The Few, the Proud, the White

[GMDino]

I would never have suspected this.

My Uncle was a Marine IN Vietnam (not during).  I have multiple friends who were Marines.  I have never thought of any of them as remotely like this so maybe it is just the "higher ups".

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/31/us/politics/marines-race-general.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Quote:The Few, the Proud, the White: The Marine Corps Balks at Promoting Generals of Color
A respected, combat-tested Black colonel has been passed over three times for promotion to brigadier general. What does his fate say about the Corps?





Col. Anthony Henderson, center, receiving the Legion of Merit award at Camp Pendleton in California in 2016.Credit...Lance Cpl. Tyler Byther/United States Marine Corps

By Helene Cooper

• Aug. 31, 2020
  
  
  

WASHINGTON — All things being equal, Col. Anthony Henderson has the military background that the Marine Corps says it prizes in a general: multiple combat tours, leadership experience and the respect of those he commanded and most who commanded him.

Yet three times he has been passed over for brigadier general, a prominent one-star rank that would put Colonel Henderson on the path to the top tier of Marine Corps leadership. Last year, the Navy secretary, Richard V. Spencer, even added a handwritten recommendation to Colonel Henderson’s candidacy: “Eminently qualified Marine we need now as BG,” he wrote.

But never in its history has the Marine Corps had anyone other than a white man in its most senior leadership posts. Colonel Henderson is Black.

“Tony Henderson has done everything you could do in the Marines except get a hand salute from Jesus Christ himself,” said Milton D. Whitfield Sr., a former Marine gunnery sergeant who served for 21 years.

Proud and fierce in their identity, the Marines have a singular race problem that critics say is rooted in decades of resistance to change. As the nation reels this summer from protests challenging centuries-long perceptions of race, the Marines — who have long cultivated a reputation as the United States’ strongest fighting force — remain an institution where a handful of white men rule over 185,000 white, African-American, Hispanic and Asian men and women.

“It took an act of Congress last year to get them to integrate by gender at the platoon level,” said Representative Anthony G. Brown, Democrat of Maryland and a former Army helicopter pilot. “And now they continue to hold onto that 1950s vision of who Marines are.”





Current and former Marine Corps officials point to Colonel Henderson’s personality as an explanation for why he has been passed over, including what they call his tendency to speak his mind — traits that have not disqualified white Marine colonels.

Since the Marines first admitted African-American troops in 1942, the last military service to do so, only 25 have obtained the rank of general in any form. Not one has made it to the top four-star rank, an honor the Marines have bestowed on 72 white men. Six African-Americans reached lieutenant general, or three stars. The rest have received one or two stars, the majority in areas like logistics, aviation and transport, areas from which the Marine Corps does not choose its senior leadership.



Out of 82 Marine generals overall today, there are six African-American brigadier generals and one African-American major general.





Image
Black Marine recruits receiving equipment at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina in 1943. The Marines first admitted Black troops in 1942, the last military service to do so.Credit...Corbis, via Getty Images
Charles F. Bolden Jr., who would go on to command two Space Shuttle missions before becoming the first African-American to lead NASA, received only two stars in the Marines.

To make it to four stars, a candidate needs combat postings in his background. (The pronoun “his” is apt because no woman has made it to four stars in the Marines, either.) Such a leader would have commanded troops in Iraq or Afghanistan, bearing responsibility for the lives of Marines who shed blood in poppy fields, mountain ranges and desolate desert villages.

The Marine Corps makes exceptions to this only-combat-arms rule when it gives four stars to aviators, including James F. Amos, in 2008, and Gary L. Thomas, in 2018. But they are white men.

It is difficult for those outside the armed services to understand the prestige that comes with becoming a four-star general or admiral. Four-star officers sit on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, oversee an entire branch of the armed services or serve as top officers of a regional command around the world — Centcom, for example, which supervises all American military operations in the Middle East. The commanders directly advise the defense secretary and the president.

