Roe Vs Wade Overturned

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2022, 03:37 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Their logic and priorities are always seem to trend in the same direction; intentional moral depravity.

What a blinkered and nonsensical position.  

Quote:Act: Children are murdered in school shootings.
Means: Use of firearms.
Conclusion: The right / freedom to access and utilize the means must be protected at all costs.

A disingenuous, at best, framing of the issue.  Also a clear appeal to emotion instead of a logical or fact based argument.  Yes, a person used a firearm to kill children.  Would we outlaw knives if he used a bladed weapon to kill them?  Regardless of the answer, your position does not address the actual issue, that being that the right to own a firearm is clearly enshrined in the Constitution, whether you like it or not.  The acts of the unlawful do not invalidate the rights of the lawful.  I rather think you already know this, hence your post making no fact based or logical argument to justify your position.

Quote:Act: Fetuses are terminated with an abortion.
Means: Consensual medical procedure.
Conclusion: The right / freedom to access and utilize the means must be denied at all costs.

Again, utterly disingenuous.  Abortion is not a constitutional right, it is never mentioned, or even alluded to, in the Constitution.  Your "conclusion" is also highly inaccurate, the recent ruling only returns the question to the states, a large number of which will not outlaw the procedure.  If I was a more pro-life person I'd also point out that your argument here is also about murdering children, for which an argument can logically be made.  But I won't make that point, as I'm not one of those people.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2022, 03:31 PM)Lucidus Wrote: There are people who possess the biological means of becoming pregnant and people who do not.
These two groups are not "equal" in terms of the impact of this recent decision by the Court.

One isn't required to undergo physical, hormonal and emotional changes to bring forth life.
One isn't required to endure pain, severe discomfort or various medical issues to bring forth life.
One isn't required to potentially be forced against their will and autonomy to bring forth life.

Excuse me, transphobe.  Men can absolutely have to deal with everything you just mentioned.  You should apologize for your bigoted statement immediately.

[Belsnickel]

(06-25-2022, 02:50 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: "All men and women are CREATED EQUAL."

Men and women are CREATED when the sperm fertilizes the egg and the rest are just stages of development.

According to what? Personally, the way I look at personhood is viability. If one cannot survive on their own outside of the womb then they are not an individual person. Jewish law goes even further and it isn't until the first breath is taken after birth that they are their own person. That is where the whole creationist attitude comes from, right? Jewish law? So where does the whole point of conception thing come from? Certainly isn't OT.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

[Lucidus]

(06-25-2022, 04:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: What a blinkered and nonsensical position.  



A disingenuous, at best, framing of the issue.  Also a clear appeal to emotion instead of a logical or fact based argument.  Yes, a person used a firearm to kill children.  Would we outlaw knives if he used a bladed weapon to kill them?  Regardless of the answer, your position does not address the actual issue, that being that the right to own a firearm is clearly enshrined in the Constitution, whether you like it or not.  The acts of the unlawful do not invalidate the rights of the lawful.  I rather think you already know this, hence your post making no fact based or logical argument to justify your position.



Again, utterly disingenuous.  Abortion is not a constitutional right, it is never mentioned, or even alluded to, in the Constitution.  Your "conclusion" is also highly inaccurate, the recent ruling only returns the question to the states, a large number of which will not outlaw the procedure.  If I was a more pro-life person I'd also point out that your argument here is also about murdering children, for which an argument can logically be made.  But I won't make that point, as I'm not one of those people.

A great many people would lose their minds if their right to own firearms was revoked. 

Yet, many of those same people have absolutely no issue revoking the reproductive rights of a female.
Those statements are both factual and evident as posited on a daily basis for those that advocate for them.

If you polled all Republicans and Evangelicals, and asked them which they would prefer if they could only chose one;

Have no requirements for gun ownership or allow abortions in case of rape and incest

What do you honestly think the results would look like?

I think you know very well what the results would look like, so please don't accuse me of being disingenuous or hyperbolic when the reality of where things are trending is rather disturbing, and make no mistake, the ultimate goal is Christian Nationalism.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2022, 05:23 PM)Lucidus Wrote: A great many people would lose their minds if their right to own firearms was revoked.

