step drop. So if it's a quick hit play, the OL takes a shorter set to then get moving down field to the second level and the QB holds it, that's not an OL problem. 

[Froob]

Oline did good pass protecting overall. Run blocking is where we should really be concerned..

Imo, pass blocking is too easy for NFL lineman (whether it be due to the skills of the QB or lack thereof). Oline should mostly be judged by run blocking.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(02-22-2016, 02:27 PM)Froob Wrote: Oline did good pass protecting overall. Run blocking is where we should really be concerned..

Imo, pass blocking is too easy for NFL lineman (whether it be due to the skills of the QB or lack thereof). Oline should mostly be judged by run blocking.

[*bfine32*]

Does anybody know exactly how fast 2/10 of a second is?

A blink is about 3/10

[BengalChris]

(02-22-2016, 12:57 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: There has been a lot of debate in the past about whether Dalton's quick release and how it translates to the O-line. Does AD's quick release make the line look better than it really is? Is the quick release a necessity to cover shortcomings with the line?

Here's an article that touches on that topic on a league wide basis.

Andy had the fastest average release time in the NFL this year at 2.20.

The answer is probably YES, in my opinion. Unfortunately, it didn't help our pitiful run blocking in 2015.

Another thing that might go into the release time is the QB being certain about where he's going with the ball and the receivers getting open. A hesitant QB just isn't going to have a quick release time.

[BigPapaKain]

Does Andy's quick release make the offensive line look better? Absolutely.

It's almost like it's the symbiotic relationship of being on a team.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-22-2016, 02:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Does anybody know exactly how fast 2/10 of a second is?

A blink is about 3/10

In fairness, while it isn't a huge amount of time without context, think about this.

The difference in speed between Tyler Eifert's 40 time and Rey Maualuga's 40 time? 0.26 seconds
The difference in speed between AJ Green's 40 time and Jermaine Gresham's 40 time? 0.16 seconds

In a sport where pretty much everyone is an amazing athlete, there's generally not a huge margin of difference between dominance and failure, but when it's on the field, that 0.20 seconds can end up looking pretty darn bad. (I know we're talking the lines, not skill players, but still.) It only takes being behind one step in order to get toasted for a TD/Sack. Could be the difference between a player getting around the edge to beat the blocker, or getting stonewalled.

[Aquapod770]

Why not measure actual release times? I realize it would be incredibly time consuming, but it could be done.

[Bengalfan11164]

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&tabSeq=2&season=2015&akmobile=ios-tablet&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&akcarrier=other&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=false

Dalton had the quickest release, mccarron was " hit more" than dalton, Tom Brady was 2nd.

Bengal qbs were hit least in the nfl.
Brady was hit about 40 times more than Bengal qbs.

Against the Broncos, our offensive line was pretty good.

Though bodine has issues with a bull rush and alternating,y, our guards have to help to compensate for bodine 's issues, the bengals are well above average in pass protection.

The folks that say otherwise are lobbying for yet another early round oline pick.

[Atomic Orange]

I think our O'line is overrated and our QB is underrated.

The line is good for PP but they can't open up lanes for shit.

[RASCAL]

(02-22-2016, 12:57 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: There has been a lot of debate in the past about whether Dalton's quick release and how it translates to the O-line. Does AD's quick release make the line look better than it really is? Is the quick release a necessity to cover shortcomings with the line?

Here's an article that touches on that topic on a league wide basis.

Andy had the fastest average release time in the NFL this year at 2.20.

as long as the scheme works and the receivers are open, who cares?