For one week beginning Wednesday, the service’s promotion board will meet to consider its next group of generals. For the fourth time, Colonel Henderson is being deliberated. If he does not make it — the results will not be announced for months — his acquaintances say he is likely to leave the Marines.
Colonel Henderson declined to be interviewed for this article.

Largely White Leadership





Image

Marine recruits in February at Parris Island, S.C. About 43 percent of the 1.3 million men and women on active duty are people of color, but that diversity is not reflected in senior leadership of the armed forces.Credit...Hilary Swift for The New York Times

Officially, the Marine Corps says it cares deeply about diversity.
“Only as a unified force, free from discrimination, racial inequality and prejudice, can we fully demonstrate our core values, and serve as the elite war-fighting organization America requires and expects us to be,” Gen. David H. Berger, the Marine Corps commandant, wrote on June 4 in a message to service members, in the wake of the protests that ignited after George Floyd died in the custody of the Minneapolis police.

Since the protests, senior Defense Department officials have begun an internal examination into how to increase the percentage of minority service members in its predominantly white officer corps. One of the steps Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper has announced is to remove the photographs of officer candidates from promotion board hearings.

Over all, the military has long promoted itself as one of the most diverse institutions in the country. 
Indeed, about 43 percent of the 1.3 million men and women on active duty are people of color. But of the 42 most senior commanders in the military — those with four-star ranks in the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard — only two are Black: Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr., the Air Force chief of staff, and Gen. Michael X. Garrett, who leads the Army Forces Command. Gen. Paul M. Nakasone, whose father is a second-generation Japanese-American, leads the United States Cyber Command.

There is only one woman in the group: Gen. Maryanne Miller, the chief of the Air Force’s Air Mobility Command, who is white.





Image

Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr. being sworn in this month as the Air Force chief of staff at the White House. He is the first African-American to hold the top job in the Air Force.Credit...Doug Mills/The New York Times
The Marines have the worst diversity representation in their top ranks. In 2013, the branch released a photo of its six four-star generals, all gathered in desert camouflage at the commandant’s home at the Marine Barracks in Washington: John F. Kelly, Jim Mattis, Joseph F. Dunford Jr., James F. Amos, John R. Allen and John M. Paxton. The men are smiling as they hold their white Marine Corps coffee mugs.

All six have garnered respect across the political spectrum. But to Black Marines, the photo evokes a place where they do not belong.

“Look, I’m a dedicated Marine,” said Mr. Whitfield, the former gunnery sergeant. “But that photo makes me feel like they’re saying, ‘None of you all are good enough to get to the high levels of authority or leadership.’ And I’m ashamed.”

Senior Marine leaders, when questioned about diversity in the officer corps, say they know they have a problem.
“The Marine Corps actually has given this a great deal of thought because we have struggled” with the issue of diversity, said Gen. Kenneth F. McKenzie Jr., one of three four-star Marine generals serving today. But in explaining the absence of anyone but white men in the top positions, Marine officials often first cite the small number of African-American Marines who go into combat arms, the area from which all but one four-star general have risen.

“We need to recognize that the bread and butter of the Marine Corps is combat arms,” said Lt. Gen. David A. Ottignon, the deputy commandant for manpower and reserve affairs. He declined to speak specifically about Colonel Henderson, 53, citing privacy and personnel concerns. He said 63 percent of African-Americans in the Marine Corps were in support areas like logistics and engineering, 22 percent were in aviation and only 15 percent were in combat arms.

Colonel Henderson is in combat arms.

“Tony’s got an incredible record — he should be a general officer,” said Paul J. Kennedy, a retired major general who led the Marine Corps Recruiting Command.
He ‘Kept Us Alive’





Image

Colonel Henderson in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, in 2008. He has described commanding Marines in southern Afghanistan in the most vicious fighting he had ever seen.Credit...United States Marine Corps
The colonel was commissioned as a second lieutenant in 1989. By 1994, he had a law degree from Southern University Law Center in Baton Rouge, La., and was headed to be a staff judge advocate — a lawyer for the Corps.