Yes, losing a clearly delineated and expressly stated constitutional right is unacceptable.  Interesting point for you to make, as the Dems have been doing their best to achieve exactly that for decades. 

Quote:Yet, many of those same people have absolutely no issue revoking the reproductive rights of a female.
Those statements are both factual and evident as posited on a daily basis for those that advocate for them.

Oh, so you were engaging in intentional hyperbole?  As stated earlier in this thread, there is no stated right to abortion in the Constitution.  Never mentioned, not once.  If your argument is that it falls under the 14th's right to privacy, then you'd have to agree that vaccine mandates are unconstitutional as well.  Regardless, coaching abortion as protected by the 14th amendment was a poor conclusion, as exemplified by yesterday's decision.

Quote:If you polled all Republicans and Evangelicals, and asked them if which they would rather see completely outlawed; any requirements for gun ownership or all abortions, even as a result of rape and incest.

What do you honestly think the results would look like?

The results would be immaterial to the argument you're making.  One is a constitutional right, the other is not.

Quote:I think you know very well what the results would look like, so please don't accuse me of being disingenuous or hyperbolic when the reality of where things are trending, Make the mistake, the ultimate goal is Christian Nationalism.

Oh, that's not why I labeled your argument disingenuous.  I labeled it as such because it's based on a deliberately false foundation; that abortion and gun rights are both covered by the Constitution. 

[Lucidus]

(06-25-2022, 05:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, losing a clearly delineated and expressly stated constitutional right is unacceptable.  Interesting point for you to make, as the Dems have been doing their best to achieve exactly that for decades. 

Oh, so you were engaging in intentional hyperbole?  As stated earlier in this thread, there is no stated right to abortion in the Constitution.  Never mentioned, not once.  If your argument is that it falls under the 14th's right to privacy, then you'd have to agree that vaccine mandates are unconstitutional as well.  Regardless, coaching abortion as protected by the 14th amendment was a poor conclusion, as exemplified by yesterday's decision.

The results would be immaterial to the argument you're making.  One is a constitutional right, the other is not.

Oh, that's not why I labeled your argument disingenuous.  I labeled it as such because it's based on a deliberately false foundation; that abortion and gun rights are both covered by the Constitution. 

The results would be very material in terms of the mindset and goals of the Republicans / Evangelicals. To simply dismiss the implications is to willingly ignore that beliefs have consequences when acted upon. I am curious as to why you wouldn't share an opinion as to what you honestly think the results would look like. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-25-2022, 06:04 PM)Lucidus Wrote: The results were be very material in terms of the mindset and goals of the Republicans / Evangelicals. To simply dismiss the implications is to willingly ignore that beliefs have consequences when acted upon. I am curious as to why you wouldn't share an opinion as to what you honestly think the results would look like. 

You're not going to apologize for your transphobia, are you?

[Lucidus]

(06-25-2022, 06:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're not going to apologize for your transphobia, are you?

Transphobia? 

[Lucidus]

(06-25-2022, 04:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Excuse me, transphobe.  Men can absolutely have to deal with everything you just mentioned.  You should apologize for your bigoted statement immediately.

I had to go back through your responses to see if I missed something after your accusation of transphobia, and it appears that I missed this post, which I honestly wish I had missed again.

Either you're trolling, ignorant of reproductive biology, or perhaps both. Even if your attempt was to be sarcastic or humorous, it failed in a rather disgusting manner. 

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Goalpost]

Aren't most people kind of in the middle on this? Abortion is a difficult subject but most would allow it. However the late term part of it runs into more opposition.

[*pally*]

It is always interesting to see the opinions on abortion from men who will never have to live the actual reality of the impact an unplanned unwanted pregnancy has on a woman. Or the impact of carrying a child who will be born only to quickly die. Or having to give up everything to take care of a profoundly disabled child. Sure there is some impact on the father but they aren't the one whose entire life and health will change because of a pregnancy.

First of all, you will never ever legislate abortion out of existence. It has been part of society since women first became pregnant. What is being done is safe abortion for poor and marginalized women is being outlawed. It is being outlawed in states with minimal social safety nets, underperforming education systems, and poor records of conviction for crimes against women. They are condemning another generation of children to poverty, in many cases. Many of these states don't have the capacity to handle an increase in abandoned healthy children let alone special needs children.

