The Death Penalty

[GMDino]

Listening to "Death Row Stories" on HLN.

It makes me even more against the death penalty.

States can't even figure out a way to kill the prisoner but insist on experimenting on them as they try to find new ways.

I'm not surprised that some still support it as they want vengeance, not justice, but I just can't support it except MAYBE in the most extreme cases and only then if there is a humane way to do it.  Maybe.

[BigPapaKain]

Pedophiles need the death penalty, for sure.

Traitors as well.

Murderers - depends on if there is any chance of rehabilitation. Your crime of passion murders maybe not so much. Your Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer style murderers; straight to the chair.

[*Nately120*]

I have recently said that I find support for the death penalty and "speedy trials" and executions to be pretty alarming given how we are simultaneously hearing some of the most influential people in the country openly state that our departments of justice are corrupt and knowingly persecute people.

[GMDino]

(06-02-2023, 11:37 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Pedophiles need the death penalty, for sure.

Traitors as well.

Murderers - depends on if there is any chance of rehabilitation. Your crime of passion murders maybe not so much. Your Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer style murderers; straight to the chair.

Two good examples of pretty clear cut (especially Dahmer) convictions.

Although it does seem Dahmer was "rehabilitated" in prison I don't think he should ever have been released.  Bundy was a psychopath who was unsaveable I believe.

[*Nately120*]

(06-02-2023, 11:37 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Pedophiles need the death penalty, for sure.

Traitors as well.

I'd have an easier time agreeing with this if the terms pedo and child groomer and sex trafficker and traitor weren't just used to label pretty much anyone you disagree with these days.  I realize calling someone these things and legal conviction are two different things, but I also feel like we might need to dial back the zeal we have for killing people who "deserve it."

I may need to step back from the internet for a bit.  I just feel like we're doing a lot of labeling of people and asking the government to eliminate them for the good of society, and we clearly have a tenuous grasp or a lack of interesting in grasping who and what is really dangerous. 


EDIT - I'll add I'm not making legal decisions here or saying right/wrong.  I'm just pointing out that our society has a possibly unhealthy zeal for the concept of killing people for good reasons.

[Stewy]

(06-02-2023, 11:37 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Pedophiles need the death penalty, for sure.

Traitors as well.

Murderers - depends on if there is any chance of rehabilitation. Your crime of passion murders maybe not so much. Your Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer style murderers; straight to the chair.

I will preface my next comments with the following:  I am very concerned about minority bias amongst the police, and not just whiteo n black bias, but Police (of any ethnicity) against minority bias.  There are FAR too many stories of people serving long terms and DNA evidence coming to light to clear them or set them up for a new trial, AND at the same time those individuals NOT getting parole or new trials even with Prosecutor support.  One innocent person going to their death is too many.  Period.

Exceptions:  
Multi Offense Pedofiles - exception if they agree to be studied and not in comfort but asa lab rat
Serial Killers - same as above - Bundy needed to be studied
Lifer Convict Request - very dicey I know, but if they want to die either via remorse, restitution, perceived justice or they are just wacky, then why not?

That's it, and certainly NOT traitors, considering how politics are today.

[*Nately120*]

(06-02-2023, 12:05 PM)Stewy Wrote: That's it, and certainly NOT traitors, considering how politics are today.

That's another thing that might calm down if politics ever returns to a slightly more normal place.  Right now there are a lot of influential people talking about how this group is dangerous and needs to be incarcerated/eliminated and this group is being unfairly treated and needs to be pardoned/condoned.  Our inability as a society to agree upon what is criminal or dangerous might not warrant bi-partisan support for the death penalty. 

Every day we see how easy it is for the national narrative to convince people that specific groups are dangerous, or that specific groups are totally 100% A-OK.  

