Questions about Gender Dysphoria

[*PhilHos*]

Okay, so when it comes to gender, there are no longer any traditional roles or qualities. Women can be tough, can be the bread winners in a family, be into cars, porno, etc. and men can cry and be sensitive, like fashion, etc. Correct?

Basically, outside of childbirth and breastfeeding, there's nothing one can say or do anymore that society says is strictly a man's role or a woman's role, correct?

If this is true (and I'm not saying it isn't), then why is there still such a thing as gender dysphoria? If society says that their are no longer gender-specific roles or characteristics, then how can I ever say "I'm a woman" though I've got a penis? How can one claim to feel like a woman if there is no one "right" way to feel like a woman or vice versa?

Just to be clear: I'm not trying to make a point. I'm genuinely curious as to how society can say that men and women are NOT different other than reproductive organs and then say that if you're born with a vagina, it's okay to say you're a man?

I've got an open mind and would like to find an answer.

Thanks.

[Benton]

(12-03-2015, 04:21 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Okay, so when it comes to gender, there are no longer any traditional roles or qualities. Women can be tough, can be the bread winners in a family, be into cars, porno, etc. and men can cry and be sensitive, like fashion, etc. Correct?

Basically, outside of childbirth and breastfeeding, there's nothing one can say or do anymore that society says is strictly a man's role or a woman's role, correct?

If this is true (and I'm not saying it isn't), then why is there still such a thing as gender dysphoria? If society says that their are no longer gender-specific roles or characteristics, then how can I ever say "I'm a woman" though I've got a penis? How can one claim to feel like a woman if there is no one "right" way to feel like a woman or vice versa?

Just to be clear: I'm not trying to make a point. I'm genuinely curious as to how society can say that men and women are NOT different other than reproductive organs and then say that if you're born with a vagina, it's okay to say you're a man?

I've got an open mind and would like to find an answer.

Thans.

Good topic.

Personally, I think the issue here is what a person defines as society. Not to make this into a Clinton deposition, but that definition gives you very different answers.

I'm from the rural south. I live here. Most of the people I know still live here. If you are talking about a small sliver of society (say, the town I live in or really even the geographic area it encompasses for a hundred or two hundred miles), then gender roles aren't out the window. And if you as a guy show up at the Friday night high school football game in a sequined gown because it makes you feel "right" then you'll probably get kicked out. Which may not be the case if you live in a more metropolitan area or another part of the country.  

So, if you're from that area, your society has dictated pretty well what your gender role is to be. So feeling "right" would come from your society's perception of that role.

For an example, I know a guy who I went to high school with. He was gay and comfortable telling people that. What he wasn't comfortable telling people was he identified as a woman. He went off for a few years and came back to the general area to work at a college. He feels more comfortable wearing jewelry and makeup to work now, but he wouldn't have done it 20 years ago in the same rural area. And, to add, he's still got all his parts, he doesn't wear dresses. He just — for whatever reason — identifies with some of the more feminine aspects. But his gender role is still defined by the area he grew up and now lives in.

[*PhilHos*]

(12-03-2015, 04:48 PM)Benton Wrote: Good topic.

Personally, I think the issue here is what a person defines as society. Not to make this into a Clinton deposition, but that definition gives you very different answers.

I'm from the rural south. I live here. Most of the people I know still live here. If you are talking about a small sliver of society (say, the town I live in or really even the geographic area it encompasses for a hundred or two hundred miles), then gender roles aren't out the window. And if you as a guy show up at the Friday night high school football game in a sequined gown because it makes you feel "right" then you'll probably get kicked out. Which may not be the case if you live in a more metropolitan area or another part of the country.  

So, if you're from that area, your society has dictated pretty well what your gender role is to be. So feeling "right" would come from your society's perception of that role.