Women have lost the right to make decisions for themselves concerning their bodies and their families. If you don't understand why women are upset then you are oblivious. This isn't about just the right to abortion. And it was done by right-wing extremists on the court pushing their personal religious beliefs on Americans. All of Trump's judges were chosen by the right-wing Federalist Society. Gorsuch has a seat McConnell obstructed for a year so it wouldn't be filled by the duly elected President. Then he changed Senate rules so he would be confirmed. Justice Kennedy retired under some very unusual circumstances so that Kavanaugh could be nominated. Kavanaugh had several million dollars in debts cleared up mysteriously (well above his financial means to pay off like they were) with no investigation that should have disqualified him. But McConnell's rules prevailed again. And oh yeah let's talk about ramrodding Barrett through with less than a month to election day with voting already underway despite that being the argument McConnell used to block Garland
. Let's not forget about Thomas whose wife was actively involved in the coup attempt to keep Trump in office. Thomas has already announced he is after birth control, same-sex marriage, and sexual freedom for consenting adults. There will be more. EVERY human being has a right to privacy in their bedroom and doctor's office.
So now states, like Ohio, with heavily gerrymandered state legislatures have made abortion virtually unobtainable. What they haven't done is address ANY of the issues that lead to abortion in the first place. Or to put in any assistance to change things once a child is born. Ohio minimum wage won't support 1 person let alone a child. There is no mandatory paid maternity leave. Minimal help for daycare, and early childhood education. Medicaid is restricted. There are NO new laws forcing child support payments from the time of conception, and no life insurance in case of miscarriage. No rules spelling out the paternal responsibility. Nope, the entire burden is on the woman.

There is more to being pro-life than being pro-birth but frankly, that is where it stops for most of that movement. They look at you blankly when after birth is brought up. They are all pro-adoption, which is unaffordable for many, only if these babies go to good "Christian" homes of course. Adopted children have demons of their own. There is a very real mental health issue surrounding the feeling of abandonment from birth parents and detachment from adopted parents. No help with mental health care either from the pro-life crowd.

I am proudly pro-LIFE but this is not the way to end abortion. It is a way to alienate a large part of the population though. It is a poorly written decision that will have unforeseen profound repercussions. We are headed toward rule by a Christian Taliban. We are dangerously close already in far too many states. Sadly though they have already taken over the Supreme Court.

[*pally*]

(06-25-2022, 07:10 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Aren't most people kind of in the middle on this?  Abortion is a difficult subject but most would allow it.  However the late term part of it runs into more opposition.

There are so many lies surrounding late-term abortions. Women and doctors do not abort viable children.  They don't... regardless of what has been said by Pro-lifers. Women do not just decide to go out and have a late term abortion. These babies are either so terribly sick that they won't survive to term or the mother is so sick she won't survive.  A baby that is even close to viability is delivered not aborted.   It is the most difficult decision of their lives.  If they are pregnant past 20 weeks they want that baby.  They've prepared for that child.  They are devastated when they can't carry to term.  
Think about it, you are 21 weeks pregnant and diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.  If you don't get immediate surgery and chemo you will die.  If you get the surgery and chemo...your baby dies.  What do you do?  That is the type of choice these women have to make.

[Lucidus]

(06-25-2022, 07:24 PM)pally Wrote: It is always interesting to see the opinions on abortion from men who will never have to live the actual reality of the impact an unplanned unwanted pregnancy has on a woman. Or the impact of carrying a child who will be born only to quickly die.  Or having to give up everything to take care of a profoundly disabled child. Sure there is some impact on the father but they aren't the one whose entire life and health will change because of a pregnancy.

First of all, you will never ever legislate abortion out of existence.  It has been part of society since women first became pregnant.  What is being done is safe abortion for poor and marginalized women is being outlawed.  It is being outlawed in states with minimal social safety nets, underperforming education systems, and poor records of conviction for crimes against women.  They are condemning another generation of children to poverty, in many cases.  Many of these states don't have the capacity to handle an increase in abandoned healthy children let alone special needs children.  