[Stewy]

(06-02-2023, 12:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: That's another thing that might calm down if politics ever returns to a slightly more normal place.  Right now there are a lot of influential people talking about how this group is dangerous and needs to be incarcerated/eliminated and this group is being unfairly treated and needs to be pardoned/condoned.  Our inability as a society to agree upon what is criminal or dangerous might not warrant bi-partisan support for the death penalty. 

Every day we see how easy it is for the national narrative to convince people that specific groups are dangerous, or that specific groups are totally 100% A-OK.  

I would say that is the biggest risk for those only getting their news from singular sources.  People that only listen to what they want to hear, which is usually extremism on one side or the other.  Both sides want to radicalize and scare the people that listen to them.

This is only a speech from a movie, but the first three minutes of this speech at the end of "The American President" (great movie BTW) are just fantastic and it encapsulates what is wrong with politics today, but it is even worse today as it is both sides.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-__djIQgBJc&ab_channel=LeeHoedl

Quote:"No matter what your problem is, I can guarantee you Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it.  Bob Rumson is only interested in making you afraid of it and telling who's to blame for it.  That ladies and gentlemen is how you win elections."

And that is todays American politics especially for those who have been radicalized to one of the extreme's.  

[*pally*]

(06-02-2023, 11:44 AM)GMDino Wrote: Two good examples of pretty clear cut (especially Dahmer) convictions.

Although it does seem Dahmer was "rehabilitated" in prison I don't think he should ever have been released.  Bundy was a psychopath who was unsaveable I believe.

Jeffrey Dahmer was murdered in prison in 1994.  Are you thinking of John Hinkley Jr?

It always amazes me that so many people who claim to be pro-life are also pro-death penatly.  But then again they are experts at twisting situations to jusitfy their conflicting belief systems

We are supposedly a civilized country.  Civilized people do not put others to death even if they can justify the situation.  Too many defendants are later found to be not guilty.  It is too unevenly ordered and too unevenly followed through on.  Your jail sentence shouldn't come down to the luck of the draw.

The death penalty fails to be a deterrent.

The death penalty should be outlawed.  Anyone still under a death sentence should have their sentence commuted to life w/o parole

And felons who have been released from jail and who have completed probation deserve to have their right to vote restored with the exceptions of people who committed voter fraud, espionage or sedition, or felonies committed while an elected official.

[Eraserhead]

(06-02-2023, 02:36 PM)pally Wrote: The death penalty should be outlawed.  Anyone still under a death sentence should have their sentence commuted to life w/o parole

And felons who have been released from jail and who have completed probation deserve to have their right to vote restored with the exceptions of people who committed voter fraud, espionage or sedition, or felonies committed while an elected official.

I agree with the second sentence,, but disagree with the first one. I think their are crimes worthy of the death penalty. 

I think serial killers and mass shooters are examples of people who has given up their own right to life simply by the fact they took multiple lives of others. I think the death penalty has a place for the most extreme crimes against society,, and think you can easily still be pro-life and have that view.

[GMDino]

(06-02-2023, 02:36 PM)pally Wrote: Jeffrey Dahmer was murdered in prison in 1994.  Are you thinking of John Hinkley Jr?

It always amazes me that so many people who claim to be pro-life are also pro-death penatly.  But then again they are experts at twisting situations to jusitfy their conflicting belief systems

We are supposedly a civilized country.  Civilized people do not put others to death even if they can justify the situation.  Too many defendants are later found to be not guilty.  It is too unevenly ordered and too unevenly followed through on.  Your jail sentence shouldn't come down to the luck of the draw.

The death penalty fails to be a deterrent.

The death penalty should be outlawed.  Anyone still under a death sentence should have their sentence commuted to life w/o parole

And felons who have been released from jail and who have completed probation deserve to have their right to vote restored with the exceptions of people who committed voter fraud, espionage or sedition, or felonies committed while an elected official.

No.  Dahmer had found religion and by the accounts I've seen was a "good" prisoner before he was killed.  I'd have never wanted him back out of that controlled situation and in society alone though.