But Colonel Henderson soon asked to move over to combat arms, a transition that Marines who know him said demonstrated that he wanted to fight with his men, bearing the risk and responsibility that accompany it.
Colonel Henderson moved through the ranks at a lightning pace. He was a rifle platoon commander and was promoted to captain six years after joining the Marines. Five years later, in 2000, he made major. Three years after that, he was leading Marines in Iraq as the “XO” — executive officer — for the Third Battalion, Seventh Marines. After Iraq, Colonel Henderson was sent to Afghanistan.

Colonel Henderson “was hard not to like,” said Cpl. Josh Sams, who had the colonel as a battalion commander on his first deployment to Afghanistan in 2008. To the Marine, then 22, Colonel Henderson stood out like an action figure. He did not spend his time barking at his Marines about grooming standards or attire and instead barked at them about how to stay alive.

At one point, Colonel Henderson challenged the entire battalion to a fight after a hazing episode in the barracks rippled through the ranks. Some of the Marines who reported to him called him “silverback,” a reference that is both complimentary and racist.

In an interview published in 2018 by Herocare, a benefits organization, Colonel Henderson spoke of commanding Marines in southern Afghanistan in the most vicious fighting he said he had ever seen.

As the commander of the First Battalion, Sixth Marine Regiment, Colonel Henderson had to come up with a plan to overrun a Taliban stronghold in the Garmsir District known as Jugroom Fort. It was defended by about 200 to 400 Taliban members who had been fighting the British in Helmand Province, a new flash point in the war.

Colonel Henderson led his Marines through three days of intense battle in blistering heat. By the end, the Taliban fighters withdrew toward Pakistan. It was a short-lived victory for the American-led NATO troops in Afghanistan, and for Colonel Henderson’s Marines as well. The insurgent group would return in force in the following months, bloodying the influx of American troops deployed under President Barack Obama’s surge in late 2009.

“After all was said and done, 1,200 Marines went over and 1,198 came back. Only one killed by the enemy,” said Lance Cpl. Nathan Leggs, a machine-gunner under Colonel Henderson in Garmsir. “BBC News reported we pushed 170 firefights in the first 35 days. His plan of attack kept us alive throughout all of those battles.”





Image

Marines searching a bazaar for weapons in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, in 2008. As the commander of the First Battalion, Sixth Marine Regiment, Colonel Henderson sought to overrun a Taliban stronghold in the Garmsir District. Credit...Tyler Hicks/The New York Times
In 2012, four years after serving under Colonel Henderson, Corporal Sams, then on his third deployment, stepped on a roadside bomb in Helmand Province. The bomb took both of his legs and two fingers. Two months later, he woke up in his bed in the intensive care unit at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center in suburban Washington, and saw Colonel Henderson, alone, standing over him.

Corporal Sams, on a heavy dose of painkillers, was shocked that his former commander had come to visit. “I couldn’t believe he remembered me,” Corporal Sams said. His head was itching and he could not reach to scratch it, so Colonel Henderson did so for him.

“You’re one of my warriors,” Colonel Henderson told him, before leaving his hospital room.

Colonel Henderson’s career in the Marine Corps had in the meantime proceeded at a brisk pace, as he carried out one high-profile assignment after another. When he received command of the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit in 2014, the prevailing wisdom in the Corps — especially among African-Americans — was that here, finally, was a Black Marine who was going to make it to the top.

Except it didn’t happen. Once he was within sight of his first star, Marine officials started saying that Colonel Henderson was difficult to work with. There is nothing in Colonel Henderson’s official record that suggests that, according to interviews with white, Black and Asian Marine officers. But in the corridors outside promotion board conference rooms, that was accepted as conventional wisdom.

