Some Fans Need an Eye Exam

[packerbacker]

(11-03-2017, 02:21 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You think that's something? I was trick or treating in the same area with my Eifert jersey on and some doofus in a Bengals hoodie started yelling at me about how much the o-line sucks. I tried reasoning with the tool, and even brought up how Dalton causes most of his own sacks, but he wasn't having it. This bumpkin was so upset that he took my kids candy! 


Bro, everyone knows you gotta use max repel when in Mt. Moon.

Hey Shake Bengals upset over the Jaguars 26-23.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-03-2017, 02:24 PM)packerbacker Wrote: Hey Shake Bengals upset over the Jaguars 26-23.

Why would the Bengals be upset with a win?

[GodFather]

(11-03-2017, 02:18 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Never out of the possibility until we are eliminated from playoff contention

To my point  :andy:

[GodFather]

(11-03-2017, 09:09 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote: It's a national thing. I live in the Northwest and whenever someone decides to talk Bengals with me, it's all about Dalton and how he's at fault for everything. Sacks, bad running game, receivers dropping balls....all attributed to Dalton.

I live in New England where everyones favorite team usually wins(except Jets) and the they find out Im a Bengals fan I always get this look like I have stage 4 cancer and an apologetic "Im so sorry"

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-03-2017, 11:11 AM)Wyche Wrote: It's tough to keep my mouth shut at games.....I sometimes offer a passive aggressive stab to my surrounding friends, but mostly refrain.  I was there the game they booed Palmer for eclipsing 20k yards......it seems not a lot of people in the stadium understand the game.  That, or they're so jaded, they can't even celebrate a player's milestone.

I swear some folks are more happy being miserable

[BengalFanInNJ]

(11-03-2017, 03:01 PM)GodFather Wrote: I live in New England where everyones favorite team usually wins(except Jets) and the they find out Im a Bengals fan I always get this look like I have stage 4 cancer and an apologetic "Im so sorry"

Growing up and living in New Jersey, I got the same look from Giants fans. I've even gotten hugs. Jets fans didn't care because they were pretty bad at times as well.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-03-2017, 12:21 PM)Okeana Wrote: Dalton is a serviceable quarterback at best who's had his stats padded by playing on a superior team.  remove AJ green and he does nothing, remove a good offensive line and he crumbles.  There is plenty of blame to go around on the team right now offensively, but Marvin Lewis needs to be held accountable and dalton needs to shoulder his portion of the blame as well.  Exactly how many open targets this year has he over thrown or under thrown ?  I wouldn't know because i stopped watching after the 2nd game, but this topic is up for a reason.

Like that time AJ missed 3 games, and parts of others in 2014, and Jones missed the year, Eifert played 1 game, and he made Mohamad Sanu a semi legit #1WR and we tanked and failed to make the postseason?  Or there was the time the Jets sacked him 7 times on opening day, and he had shitty day. Oh, wait........

He is more than serviceable, and you're overestimating the talent a bit of the surrounding cast.  Yes, when the line is good, and AJ Green is on the field, he is much better.  No shit.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-03-2017, 01:38 PM)BMK Wrote: I don't think any fans with even a little bit of football intelligence think that Dalton is the sole problem with this team. Dalton is a good quarterback that, surrounded by good players, will be successful and run the offense productively. Quarterbacks like that can, and have, gone all the way to the Superbowl. What he isn't, is a great quarterback that can carry a team when everything isn't working exactly how it's supposed to or has a few weak links. Part of that is leadership, and that, to me, is what Dalton really lacks.

I was watching one of those NFL channel shows where they show snippets of mic'd up players. One was either Brady or Ben (can't remember which) on the sideline yelling at his OL that he's "not getting time to throw a  *&#%  5 yard out!"   I go to home games and on the sideline, I rarely see Andy talking with the OL let alone getting in their face. I don't believe he has that level of respect from other teammates to pull that off. It comes down to leadership. On the field, a leader is going to do everything humanly possible on 4th down to move the sticks. Throwing the ball away when pressured in that situation and giving up possession is not how you earn the respect of your teammates.

You hear players on other teams say part of their motivation is not wanting to let (insert quarterback's name here) down. I'm not sure that feeling is omni-prevalent on this team.

