SCOTUS rules on Travel Ban

[Dill]

(06-28-2018, 09:22 AM)Beaker Wrote: I believe there are a myriad of factors that determine educational achievement. I have kids from low socioeconomic backgrounds at both ends of the spectrum. The most influential factor in their achievement is not money, but parental involvement.

This moves the question back a step. Do you think that level of parental involvement correlates to socioeconomic background?

To ask the same question from another angle, do you think that parental involvement/student achievement are evenly or randomly distributed across socioeconomic backgrounds? 

Also, would you agree that this is an empirical question, which can be answered by social science if correctly posed and properly researched?

PS a correlation between socioeconomic background and academic success would not necessarily mean that "money" was the deciding factor, or even what the research focus should be.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-28-2018, 03:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It does, though, if you think races are equal. It accounts for their being individual differences within the races, and even some variability between races. The difference between races currently seen in this country, though, cannot be accounted for if we truly have equality of opportunity in this country.

I get that we don't have a true equality of opportunity because some people are fortunate to be born to rich people or people with a lot of connections or have both parents or whatever. But, even if we did, I still don't think you're going to see proporationate representation of races in each demographic. And I believe that to be more of the choices of each individual (which is impacted by their local culture and their upbringing and other things as well, to be sure) than with something abstract as "instutionalized racism".

[Beaker]

(06-28-2018, 02:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it does not.

When I graduated from college in Knoxville the most exclusive country club (Cherokee Hills) was all-white and refused to admit even wealthy successful black people.  And it was the same all over the country.  Just look at when Augusta National admitted their first black member.  These country club members were not rednecks with rebel flags on their pick up trucks.  They were the power brokers who control hiring, firing, promotions, and handing out contracts.


Can you say with a straight face that black people who worked as hard as I did and graduated with me had "equal opportunity" to get a job under those conditions?


This is not from history.  This is from my current generation.  I am only 55.  And the privilege of my generation will be passed on to the next due to intergenerational wealth elasticity.

Clubs are by nature exclusionary. Whether that's a country club or a women only gym. 

[Beaker]

(06-28-2018, 01:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are saying that white people hold a higher percentage of the wealth because they are the superior race?   

Really? That's what you got from what I said? 

[fredtoast]

(06-28-2018, 02:22 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, they don't. Not anymore. At least, not in America anyways.

WTF are you talking about.



Whites’ share of the nation’s wealth is 31 percent greater than their share of the nation’s population. Blacks’ share of the nation’s wealth is 80 percent less than their share of the population. 



!3% of the population is black, but only 8% of congress.

There are only 4 black CEOs in the Fortune 500

Among the other senior executives of Fortune 500 companies that provide racial breakdowns 73% are white and only 2% are black.

Only 10% of federal judges are minorities (Asian, hispannic, black).



So please explain to me why you say that white people do not still control a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power in this country?

[fredtoast]

(06-28-2018, 04:11 PM)Beaker Wrote: Really? That's what you got from what I said? 

Sorry if I misunderstood, but you said opportunity was only about work and since Whites control a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power in this country that would lead me to believe that you think white people just work harder than minorities.

If that is not what you meant then please explain.

[fredtoast]

(06-28-2018, 04:07 PM)Beaker Wrote: Clubs are by nature exclusionary. Whether that's a country club or a women only gym. 

Then answer the question I asked.

Can you say with a straight face that black people who worked as hard as I did and graduated with me had "equal opportunity" to get a job under those conditions?

[fredtoast]

(06-28-2018, 03:54 PM)PhilHos Wrote:  But, even if we did, I still don't think you're going to see proporationate representation of races in each demographic.

So if everyone had equal opportunity which race do you think would come out ahead?

And please explain why you choose that race.