“The consensus was that Tony had to sand off the rough edges,” said retired Col. Thomas Hobbs, who was at amphibious warfare school with Colonel Henderson and who spoke with people involved in Colonel Henderson’s last promotion board. “Which is code for ‘he’s too Black, in my opinion.’ ”


Many African-American Marine officers believe that to succeed in the Marines, Black officers must find a way to tell white officials what they want to hear. Those who do, they say, are seen favorably.
By all accounts, Colonel Henderson does not do that.

“Tony is a straight shooter, who says what he thinks,” said Mr. Whitfield, the retired gunnery sergeant who went on to self-publish a book this year called “African-American Senior Marine Corps Leadership: Standing on the Shoulders of Giants.” “And that is what they are fearful of.”





Image

Colonel Henderson during a parade in New Orleans last year. He has moved through the ranks of the Marines at a lightning pace. Credit...United States Marine Corps
Mr. Kennedy, a Marine combat veteran who is white, echoed that view. “The things not in his record” are what have kept Colonel Henderson from getting that star, he said in an interview. “I think weak souls do not hold up against Tony Henderson. The guy is smart, forceful, not a braggart, but when you are in his presence, he is very confident, and probably withering to certain people, and they feel intimidated.”

Black Marines point to what they consider an uneven standard when it comes to promotions for white Marine officers compared with their African-American counterparts.

Brig. Gen. Rick A. Uribe, who is white, is up for promotion in September to major general, despite a rebuke in 2018 for treating his aide like a personal servant while he was deployed in Iraq.

That year, the Pentagon’s inspector general reported that General Uribe violated ethics rules when he requested or allowed his aide to pick up his laundry, deliver meals, arrange for delivery of his prescription toothpaste to Iraq and handle his personal correspondence. On multiple occasions, General Uribe also ordered her to stand next to gym equipment to reserve it for his use, sometimes making her wait up to 40 minutes.


To get ahead in the Marines, many Black senior officers “have to adjust themselves in a way that’s nonthreatening to whites,” said Mr. Hobbs, the retired Marine colonel.


“Tony doesn’t do that,” Mr. Hobbs said. “He’s just a proud Black guy.”

Thomas Gibbons-Neff and Eric Schmitt contributed reporting.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

That's bullshit (that he's not getting promoted, not the article being bullshit).

The military is a meritocracy (or rather, it should be, if it no longer is) and this race issue is getting out of hand, if it is now extending to the military.

[*bfine32*]

11% of Marines are Black

9% of Marine Generals are Black

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-01-2020, 08:11 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: That's bullshit (that he's not getting promoted, not the article being bullshit).

The military is a meritocracy (or rather, it should be, if it no longer is) and this race issue is getting out of hand, if it is now extending to the military.

The military is a meritocracy, at least as close as we get in this world.  Don't make the mistake of assuming this woman doesn't have an agenda or is giving you the full story or an unvarnished truth.

(09-01-2020, 08:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 11% of Marines are Black

9% of Marine Generals are Black

While certain people will demand a link for this, if it is true the thread premise is officially dead.  Although a better comparison would be the percentage of Marine officers who are black vs. the percentage of Marine generals.

As an aside, if this guy thinks he's being treated unfairly, just release his OER's to the press.

[GMDino]

(09-01-2020, 08:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 11% of Marines are Black

9% of Marine Generals are Black

6 out of 82 are black per the article.

That also does change what the article says:

"never in its history has the Marine Corps had anyone other than a white man in its most senior leadership posts."


O

(09-01-2020, 08:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The military is a meritocracy, at least as close as we get in this world.  Don't make the mistake of assuming this woman doesn't have an agenda or is giving you the full story or an unvarnished truth.


While certain people will demand a link for this, if it is true the thread premise is officially dead.  Although a better comparison would be the percentage of Marine officers who are black vs. the percentage of Marine generals.