For an example, I know a guy who I went to high school with. He was gay and comfortable telling people that. What he wasn't comfortable telling people was he identified as a woman. He went off for a few years and came back to the general area to work at a college. He feels more comfortable wearing jewelry and makeup to work now, but he wouldn't have done it 20 years ago in the same rural area. And, to add, he's still got all his parts, he doesn't wear dresses. He just — for whatever reason — identifies with some of the more feminine aspects. But his gender role is still defined by the area he grew up and now lives in.

Thanks for your input. 

I get what you're saying and agree with you. But, I'm thinking more in the lines of what our society as a whole (i.e the whole country) believes to be "right". For example, say there's a township that still doesn't let anyone but white people serve in public office. Well, if that became national news, pretty much everyone would be agreed that that's wrong.

Honestly, my thinking right now is that society is WRONG and that there ARE male- and female-specific emotional and psychological roles characteristics and by saying there aren't they are actually de-legitimizing gender dysphoria.

[Belsnickel]

The simplest answer is that as much as we break down gender roles, gender is still something that is typically listed officially as a binary with clearly defined lines. It is viewed synonymously with sex more than not at present.

What Benton said is all very true as well, though. But I'd like to add that gender dysphoria is not just identifying as a gender other than your biological sex. It is the distress involved in this identification. The disorder is more about the anxiety, depression, stress, etc., that can come about from coping with the situation and/or trying to navigate the world with the feeling of rejection, whether real or imagined. We may see society as progressing on this issue, but we are not very far along in all reality, and so trying to cope with it all can be a huge struggle.

[Benton]

(12-03-2015, 05:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Thanks for your input. 

I get what you're saying and agree with you. But, I'm thinking more in the lines of what our society as a whole (i.e the whole country) believes to be "right". For example, say there's a township that still doesn't let anyone but white people serve in public office. Well, if that became national news, pretty much everyone would be agreed that that's wrong.

Honestly, my thinking right now is that society is WRONG and that there ARE male- and female-specific emotional and psychological roles characteristics and by saying there aren't they are actually de-legitimizing gender dysphoria.

Understood. And I won't belabor the point, but I guess the issue for me is the whole country doesn't believe anything. That's not how we're made up, whether you're talking about political candidates, foreign vs domestic cars, etc. Look at gay marriage. According to Gallup, there's still only 58% that think gay marriages should have the same marriage rights. That's not an overwhelming majority.





I do tend to think you're correct, to a degree. A lot of our sexuality is learned behavior. My daughter used to love super heroes. Probably because I'm a nerd. Then she went to gymnastics one night and one of the other girls made fun of her Spiderman socks with "I didn't know they made those in girls." After that, she didn't want to read comics or watch superhero shows.

But there's some of it that's just naturally part of being male or female, mostly due to hormones. Testosterone (what gives you a stache and junk) makes you more aggressive. Estrogen has some significant, proven links to depression and emotions. A lot of male and female traits are really just byproducts of hormones.

Personally, I think that's one reason some people seem to have some major change when they're 40-60. That's when your hormones undergo some big changes. And it seems like that's when a lot of men and women decide to change their sexuality or take on some uncharacteristic behavior. I think a lot of that is hormonal. But I'm no scientist.

[Vas Deferens]

(12-03-2015, 05:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The simplest answer is that as much as we break down gender roles, gender is still something that is typically listed officially as a binary with clearly defined lines. It is viewed synonymously with sex more than not at present.

What Benton said is all very true as well, though. But I'd like to add that gender dysphoria is not just identifying as a gender other than your biological sex. It is the distress involved in this identification. The disorder is more about the anxiety, depression, stress, etc., that can come about from coping with the situation and/or trying to navigate the world with the feeling of rejection, whether real or imagined. We may see society as progressing on this issue, but we are not very far along in all reality, and so trying to cope with it all can be a huge struggle.

I don't have a lot to say on the issue, only that I've seen a few people struggle with it one being a pretty close friend of many years.  He was always a pretty masculine individual, but you could tell it was really tough for him that others didnt identify him as a male (was still female at the time.)

