Question For Pro-Choice People

[BFritz21]

People that say it's ok for a woman to have an abortion because it's her choice and her body, so you have no problem with a woman drinking heavily during pregnancy, even though alcohol can seriously affect the unborn child's development, particularly its brain? It also causes other birth defects.

You think it's ok to smoke during pregnancy, even though smoking can cause preterm birth (which can cause problems), low birth weight, and other health problems?

Drugs are illegal, so that's a little more complicated argument, but a woman can do drugs since it's her body and you're ok with the baby being born addicted to drugs?

There are many other things a woman can do to harm an unborn baby during pregnancy, but you think it's ok because it's her body?

[hollodero]

(05-13-2019, 02:57 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: There are many other things a woman can do to harm an unborn baby during pregnancy, but you think it's ok because it's her body?

I don't think these things are ok. Do you think they should be illegal?

[Belsnickel]

It's not right in my view, but it shouldn't be illegal. Abortion isn't right in my view, but it shouldn't be illegal.

[*Nately120*]

I'm not even ok with men drinking/smoking etc when the woman they knocked up is pregnant.  That's not fair.

[BFritz21]

(05-13-2019, 05:54 AM)hollodero Wrote: I don't think these things are ok. Do you think they should be illegal?

(05-13-2019, 08:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: It's not right in my view, but it shouldn't be illegal. Abortion isn't right in my view, but it shouldn't be illegal.

I'm not talking about legality, I'm asking if you think it's ok to do since it's her body.

[Belsnickel]

(05-13-2019, 10:42 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I'm not talking about legality, I'm asking if you think it's ok to do since it's her body.

And I answered that question, as well.

[Dill]

(05-13-2019, 02:57 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: People that say it's ok for a woman to have an abortion because it's her choice and her body, so you have no problem with a woman drinking heavily during pregnancy, even though alcohol can seriously affect the unborn child's development, particularly its brain?  It also causes other birth defects.

You think it's ok to smoke during pregnancy, even though smoking can cause preterm birth (which can cause problems), low birth weight, and other health problems?

Drugs are illegal, so that's a little more complicated argument, but a woman can do drugs since it's her body and you're ok with the baby being born addicted to drugs?

There are many other things a woman can do to harm an unborn baby during pregnancy, but you think it's ok because it's her body?

Sure I'm ok with all that.

What else could pro choice mean?

[*bfine32*]

Drinking Heavily... How ya think they got pregnant in the first place?

But as most have said; It's not my call.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 02:57 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: People that say it's ok for a woman to have an abortion because it's her choice and her body, so you have no problem with a woman drinking heavily during pregnancy, even though alcohol can seriously affect the unborn child's development, particularly its brain? It also causes other birth defects.

You think it's ok to smoke during pregnancy, even though smoking can cause preterm birth (which can cause problems), low birth weight, and other health problems?

Drugs are illegal, so that's a little more complicated argument, but a woman can do drugs since it's her body and you're ok with the baby being born addicted to drugs?

There are many other things a woman can do to harm an unborn baby during pregnancy, but you think it's ok because it's her body?

How do you feel about men and women drinking when they aren't pregnant knowing alcohol consumption adversely affects fertility and the gametes?

Or what about pregnant women taking any prescription medication which isn't a category A?

[fredtoast]

Simple answer.

You can punish a woman for any damage she does (or reckless behavior that could cause damage) to a child that is carried beyond the second trimester.

[CKwi88]

Oh hey, this thread again.

How many people around here have said that abortions are "OK"?

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2019, 08:30 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: It's not right in my view, but it shouldn't be illegal. 

Yes it should.

Over the last couple of years I have been doing a lot more work in juvenile court.  I deal with a lot of cases of babies born with NAS (Neonatal Addiction Syndrome).  It is a horror show, and often disables the child for life.

[Belsnickel]

(05-13-2019, 01:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes it should.

Over the last couple of years I have been doing a lot more work in juvenile court.  I deal with a lot of cases of babies born with NAS (Neonatal Addiction Syndrome).  It is a horror show, and often disables the child for life.

While I understand your point, having seen the effects of NAS as well, I can't agree. My pro-choice position stems from a belief in individual liberty and the rights of an expecting mother superseding those of the unborn. To hold that position and advocate for policies making it illegal to drink or smoke during pregnancy would be contradictory.