As an aside, if this guy thinks he's being treated unfairly, just release his OER's to the press.

Here's another article (sorry it's still by a woman) about the same subject.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/us/politics/military-minorities-leadership.html

The "premise of the article" that a very qualified black man has been passed over multiple times while white men have been promoted to a position.

The group think talking about percentages and assuming the author has an agenda because, well I assume you two have your reasons for not just simply reading and moving on but rather actively arguing that there may be "other reasons" for it, is interesting.

Not shocking.  Just interesting.

The article is about one very qualified black man and the lack of black leadership at the top. The mob has glossed over that.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-02-2020, 08:50 AM)GMDino Wrote: 6 out of 82 are black per the article.

That also does change what the article says:

"never in its history has the Marine Corps had anyone other than a white man in its most senior leadership posts."

And?  I know you posted this race baiting article, it doesn't mean you have to defend it after its obvious flaws were laid bare.

Quote:Here's another article (sorry it's still by a woman) about the same subject.

Why are you sorry it's written by a woman?

Quote:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/us/politics/military-minorities-leadership.html

The "premise of the article" that a very qualified black man has been passed over multiple times while white men have been promoted to a position.

Unless you have proof that the "white" officers were less qualified or the black officer was passed over because he is black this is meaningless.

Quote:The group think talking about percentages and assuming the author has an agenda because, well I assume you two have your reasons for not just simply reading and moving on but rather actively arguing that there may be "other reasons" for it, is interesting.

Well, the author clearly does have an agenda because her entire article is supposition backed up by zero facts other than, "the Marine Corps has never has a black person as the highest ranking officer".

Quote:Not shocking.  Just interesting.

Oh wait, you just posted this to be read and not commented on?  

Quote:The article is about one very qualified black man and the lack of black leadership at the top.  The mob has glossed over that.

The "mob".  You crack me up.  The article is alleging that this man is not being promoted because he is black.  Pointing out how the numbers do not support this thinly veiled allegation is not "glossing over" anything, it's exposing the obvious flaws in the article's main position.  You didn't write it so I don't understand why you're being so sensitive about it.

Maybe she can write an article about how a black person has never been the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff next? 

[GMDino]

(09-02-2020, 10:39 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: And?  I know you posted this race baiting article, it doesn't mean you have to defend it after its obvious flaws were laid bare.






Why are you sorry it's written by a woman?



Unless you have proof that the "white" officers were less qualified or the black officer was passed over because he is black this is meaningless.



Well, the author clearly does have an agenda because her entire article is supposition backed up by zero facts other than, "the Marine Corps has never has a black person as the highest ranking officer".



Oh wait, you just posted this to be read and not commented on?  


The "mob".  You crack me up.  The article is alleging that this man is not being promoted because he is black.  Pointing out how the numbers do not support this thinly veiled allegation is not "glossing over" anything, it's exposing the obvious flaws in the article's main position.  You didn't write it so I don't understand why you're being so sensitive about it.

Maybe she can write an article about how a black person has never been the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff next? 

Again it is interesting that you find it "race baiting" rather than informative about how race seems to be treated in the leadership positions of the marines.

I welcome thoughts on the situation.  So far they have been "This woman" might have an agenda and vague references to percentages that have nothing to do with the premise of the article and the leadership in the Marines.  There needs to be no other fact than their has never been a black in a major leadership position.  Do you have an alternative reason why?  Or do you just want to accuse me of "race baiting"? Because it was meant to create discussion about how minorities are being treated/handled in the Marines...that it is a sensitive subject shouldn't be a surprise in PNR. And the only people it would provoke (if I get accused of that again) would be people who believe that this is the right thing for the Marines to do in keeping minorities out of their top leadership positions.



(That multiple posters have the same idea and gone after the OP is what I was told was the "group think" we are trying to avoid.  )

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-02-2020, 11:04 AM)GMDino Wrote: Again it is interesting that you find it "race baiting" rather than informative about how race seems to be treated in the leadership positions of the marines.