I'm not sure we'll have a really clear view of the causes in my lifetime and doubt the social stigmatism will make much progress either.  Like benton, I'm not a scientist.  Even if they did figure it out, I wouldn't be able to understand half of it at this point.  What I do know is that unless you are in that position, passing judgement on someone in that position (as a few people here have shown a proclivity towards), is one of the cruelest things a person can do.  The internal struggle alone seems like hell enough to me, others shouldn't be making things worse on them.

A lot of the societal pressure and animus towards people in this position is merely a self preservation tactic against something they don't understand.  I get that.  But why we can't just let people be is beyond me.  If someone's gender / sexuality makes you feel uncomfortable, walk away.  That easy.  

[*michaelsean*]

I never understand if they identify with the opposite sex, or with what is the current norm for the opposite sex. Like if men wore dresses and makeup, would a male with gender dysphoria identify as a man?

[*bfine32*]

All the possibilities are enough to hurt your head.

The one that perplexed me the most was when Jenner came out as a woman; yet said she still liked to have sex with women. Does that make her gay or straight?

[StLucieBengal]

(12-03-2015, 05:33 PM)Benton Wrote: Understood. And I won't belabor the point, but I guess the issue for me is the whole country doesn't believe anything. That's not how we're made up, whether you're talking about political candidates, foreign vs domestic cars, etc. Look at gay marriage. According to Gallup, there's still only 58% that think gay marriages should have the same marriage rights. That's not an overwhelming majority.





I do tend to think you're correct, to a degree. A lot of our sexuality is learned behavior. My daughter used to love super heroes. Probably because I'm a nerd. Then she went to gymnastics one night and one of the other girls made fun of her Spiderman socks with "I didn't know they made those in girls." After that, she didn't want to read comics or watch superhero shows.

But there's some of it that's just naturally part of being male or female, mostly due to hormones. Testosterone (what gives you a stache and junk) makes you more aggressive. Estrogen has some significant, proven links to depression and emotions. A lot of male and female traits are really just byproducts of hormones.

Personally, I think that's one reason some people seem to have some major change when they're 40-60. That's when your hormones undergo some big changes. And it seems like that's when a lot of men and women decide to change their sexuality or take on some uncharacteristic behavior. I think a lot of that is hormonal. But I'm no scientist.

I agree with this... We seem to be on a similar page on this matter.

Still think there is a mental health/chemical situation going on with these cases. It has to be if you look at this just from nature's perspective. Now whether that is viewed positively or negatively is up to any person to decide. I think teaching gender roles based on your parts is important..... but in your example Benton I also think Spider-Man is unisex. Comic books are just fun for anyone.

[StLucieBengal]

(12-03-2015, 06:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: All the possibilities are enough to hurt your head.

The one that perplexed me the most was when Jenner came out as a woman; yet said she still liked to have sex with women. Does that make her gay or straight?

This is why it's hard to take this stuff serious.    There is no standard, you can have it any way you want as long as you are creative enough.  

Up until recently this whole movement has been big time wrapped up into pornography.  Now they are trying to dress it up.

And I would say Jenner would be gay.  If we believed that you can choose your gender. If not then he is a cross dressing straight man.

[Benton]

(12-03-2015, 06:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: All the possibilities are enough to hurt your head.

The one that perplexed me the most was when Jenner came out as a woman; yet said she still liked to have sex with women. Does that make her gay or straight?

Straight.

[Vas Deferens]

(12-03-2015, 06:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The one that perplexed me the most was when Jenner came out as a woman; yet said she still liked to have sex with women. Does that make her gay or straight?

Not sure it matters.  Her prerogative is the way I see it.  

(12-03-2015, 06:40 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I agree with this... We seem to be on a similar page on this matter.  

Still think there is a mental health/chemical situation going on with these cases.   It has to be if you look at this just from nature's perspective.    Now whether that is viewed positively or negatively is up to any person to decide.    I think teaching gender roles based on your parts is important..... but in your example Benton I also think Spider-Man is unisex.   Comic books are just fun for anyone.