Women have lost the right to make decisions for themselves concerning their bodies and their families. If you don't understand why women are upset then you are oblivious.  This isn't about just the right to abortion.  And it was done by right-wing extremists on the court pushing their personal religious beliefs on Americans.  All of Trump's judges were chosen by the right-wing Federalist Society.  Gorsuch has a seat McConnell obstructed for a year so it wouldn't be filled by the duly elected President.  Then he changed Senate rules so he would be confirmed.  Justice Kennedy retired under some very unusual circumstances so that Kavanaugh could be nominated.  Kavanaugh had several million dollars in debts cleared up mysteriously (well above his financial means to pay off like they were) with no investigation that should have disqualified him.  But McConnell's rules prevailed again.  And oh yeah let's talk about ramrodding Barrett through with less than a month to election day with voting already underway despite that being the argument McConnell used to block Gorsuch.  Let's not forget about Thomas whose wife was actively involved in the coup attempt to keep Trump in office.  Thomas has already announced he is after birth control, same-sex marriage, and sexual freedom for consenting adults.  There will be more.  EVERY human being has a right to privacy in their bedroom and doctor's office.  
So now states, like Ohio, with heavily gerrymandered state legislatures have made abortion virtually unobtainable.  What they haven't done is address ANY of the issues that lead to abortion in the first place.  Or to put in any assistance to change things once a child is born.  Ohio minimum wage won't support 1 person let alone a child.  There is no mandatory paid maternity leave.  Minimal help for daycare, and early childhood education. Medicaid is restricted.  There are NO new laws forcing child support payments from the time of conception, and no life insurance in case of miscarriage.  No rules spelling out the paternal responsibility.  Nope, the entire burden is on the woman.  

There is more to being pro-life than being pro-birth but frankly, that is where it stops for most of that movement.  They look at you blankly when after birth is brought up.  They are all pro-adoption, which is unaffordable for many, only if these babies go to good "Christian" homes of course.  Adopted children have demons of their own.  There is a very real mental health issue surrounding the feeling of abandonment from birth parents and detachment from adopted parents.  No help with mental health care either from the pro-life crowd.

I am proudly pro-LIFE but this is not the way to end abortion. It is a way to alienate a large part of the population though.  It is a poorly written decision that will have unforeseen profound repercussions.  We are headed toward rule by a Christian Taliban.  We are dangerously close already in far too many states.  Sadly though they have already taken over the Supreme Court.

Extremely thoughtful and insightful post pally. You make a myriad of valid points and accurately express the concern that we should all be feeling right now.

As I've stated before, their goal is Christian Nationalism. They aren't even wary about openly expressing their intent anymore. The days of maneuvering towards this goal behind closed doors are long gone. They now do so publicly, brazenly and unapologetically.

 

[IsaacCurtis]

It's all a waste of time distraction.
Govt is just trying to start a civil war in every corner.

You argue over this instead of realizing how your being played hardcore for the last two years

[CJD]

(06-25-2022, 07:24 PM)pally Wrote: It is always interesting to see the opinions on abortion from men who will never have to live the actual reality of the impact an unplanned unwanted pregnancy has on a woman. Or the impact of carrying a child who will be born only to quickly die.  Or having to give up everything to take care of a profoundly disabled child. Sure there is some impact on the father but they aren't the one whose entire life and health will change because of a pregnancy.

First of all, you will never ever legislate abortion out of existence.  It has been part of society since women first became pregnant.  What is being done is safe abortion for poor and marginalized women is being outlawed.  It is being outlawed in states with minimal social safety nets, underperforming education systems, and poor records of conviction for crimes against women.  They are condemning another generation of children to poverty, in many cases.  Many of these states don't have the capacity to handle an increase in abandoned healthy children let alone special needs children.  