I honestly believe that Dalton is a good quarterback that under the right circumstances could be very good. I think if he was the type of leader that naturally motivates and raises the level of those around him, a hallmark of all good leaders,  he could be exceptional. He doesn't lack football skills, he lacks leadership skills and I believe to a degree, the whole team suffers for it.

This is well said, in my opinion.  I think he could stand to get on some people a bit more, myself.....although he has ripped Blodine a new one a time or two that I can think of.

The only part where I would disagree is that he doesn't have the respect of his teammates.  I don't think that's true at all.  Specifically, AJ Green, our superstar, has been in his corner from day one.

[BMK]

(11-03-2017, 02:06 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: AJ said it last year and said it again this week.

The biggest name on our offense.

So, you were saying?

I was saying you forgot about AJ's frustration and rant after the Houston game about him not getting the ball. AJ is by far my favorite player, and I'm sure he has the utmost respect and admiration for Andy. But, lets not lose sight of the fact that presently, AJ depends very much on Dalton for him to be successful. What do you think he's going to say? I was also saying that if AJ felt he had to say what he said this week, he pretty much made my point. You'd think that would already be understood and accepted by the team and not need publicly stated. 

[Bengalholic]

(11-03-2017, 12:21 PM)Okeana Wrote: Dalton is a serviceable quarterback at best who's had his stats padded by playing on a superior team.  remove AJ green and he does nothing, remove a good offensive line and he crumbles.  

Superior teams don't set an NFL record by losing 5 consecutive playoff games. They've had some talented teams for sure, but that talent, and coaching staff, couldn't figure out how to win a single postseason game, looked lost in most prime time games and has been dominated by their biggest foe. Now sure how that can be considered superior in any way.

[*Awful Llama*]

(11-03-2017, 11:11 AM)Wyche Wrote: It's tough to keep my mouth shut at games.....I sometimes offer a passive aggressive stab to my surrounding friends, but mostly refrain.  I was there the game they booed Palmer for eclipsing 20k yards......it seems not a lot of people in the stadium understand the game.  That, or they're so jaded, they can't even celebrate a player's milestone.

God, that was a shake-your-head moment.  What are you idiots booing?! I yelled to no one in particular. I think we were actually winning at the time, too.  I don't get it, but then I've never really been a boo-er (boo-ite?).  I'm happy if we win, and if we suck, then I and whomever I brought to the game will have a laugh at their ineptitude and head on home.  What else can you do?  It's just a damn game, for pete's sake.  No use getting angry about it.  

Here's a walk down memory lane: 

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2010/10/13/1749579/hearing-the-boos-carson-palmer-says-it-comes-with-the-territory

[Derrick]

(11-03-2017, 11:11 AM)Wyche Wrote: It's tough to keep my mouth shut at games.....I sometimes offer a passive aggressive stab to my surrounding friends, but mostly refrain.  I was there the game they booed Palmer for eclipsing 20k yards......it seems not a lot of people in the stadium understand the game.  That, or they're so jaded, they can't even celebrate a player's milestone.

The people of whom you speak, have spent too much time and brain cells tailgating before staggering into the stadium. I refuse to be on the road when these  "____'s"  get into their vehicles to drive home after the game.

[Bengalholic]

(11-03-2017, 06:34 PM)Awful Llama Wrote: God, that was a shake-your-head moment.  What are you idiots booing?! I yelled to no one in particular. I think we were actually winning at the time, too.  I don't get it, but then I've never really been a boo-er (boo-ite?).  I'm happy if we win, and if we suck, then I and whomever I brought to the game will have a laugh at their ineptitude and head on home.  What else can you do?  It's just a damn game, for pete's sake.  No use getting angry about it.  

Here's a walk down memory lane: 

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2010/10/13/1749579/hearing-the-boos-carson-palmer-says-it-comes-with-the-territory

Hell, fans cheered Kenny Anderson getting injured while he was writhing in pain on the field and his wife was watching in the stands...which led Kenny to refer to Bengals fans as 'stupid' and 'classless'. 

[THE PISTONS]

Most fans have no clue about the X's and O's of football. The QB and HC are the visible parts of a team and get most of the blame.

re: Marvin - He's not a great HC by any means...but IF he were the coach of the Steelers since 2004...I bet they'd have won atleast 1 Super Bowl with him.