We already know how you 'view' it and that says a lot about the kind of person you are.

[*bfine32*]

(12-03-2015, 06:52 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Not sure it matters.  Her prerogative is the way I see it.  

Not sure I said it matters; just one of those things that makes you say hhhmmm.

But your open-mindedness is not in question.

[Belsnickel]

(12-03-2015, 06:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The one that perplexed me the most was when Jenner came out as a woman; yet said she still liked to have sex with women. Does that make her gay or straight?

I've got to admit, I have wondered about this one myself.

[Vas Deferens]

(12-03-2015, 07:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Not sure I said it matters; just one of those things that makes you say hhhmmm.

But your open-mindedness is not in question.

Not sure I said you said it matters; just saying I could care less what people do with their parts unless I want to do something with their parts.

But your parts are not in question.

[StLucieBengal]

(12-03-2015, 07:28 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've got to admit, I have wondered about this one myself.

OK seriously .... If matt has to take a moment to wonder about this then something is a miss. Haha

I would have bet almost anything that he never wondered about this

[Belsnickel]

(12-03-2015, 07:38 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: OK seriously .... If matt has to take a moment to wonder about this then something is a miss. Haha

I would have bet almost anything that he never wondered about this

It's one of those things where I don't really make an attempt to label anyone one way or the other with regards to that or make any assumptions. I typically just allow people to identify however for either orientation or identity and then go with that. But you just can't help sometimes but wonder about things like this.

[fredtoast]

Say, just for the sake of argument, that there was this guy who would never suck a penis, but he did not mind just holding one in his mouth.

He is not really gay, is he?  I mean, if he was gay he would like to suck it, right?

[fredtoast]

(12-03-2015, 05:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Honestly, my thinking right now is that society is WRONG and that there ARE male- and female-specific emotional and psychological roles characteristics and by saying there aren't they are actually de-legitimizing gender dysphoria.

This is a very complicated issue.  Most of the time that the argument "there is no difference" arises is when the alleged "difference" is being used to limit the opportunities of one gender.  Women were excluded from certain jobs, but in child custody cases the advantage was flipped and the mothers were assumed to be the best at parenting.  So both sides have worked to eliminate any perceived "difference" when it was it their favor to do so.

But a lot of people still understand that there are differences between men and women.  They just try to understand that a gender trait can not be used to limit either sides rights.

Most of the society also recognize the differences.  A major portion of the motion picture industry is directed at the female market.  

[BmorePat87]

(12-03-2015, 04:21 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Okay, so when it comes to gender, there are no longer any traditional roles or qualities. Women can be tough, can be the bread winners in a family, be into cars, porno, etc. and men can cry and be sensitive, like fashion, etc. Correct?

Basically, outside of childbirth and breastfeeding, there's nothing one can say or do anymore that society says is strictly a man's role or a woman's role, correct?

If this is true (and I'm not saying it isn't), then why is there still such a thing as gender dysphoria? If society says that their are no longer gender-specific roles or characteristics, then how can I ever say "I'm a woman" though I've got a penis? How can one claim to feel like a woman if there is no one "right" way to feel like a woman or vice versa?

Just to be clear: I'm not trying to make a point. I'm genuinely curious as to how society can say that men and women are NOT different other than reproductive organs and then say that if you're born with a vagina, it's okay to say you're a man?

I've got an open mind and would like to find an answer.

Thanks.

Society is somewhat tolerant of fluidity in some characteristics and roles, but there are still rigid divisions between genders. Gender will always be binary because sex is, for argument's sake, binary. There will always be a gender associated with each sex. Those who do not identify to the gender that is associated with their sex will always be a small minority, not enough to ever really challenge the binary nature of it. Since there will always be these rigid divisions, despite stay at home dads or women with buzz cuts, you will always have people who are born and grow up feeling like they cannot identify with the gender associated with their sex.

Since these people will always exist, you will always have the possibility that they feel distress about this. That is why gender dysphoria still exists.