[Belsnickel]

(06-28-2018, 03:54 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I get that we don't have a true equality of opportunity because some people are fortunate to be born to rich people or people with a lot of connections or have both parents or whatever. But, even if we did, I still don't think you're going to see proporationate representation of races in each demographic. And I believe that to be more of the choices of each individual (which is impacted by their local culture and their upbringing and other things as well, to be sure) than with something abstract as "instutionalized racism".

The inequality based on race that would cause the disproportionate representation throughout the strata is a result of institutional racism. Institutional racism is a process in which there is an exertion of structural violence (not physical violence, this term in a sociological stance means something keeping a person or group of people from reaching their full potential) by the institutions in place based on race. If the institutions do not allow for success with these cultural differences then this is not equality of opportunity, as not everyone has the same opportunity. We need to be creating institutions and systems in which people coming from all cultures within the United States have equal potential to succeed. We need to remove the systemic barriers to success that exist to prevent not only people of color, but also people in certain regions of this country like in Appalachia, from reaching their full potential.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-28-2018, 04:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So please explain to me why you say that white people do not still control a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power in this country?

I didn't say they don't control a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power. I said they don't have the power to oppress people in America.

[Beaker]

(06-28-2018, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry if I misunderstood, but you said opportunity was only about work and since Whites control a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power in this country that would lead me to believe that you think white people just work harder than minorities.

If that is not what you meant then please explain.

You knew full well that wasn't what I meant when you posted your reply. 

Within every group, individuals pursue opportunities at different rates. So to say that wealth would be distributed exactly the same as the percentages of racial make up if equality of opportunity were true is incorrect.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-28-2018, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So if everyone had equal opportunity which race do you think would come out ahead?

And please explain why you choose that race.

Come out ahead in what?

[Beaker]

(06-28-2018, 04:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then answer the question I asked.

Can you say with a straight face that black people who worked as hard as I did and graduated with me had "equal opportunity" to get a job under those conditions?

Can you say with a straight face that racism isn't less prevalent now than when you graduated?

[Belsnickel]

(06-28-2018, 04:23 PM)Beaker Wrote: You knew full well that wasn't what I meant when you posted your reply. 

Within every group, individuals pursue opportunities at different rates. So to say that wealth would be distributed exactly the same as the percentages of racial make up if equality of opportunity were true is incorrect.

Are white people more willing to seek opportunities and put in work than other races?

[fredtoast]

(06-28-2018, 04:23 PM)Beaker Wrote: You knew full well that wasn't what I meant when you posted your reply. 

Within every group, individuals pursue opportunities at different rates. So to say that wealth would be distributed exactly the same as the percentages of racial make up if equality of opportunity were true is incorrect.

I'm still not sure I understand why you say white people control such a disproportionate percentage of the wealth and power.

Are saying a higher percentage of white people "pursue opportunities" at a higher rate?

[Beaker]

(06-28-2018, 04:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Are white people more willing to seek opportunities and put in work than other races?

All races have individuals more willing to pursue opportunities than others.

[Belsnickel]

(06-28-2018, 04:26 PM)Beaker Wrote: All races have individuals more willing to pursue opportunities than others.

That doesn't answer my question and it doesn't account for disproportionate racial representation at different socioeconomic levels.

Would you like to answer my question?

[Beaker]

(06-28-2018, 04:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I'm still not sure I understand why you say white people control such a disproportionate percentage of the wealth and power.

Are saying a higher percentage of white people "pursue opportunities" at a higher rate?

That's because I didn't say white people control a disproportionate percentage....you did.

[Beaker]

(06-28-2018, 04:27 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That doesn't answer my question and it doesn't account for disproportionate racial representation at different socioeconomic levels.

Would you like to answer my question?

Yes it does. Variability among individuals accounts for variability among socioeconomic levels.

[Belsnickel]

(06-28-2018, 04:29 PM)Beaker Wrote: Yes it does. Variability among individuals accounts for variability among socioeconomic levels.

No, it doesn't. That accounts for unequal distribution within races in a market economy, but it does not account for unequal distribution between races.

Would you like to answer my question, now?