It's pretty hard for ANYONE to look good for this franchise.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-03-2017, 06:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Superior teams don't set an NFL record by losing 5 consecutive playoff games. They've had some talented teams for sure, but that talent, and coaching staff, couldn't figure out how to win a single postseason game, looked lost in most prime time games and has been dominated by their biggest foe. Now sure how that can be considered superior in any way.

Precisely.

Maybe the answer is as simple as drafting too many low character guys. But I doubt that it is. Also Dalton isn't the reason either. It's an organizational culture thing and that starts at the top.

Each playoff team we've had possessed some fatal flaws that the opponents exploited.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-03-2017, 04:47 PM)BMK Wrote: I was saying you forgot about AJ's frustration and rant after the Houston game about him not getting the ball. AJ is by far my favorite player, and I'm sure he has the utmost respect and admiration for Andy.  But, lets not lose sight of the fact that presently, AJ depends very much on Dalton for him to be successful. What do you think he's going to say?  I was also saying that if AJ felt he had to say what he said this week, he pretty much made my point. You'd think that would already be understood and accepted by the team and not need publicly stated. 

.....and after that rant, the OC was fired....not the QB benched.

[Devils Advocate]

A common theme I’ve read (& heard just the other day from the guy filling in for Mo on ESPN radio), is that ‘Andy needs everything to be perfect around him to succeed’.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

His surroundings have never been perfect. Some aspect of the offense has consistently been deficient, whether it’s a lack of a second reciever, no running game, or poor blocking. There has always been a glaring weakness in the offense.

Andy is a fine QB. I’ve been comfortable/confident with him in many games where he needs to score to win (4th comebacks). Guess what? He’s lead his team down the field often for the go ahead/winning score.

I’m confident they’ll beat Jacksonville. I’m confident it will be largely due to Andy playing well and/or making the plays that need to be made.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-04-2017, 09:18 AM)Devils Advocate Wrote: A common theme I’ve read (& heard just the other day from the guy filling in for Mo on ESPN radio), is that ‘Andy needs everything to be perfect around him to succeed’.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

His surroundings have never been perfect. Some aspect of the offense has consistently been deficient, whether it’s a lack of a second reciever, no running game, or poor blocking. There has always been a glaring weakness in the offense.

Andy is a fine QB. I’ve been comfortable/confident with him in many games where he needs to score to win (4th comebacks). Guess what? He’s lead his team down the field often for the go ahead/winning score.

I’m confident they’ll beat Jacksonville. I’m confident it will be largely due to Andy playing well and/or making the plays that need to be made.

Well we've had a good pass-blocking OLine, and an average run game, and AJ Green and Eifert...which is better than 80% of the league...but you have to look at the hidden things. Organizational culture. It's going to be hard for any QB to come in and win here.

Many philosophical reasons - not valuing Centers and Guards. Letting free agents go for Comp picks. History - When you don't win a playoff win for 26 years...you EXPECT to lose.

A new coach has probably 3-4 years to come in and change the culture. Beyond that...he just becomes part of the existing losing cultural timeline. Marvin IS now a big part of the 26+ year playoff drought.

People say IF Aaron Rodgers were here we'd win. Yes - IF current Packers incarnation of Rodgers was here, we'd win...but IF the Bengals drafted him...he likely wouldn't have turned out as good. That's the hidden.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-03-2017, 01:38 PM)BMK Wrote: I honestly believe that Dalton is a good quarterback that under the right circumstances could be very good. I think if he was the type of leader that naturally motivates and raises the level of those around him, a hallmark of all good leaders,  he could be exceptional. He doesn't lack football skills, he lacks leadership skills and I believe to a degree, the whole team suffers for it.

In a way I agree, but this is more of a Bengals culture issue...not a Dalton exclusive issue. Think about the type of players the Bengals draft: Dalton, Gio, AJ Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Leon Hall, Joseph, Whitworth, Eifert...all good players and hard workers...but not a rah-rah guy among them. 