The situation is a shitty one, there is no doubt about that. However, what does making it illegal do other than restrict individual freedoms? It won't stop the behavior. Access to healthcare, treatment, stability, etc. are all things that are necessary to combat these sorts of tragedies. When we criminalize the behavior, we lower the likelihood that those afflicted will seek the help they so desperately need.

[*bfine32*]

(05-13-2019, 01:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I understand your point, having seen the effects of NAS as well, I can't agree. My pro-choice position stems from a belief in individual liberty and the rights of an expecting mother superseding those of the unborn. To hold that position and advocate for policies making it illegal to drink or smoke during pregnancy would be contradictory.

The situation is a shitty one, there is no doubt about that. However, what does making it illegal do other than restrict individual freedoms? It won't stop the behavior. Access to healthcare, treatment, stability, etc. are all things that are necessary to combat these sorts of tragedies. When we criminalize the behavior, we lower the likelihood that those afflicted will seek the help they so desperately need.

I will say Fred's position is consistent as long as he thinks it should be illegal to have an abortion after the 2nd trimester.  Hell he even called it a child. 

[Belsnickel]

(05-13-2019, 01:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I will say Fred's position is consistent as long as he thinks it should be illegal to have an abortion after the 2nd trimester.  Hell he even called it a child. 

The issue with that is that the damage done during the first two trimesters is significantly more than the third. If a woman does drugs during the first trimester, but doesn't continue, then by Fred's position they would not be liable for damage done. However, the damage would be more significant than a woman who did the same amount of drugs only in the third semester.

[*bfine32*]

(05-13-2019, 01:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The issue with that is that the damage done during the first two trimesters is significantly more than the third. If a woman does drugs during the first trimester, but doesn't continue, then by Fred's position they would not be liable for damage done. However, the damage would be more significant than a woman who did the same amount of drugs only in the third semester.

Hell, I'd be the last one to say he's right; I simply stated it's consistent provided his stance on abortions after the 2nd trimester. 

[CJD]

This question implies that Pro Choice advocates think abortion is "ok."

But without an explicit definition of what "ok" means it's kind of difficult to answer this question.

Do I think it's a good idea for women to smoke and drink during pregnancy? No.
Do I think it's moral to smoke and drink during pregnancy? No.
Do I think women should be imprisoned and potentially put to death for smoking or drinking during pregnancy? No.

There's often a conflation between "Pro-choice" and "Pro-abortion." Many Pro Choice people would never advocate or even fathom having an abortion. But making abortions illegal is just a way to control women, their rights and their bodies, which is an inherently incongruous way of treating people (as there is no way to apply similar rules or laws onto men). Especially if abortions begin being equated to murder from a legal perspective...

So I guess my answer would be "It's not okay, but it shouldn't be made punishable by the legal system either."

[*Nately120*]

What are we supposed to do if we see a pregnant woman drinking or smoking? If we are pro choice I guess we give her a thumbs up and tell her to commit to the process?

[jj22]

Just because you believe it is someone's right to do what they choose, doesn't mean you have to agree with it (do we agree with everything our grown kids do even though we raised them differently? No. But we accept their right to make their own decisions and live by any consequences.

God granted us free will. His greatest gift.

Who are we to take that away from people?

Just because people are pro choice, doesn't mean they'd do it themselves if in the situation.

It just means we aren't in the business of telling people what to do and or making people do what you think is right (or deciding which sins is worse than others ie: Abortion is bad, but cheating on multiple wives, and paying off porn stars is fine).

It's really as simple as your business is your business.

[*Nately120*]

(05-13-2019, 04:35 PM)jj22 Wrote: Just because you believe it is someone's right to do what they want, doesn't mean you have to agree with it (don't we sometimes tell our grown kids that).

God granted us free will. His greatest gift.

Who are we to take that away from people?

Taking free-will away from the people and convincing them it is "for the best" is pretty much the job of the most popular political parties we have.  Am I missing something here?  Based on our voting record, we want to have our free will limited by the government.

Anyways, if booze and smokes are bad for the viability of a fetus I'm starting to think the pro-life movement is really being controlled by booze, tobacco, and drug companies who want women to have to load themselves up with their products in order to self-abort.  I'm cynical, but I'm starting to convince myself of this.