Let's analyze the data shall we?  The article's premise is that black is not being promoted solely because he is black.  To back up this assertion she offers exactly zero pieces of hard evidence.  How could anyone view this as anything but race baiting?

Quote:I welcome thoughts on the situation.  So far they have been "This woman"

Wait, is she not a woman?  Did I accidentally misgender her?  If it was a guy I would have called him a "guy".  Quite trying to throw baseless accusations at everyone who disagrees with you.  This isn't the oppression Olympics.

Quote:might have an agenda and vague references to percentages that have nothing to do with the premise of the article and the leadership in the Marines. 

Wait, the fact that the percentage of black generals in the Marine Corps is pretty much identical to the percentage of black people serving in the Marine Corps has "nothing to do" with an article about a black man not being promoted to Brigadier General because he is black?

Seriously?   

Quote:There needs to be no other fact than their has never been a black in a major leadership position.  Do you have an alternative reason why?  Or do you just want to accuse me of "race baiting"?

I hate to break this to you, but being a general is a major leadership position.  The article mentions that there has never been a black Commandant, which is true.  There are myriad possible reasons why this is the case, but I'm not the one making any assertions here, the article is.  If you're going to make an assertion the burden is on you to prove it.  This article fails in that regard, utterly.

Quote:(That multiple posters have the same idea and gone after the OP is what I was told was the "group think" we are trying to avoid.  )

Or, just maybe, three people noticed the same glaring flaw in an article with a flawed foundation and a shoddy conclusion?  If three people say 2+2=4 is that "group think"? 

[*bfine32*]

(09-02-2020, 08:50 AM)GMDino Wrote: 6 out of 82 are black per the article.

That also does change what the article says:

"never in its history has the Marine Corps had anyone other than a white man in its most senior leadership posts."


O



Here's another article (sorry it's still by a woman) about the same subject.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/25/us/politics/military-minorities-leadership.html

The "premise of the article" that a very qualified black man has been passed over multiple times while white men have been promoted to a position.

The group think talking about percentages and assuming the author has an agenda because, well I assume you two have your reasons for not just simply reading and moving on but rather actively arguing that there may be "other reasons" for it, is interesting.

Not shocking.  Just interesting.

The article is about one very qualified black man and the lack of black leadership at the top.  The mob has glossed over that.

It's actually 7. 6 BGs, 1 MG

6+1=7

WTS, the whole premise that the military is racist when it comes to advancement is absurd. If I showed you where a very qualified white man was passed over for promotion would it matter to you?

Bottom line. Diversity IRT race is promoted throughout all branches of service.

[Dill]

(09-02-2020, 11:17 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Let's analyze the data shall we?  The article's premise is that black is not being promoted solely because he is black.  To back up this assertion she offers exactly zero pieces of hard evidence.  How could anyone view this as anything but race baiting?

Here is a bit of "data" from the article--72 white 4 stars. No black.

I think the article's "premise" is that there is a diversity problem in the Marine Corps at the 4-star level.
What do you make of these statements from the article:

The Marines have the worst diversity representation in their top ranks. In 2013, the branch released a photo of its six four-star generals, all gathered in desert camouflage at the commandant’s home at the Marine Barracks in Washington: John F. Kelly, Jim Mattis, Joseph F. Dunford Jr., James F. Amos, John R. Allen and John M. Paxton. The men are smiling as they hold their white Marine Corps coffee mugs.

All six have garnered respect across the political spectrum. But to Black Marines, the photo evokes a place where they do not belong.

“Look, I’m a dedicated Marine,” said Mr. Whitfield, the former gunnery sergeant. “But that photo makes me feel like they’re saying, ‘None of you all are good enough to get to the high levels of authority or leadership.’ And I’m ashamed.”