I agree with all you say but I just can't help but think that some cases are so solid and so abhorrent that there is no need to prolong that person's existence.  In theory.  I just find the way we kill them also to be abhorrent.

[BigPapaKain]

I didn't realize my comment would get much attention so let me elaborate.

Pedophiles - I have zero empathy for anyone who preys on children in any way, shape, or form. I may have at one point considered rehabilitation in the case of a first offender, but that empathy died about 12 years ago for reasons I will not elaborate on (but you can probably figure out with a bit of critical thinking).

Traitors - I don't mean people I don't agree with politically. I mean people who willfully and wantonly caused our country irreparable harm on the global stage or sabotaged our efforts to maintain our own peace. I also include people who try to overthrow the government without just cause (and the lies of politicians are not just cause). You know, ACTUAL traitors. As defined by the Constitution.

Serial killers - you start racking up a body count anywhere near double digits, you're a danger to society and likely far beyond rehabilitation. You've also forfeited your right (in my eyes) at life by snuffing out others. You don't deserve sympathy and you sure as shit don't deserve 3 hot and a cot on my dime. Again, a crime of passion where you do something dumb in the heat of the moment - fine. Serve your sentence and try again. If you try again and murder someone AGAIN, you lose.

[*Nately120*]

I'd be extra leery about executing mass shooters and serial killers due the extra focus and attention that brings the individuals.  People being killed by "the government" can heighten people's emotions and polarize their perceptions of the individuals in question.  I can only speak for myself, but the only person, civilian or officer, that I can name who died on 1/6 is Ashli Babbit, for example (though half credit for knowing a woman who was trampled was wearing a don't tread on me shirt).

I'm sure studies have been done about this, but Charles Manson sitting in prison and being a frail old man likely did more to dispel his mythos than if as soon as they grabbed him they threw him in an electric chair.  But again, I'm not talking right or wrong, I'm just thinking about things that cause extra emotion when it comes to our jittery and angry society.


Oh also, executing mass shooters has the extra bit of oddness because our country is very focused on pointing out how mental illness is the cause of mass shootings and even if we know we're lying to ourselves about it, it's a bad look to execute people we deem mentally ill.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

[CKwi88]

It is probably impossible to quantify, but I imagine that the number of truly irredeemable criminals is fewer than the number of people wrongfully executed.

There's a reason that the majority of developed nations have abolished the death penalty. I find it hard to believe that it would ever be abolished nationwide here though. America loves its violence.

[Arturo Bandini]

In Europe, only Belarus has the death penalty.

[Vas Deferens]

“Just Mercy” - Bryan Stevenson

Read a book.

[Dill]

(06-05-2023, 10:14 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: In Europe, only Belarus has the death penalty.

And I cannot think of a single dictatorship or theocracy which does not have it. 

[Millhouse]

The only reason I am against the death penalty is because we have a flawed justice system. At the same time, I am also in favor of allowing it for extreme cases such as terrorists, home grown or otherwise like Timothy McVeigh for example where there is no doubt they did it.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-02-2023, 02:36 PM)pally Wrote: Jeffrey Dahmer was murdered in prison in 1994.  Are you thinking of John Hinkley Jr?

It always amazes me that so many people who claim to be pro-life are also pro-death penatly.  But then again they are experts at twisting situations to jusitfy their conflicting belief systems

We are supposedly a civilized country.  Civilized people do not put others to death even if they can justify the situation.  Too many defendants are later found to be not guilty.  It is too unevenly ordered and too unevenly followed through on.  Your jail sentence shouldn't come down to the luck of the draw.

The death penalty fails to be a deterrent.

The death penalty should be outlawed.  Anyone still under a death sentence should have their sentence commuted to life w/o parole

And felons who have been released from jail and who have completed probation deserve to have their right to vote restored with the exceptions of people who committed voter fraud, espionage or sedition, or felonies committed while an elected official.

Pro-Life is the name used by people against abortion.  Should I hold you to a pro-choice position on everything?