Sola Fide

[Belsnickel]

(04-27-2016, 08:49 AM)GMDino Wrote: This...a thousand times this.

Which is why everyone seems to "know" what their god wants them to do (through their "personal relationship" with him) and it always coincides with the way they want to live their life.

Yup. In my conversation about this on Reddit, the guy asked me if I believed that there would be non-Christians in heaven. If I thought that God would save those that lived a good life even without the faith. My response was "I don't know. I hope so, because I know some awesome people that aren't Christians, but to try to say whether they will or won't be there is trying to get into the mind of God and that's just not something I could do."

[GMDino]

(04-27-2016, 08:55 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yup. In my conversation about this on Reddit, the guy asked me if I believed that there would be non-Christians in heaven. If I thought that God would save those that lived a good life even without the faith. My response was "I don't know. I hope so, because I know some awesome people that aren't Christians, but to try to say whether they will or won't be there is trying to get into the mind of God and that's just not something I could do."

And that statement is why my extreme christian friend no longer talks to me.

There can be no other way than his...which is OF COURSE the way god wants it.

[fredtoast]

(04-26-2016, 05:12 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: In the early days of Judaism, the nature of Heaven was not discussed. It was not assumed that Heaven was a place for human souls. It was merely the place where God dwelt. And since God could not be viewed or understood by humans, Heaven would therefore not be a place for humans or humans souls. As to what would happen to humans when they died, no one knew.

But they clearly believed that there was a "soul" that survived as an individual after death.  The concept of the dead dwelling in sheol appears in the original Torah.

[Rotobeast]

(04-27-2016, 07:58 AM)GMDino Wrote: And that is "religion" in a nutshell.

If it makes sense to you...you can believe it.

If you step back and question why an all powerful being would make a sacrifice of himself to himself to show the creatures he created he doesn't need a sacrifice anymore it stops making so much sense.

Then if you look and see all it did was create another riff in what people believe it makes even less sense.

Then the argument comes that that is because we are human and not perfect like god.  A god whose plan didn't work.

I suppose the sacrificing of Himself was done in hopes of setting an example, putting us on a path of "micro-sacrifices" for one another, and (of course) eliminate the ritual sacrifices so we might concentrate on our fellow man.

The rift you speak of is there, unfortunately.
There will ALWAYS be asshats that pervert anything to gain advantage.
This illustrates the chosen path, of free will.
It can be ugly and it is looking less and less like the meek shall inherit the earth.
(Maybe that means they'll be buried sooner ?)
Regardless..... "Blessed are the cheese-makers.".

As far as His plan not working........ Dunno.
I'm not going to be so vain as to attempt to judge such a thing.
But...that rift you spoke of is showing everyone a peek into the souls of others.

[Bengalzona]

(04-27-2016, 09:01 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But they clearly believed that there was a "soul" that survived as an individual after death.  The concept of the dead dwelling in sheol appears in the original Torah.

True.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to have said that their concept of a before life or an after life was undefined. The Sadduccees preferred this lack of definition. The Pharissees sought further definition, such as the reference to the Guff (repository of unborn souls) in the Talmud, etc. 

There has been this overall trend over time in Judeo-Christian theology to determine what an afterlife would be like. What started out as a vague concept of the soul living on after death (which probably had roots with the Egyptians) has been further defined by successive sects and denominations. It is a "selling point" among religions: "If you follow these rules, you get Heaven!!" But the original concept among the Sadduccees was "We don't know what is there. But there is a Hell (Sheol). And it must be better than that! Don't worry about it. Do what God says and you'll be okay in the end."

[Bengalzona]

(04-26-2016, 11:11 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Many Baptist Churches are starting to turn Calvin and believing that God picks and chooses who's going to Heaven and who's going to Hell. Maybe that's what you heard, I don't know.

My Baptist Church teaches that it is through Jesus Christ as the only way to Heaven. As long as you believe that Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you're going to Heaven. Yes, that means Catholics, Methodists, Protestant and so on and so forth.

I'm thinking you may have been in a Baptist Church that teaches Calvinism.

If you want to learn more on Calvinist views of Election, read A.W. Pinks "The Doctrine Of Election" found here http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Election/index.htm

Is your church Southern Baptist? 

Thanks for the reference. Interesting reading. 

[XenoMorph]

(04-27-2016, 09:01 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But they clearly believed that there was a "soul" that survived as an individual after death.  The concept of the dead dwelling in sheol appears in the original Torah.

And that could be a persons energy. energy cannot be destroyed or created only transformed. when you Die your energy no longer contained by your mortal shell disappates and forms with other energy to create something new. so basically you become part of the Whole or a little part of everything. (which could be part of the born anew aspects of some religions)

On the original topic i dont think much of it. But unlike most people i dont believe the thing most call "god" is any sort of persona or being with thought but does have the power to create and destroy. And provides life and protection to this planet. But over the 100s of 1000s of years man has developed and learned of the stars storys were told before written words that transformed these things into characters to make the storys easier to remember and pass on to the next generations. therefore.. using the words you started with to me would mean BE ONE WITH NATURE...

And praise the Actualy thing that provides life to all the SUN

[Beaker]

I just have a problem with the construct that we are all sinners. That is one of the main reasons I don't subscribe to christianity. We don't require being saved. That whole idea was put forth as a way to control people via fear. If there is a god, you are loved no matter what you do. Because whatever you do served a purpose.

[xxlt]

(04-27-2016, 08:55 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yup. In my conversation about this on Reddit, the guy asked me if I believed that there would be non-Christians in heaven. If I thought that God would save those that lived a good life even without the faith. My response was "I don't know. I hope so, because I know some awesome people that aren't Christians, but to try to say whether they will or won't be there is trying to get into the mind of God and that's just not something I could do."

Amen, amigo.

[xxlt]

(04-26-2016, 01:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I understand the concept that man has done nothing to deserve God's forgiveness, but I have never understood why Jesus had to die for it.

If I make a sacrifice to myself I am not making a sacrifice at all.

That is interesting, but I think what the "sacrifice of Jesus" is indicative of is far less the nature of God and far more the nature of the primitive tribal people who were trying to fathom the nature of God.

[fredtoast]

(04-27-2016, 03:51 PM)Bengalzona Wrote:  But the original concept among the Sadduccees was "We don't know what is there. But there is a Hell (Sheol). And it must be better than that! Don't worry about it. Do what God says and you'll be okay in the end."

And Sheol was not a pit of fire or anything like that.

The worst thing about Sheol was the absence of God.

[Bengalzona]

(04-27-2016, 11:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And Sheol was not a pit of fire or anything like that.

The worst thing about Sheol was the absence of God.

Yeah. To my understanding, it was more like an empty cave. Some modern Christians have started thinking of Hell the same way: no burning fires, just absence or distance from God.