They also tend to discourage players from speaking out in any way. I can't remember many specifics, but I do remember guys like Hill and Burfict getting smacked down by Marv (or Hue) for showing fire verbally. Isn't that a leadership trait? Marv is always preaching about guys taking a leadership role, when (a) he himself is a poor leader and (b) they seemingly discourage any form of aggressive leadership. 

So the problem is two-fold. They draft these quiet lunch-pail guys, ask them to step up and be vocal leaders, then seem to discourage it when they actually do try. Why this is, idk, but it could have to do with our leaders in the past speaking out against Mike Brown. Maybe that's why they target the quiet (and loyal) guys in the draft. Could also be yet another reason they avoid FA.

(11-03-2017, 04:47 PM)BMK Wrote: I was saying you forgot about AJ's frustration and rant after the Houston game about him not getting the ball. AJ is by far my favorite player, and I'm sure he has the utmost respect and admiration for Andy.  But, lets not lose sight of the fact that presently, AJ depends very much on Dalton for him to be successful. What do you think he's going to say?  I was also saying that if AJ felt he had to say what he said this week, he pretty much made my point. You'd think that would already be understood and accepted by the team and not need publicly stated. 

That wasn't aimed at Andy, that was aimed at Zampese. Considering that Green led the mutiny against Zampese and has also called out the o-line (both could affect Green's success as much as Dalton) I don't see why Green wouldn't call out Dalton if he supposedly hated him. I think it's time we all admit that AJ most certainly seems to be an Andy fan. He's gone completely out of his way to repeatedly promote his guy, and they're friends off the field.

(11-04-2017, 09:18 AM)Devils Advocate Wrote: A common theme I’ve read (& heard just the other day from the guy filling in for Mo on ESPN radio), is that ‘Andy needs everything to be perfect around him to succeed’.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

His surroundings have never been perfect. Some aspect of the offense has consistently been deficient, whether it’s a lack of a second reciever, no running game, or poor blocking. There has always been a glaring weakness in the offense.

Andy is a fine QB. I’ve been comfortable/confident with him in many games where he needs to score to win (4th comebacks). Guess what? He’s lead his team down the field often for the go ahead/winning score.

I’m confident they’ll beat Jacksonville. I’m confident it will be largely due to Andy playing well and/or making the plays that need to be made.

Amen to that. He's had a bad run game for almost his entire tenure (sans 2014 - when he saw a glut of injuries at receiver), he's very rarely had a quality #2 WR, Eifert has mostly been injured, AJ Green himself has missed 10 games in 2014 and 2016 combined, our o-line has been a train wreck for 2 years now, and Dalton has produced solid numbers through all of it.

(11-04-2017, 10:12 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well we've had a good pass-blocking OLine, and an average run game, and AJ Green and Eifert...which is better than 80% of the league...but you have to look at the hidden things. Organizational culture. It's going to be hard for any QB to come in and win here.

Many philosophical reasons - not valuing Centers and Guards. Letting free agents go for Comp picks. History - When you don't win a playoff win for 26 years...you EXPECT to lose.

A new coach has probably 3-4 years to come in and change the culture. Beyond that...he just becomes part of the existing losing cultural timeline. Marvin IS now a big part of the 26+ year playoff drought.

People say IF Aaron Rodgers were here we'd win. Yes - IF current Packers incarnation of Rodgers was here, we'd win...but IF the Bengals drafted him...he likely wouldn't have turned out as good. That's the hidden.

Great post. I don't think Dalton will ever win with the organization. I'd love to see him go elsewhere at this point. 

I'll just put it this way: I have more faith in Andy's ability to win playoff games elsewhere than I have faith that the Bengals organization will ever get it together.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-04-2017, 11:00 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'll just put it this way: I have more faith in Andy's ability to win playoff games elsewhere than I have faith that the Bengals organization will ever get it together.

Amen

I'd bet a large sum of money AD could go to another team and win it all. A team that would build around his and the other players strengths and draft and sign FA's accordingly. Value the offensive line and on and on.

The Bengals draft players and demand they fit into their system and ignore FA's basically all together.

Likewise there's no doubt whatsoever if we had drafted Brady in 2000 or whatever he would not be the Brady we know today ! Until he went to another team anyways.

This is a dysfunctional, zero accountability, losing culture that cannot build a winner. We badly need a total turn over of coaching staff and a complete culture change.