Women have lost the right to make decisions for themselves concerning their bodies and their families. If you don't understand why women are upset then you are oblivious.  This isn't about just the right to abortion.  And it was done by right-wing extremists on the court pushing their personal religious beliefs on Americans.  All of Trump's judges were chosen by the right-wing Federalist Society.  Gorsuch has a seat McConnell obstructed for a year so it wouldn't be filled by the duly elected President.  Then he changed Senate rules so he would be confirmed.  Justice Kennedy retired under some very unusual circumstances so that Kavanaugh could be nominated.  Kavanaugh had several million dollars in debts cleared up mysteriously (well above his financial means to pay off like they were) with no investigation that should have disqualified him.  But McConnell's rules prevailed again.  And oh yeah let's talk about ramrodding Barrett through with less than a month to election day with voting already underway despite that being the argument McConnell used to block Gorsuch.  Let's not forget about Thomas whose wife was actively involved in the coup attempt to keep Trump in office.  Thomas has already announced he is after birth control, same-sex marriage, and sexual freedom for consenting adults.  There will be more.  EVERY human being has a right to privacy in their bedroom and doctor's office.  
So now states, like Ohio, with heavily gerrymandered state legislatures have made abortion virtually unobtainable.  What they haven't done is address ANY of the issues that lead to abortion in the first place.  Or to put in any assistance to change things once a child is born.  Ohio minimum wage won't support 1 person let alone a child.  There is no mandatory paid maternity leave.  Minimal help for daycare, and early childhood education. Medicaid is restricted.  There are NO new laws forcing child support payments from the time of conception, and no life insurance in case of miscarriage.  No rules spelling out the paternal responsibility.  Nope, the entire burden is on the woman.  

There is more to being pro-life than being pro-birth but frankly, that is where it stops for most of that movement.  They look at you blankly when after birth is brought up.  They are all pro-adoption, which is unaffordable for many, only if these babies go to good "Christian" homes of course.  Adopted children have demons of their own.  There is a very real mental health issue surrounding the feeling of abandonment from birth parents and detachment from adopted parents.  No help with mental health care either from the pro-life crowd.

I am proudly pro-LIFE but this is not the way to end abortion. It is a way to alienate a large part of the population though.  It is a poorly written decision that will have unforeseen profound repercussions.  We are headed toward rule by a Christian Taliban.  We are dangerously close already in far too many states.  Sadly though they have already taken over the Supreme Court.

Well said. You've expressed what I would have attempted to had I not read your post first. 

[samhain]

(06-25-2022, 07:10 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Aren't most people kind of in the middle on this?  Abortion is a difficult subject but most would allow it.  However the late term part of it runs into more opposition.

I feel like a lot of people would personally never want to have/propose the procedure themselves, but are a lot more indifferent when it comes to the decisions of other people.

[samhain]

(06-25-2022, 07:10 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Aren't most people kind of in the middle on this?  Abortion is a difficult subject but most would allow it.  However the late term part of it runs into more opposition.

Hard to say your statement is wrong.  I'm massively guilty of getting shitty in political arguments, but I'm trying to back off and appreciate people for the things I like about them rather than the things we disagree on.  You know, like we used to fairly regularly in this country.

[samhain]

It's kind of wild to me as a born-and-raised Catholic to one major branch of government controlled by a sizable majority of the kind of conservative catholics that I grew up around. I suppose the executive branch is Catholic as well, but a different breed, perhaps.

The right wing evangelical movement was dying for this moment for years, but in the end it was the Catholics that many of them traditionally despise that moved the ball over the line. I wonder what the protestant right of the Kennedy era that thought he would be controlled by Rome would think of a Court stacked with unapologetic Catholics handing down the most impactful legal decisions in the land.

[I] guess the anti-abortion pamphlets that our church stacked into the pews that my mom made sure I didn't see (ones with fetus heads on fork-looking implements) were pretty effective in the end.

[*jason*]

(06-25-2022, 11:40 PM)samhain Wrote: It's kind of wild to me as a born-and-raised Catholic to one major branch of government controlled by a sizable majority of the kind of conservative catholics that I grew up around. I suppose the executive branch is Catholic as well, but a different breed, perhaps.

The right wing evangelical movement was dying for this moment for years, but in the end it was the Catholics that many of them traditionally despise that moved the ball over the line. I wonder what the protestant right of the Kennedy era that thought he would be controlled by Rome would think of a Court stacked with unapologetic Catholics handing down the most impactful legal decisions in the land.

[I] guess the anti-abortion pamphlets that our church stacked into the pews that my mom made sure I didn't see (ones with fetus heads on fork-looking implements) were pretty effective in the end.

Yeah... I'm hoping the crazy old broad that drives around the neighborhood with aborted fetus pictures on her car gives it a rest.