Senior Marine leaders, when questioned about diversity in the officer corps, say they know they have a problem.
“The Marine Corps actually has given this a great deal of thought because we have struggled” with the issue of diversity, said Gen. Kenneth F. McKenzie Jr., one of three four-star Marine generals serving today. But in explaining the absence of anyone but white men in the top positions, Marine officials often first cite the small number of African-American Marines who go into combat arms, the area from which all but one four-star general have risen.

Is this a false report--Senior Marine leaders DO NOT say they have a diversity problem? If they do admit this, then what counts as "hard evidence" for them? Or you, if you don't agree with them? Would "Senior Marine Leaders" consider an article describing this problem they admit to "race baiting"? If they are genuinely concerned about the problem, and don't want it swept under the rug, why wouldn't they find the article helpful?

Then there is this from the article:

Mr. Kennedy, a Marine combat veteran who is white, echoed that view. “The things not in his record” are what have kept Colonel Henderson from getting that star, he said in an interview. “I think weak souls do not hold up against Tony Henderson. The guy is smart, forceful, not a braggart, but when you are in his presence, he is very confident, and probably withering to certain people, and they feel intimidated.”

Black Marines point to what they consider an uneven standard when it comes to promotions for white Marine officers compared with their African-American counterparts.

Brig. Gen. Rick A. Uribe, who is white, is up for promotion in September to major general, despite a rebuke in 2018 for treating his aide like a personal servant while he was deployed in Iraq.

This testimony and this example doesn't seem like negligible support. Is Mr Kennedy misquoted? Does he have an "agenda"? Is Uribe's record is falsified? If not, could it be consistent with a double standard?

[Dill]

(09-02-2020, 12:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's actually 7. 6 BGs, 1 MG

6+1=7

WTS, the whole premise that the military is racist when it comes to advancement is absurd. If I showed you where a very qualified white man was passed over for promotion would it matter to you?

Bottom line. Diversity IRT race is promoted throughout all branches of service.

No one, not Dino and not Helen Cooper, has said the military is "racist."

So that is not "the whole premise" of Cooper's article.

It is because "diversity" is "promoted throughout all branches of service" that the senior leadership of the Corps admit they have a problem and want to address it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-02-2020, 01:40 PM)Dill Wrote: Here is a bit of "data" from the article--72 white 4 stars. No black.

I think the article's "premise" is that there is a diversity problem in the Marine Corps at the 4-star level.
What do you make of these statements from the article:

You think wrong then, as the article is almost entirely about a Colonel who is trying to promote to Brig. General.

Quote:The Marines have the worst diversity representation in their top ranks. In 2013, the branch released a photo of its six four-star generals, all gathered in desert camouflage at the commandant’s home at the Marine Barracks in Washington: John F. Kelly, Jim Mattis, Joseph F. Dunford Jr., James F. Amos, John R. Allen and John M. Paxton. The men are smiling as they hold their white Marine Corps coffee mugs.

All six have garnered respect across the political spectrum. But to Black Marines, the photo evokes a place where they do not belong.

“Look, I’m a dedicated Marine,” said Mr. Whitfield, the former gunnery sergeant. “But that photo makes me feel like they’re saying, ‘None of you all are good enough to get to the high levels of authority or leadership.’ And I’m ashamed.”

Senior Marine leaders, when questioned about diversity in the officer corps, say they know they have a problem.
“The Marine Corps actually has given this a great deal of thought because we have struggled” with the issue of diversity, said Gen. Kenneth F. McKenzie Jr., one of three four-star Marine generals serving today. But in explaining the absence of anyone but white men in the top positions, Marine officials often first cite the small number of African-American Marines who go into combat arms, the area from which all but one four-star general have risen.

Is this a false report--Senior Marine leaders DO NOT say they have a diversity problem? If they do admit this, then what counts as "hard evidence" for them? Or you, if you don't agree with them? Would "Senior Marine Leaders" consider an article describing this problem they admit to "race baiting"? If they are genuinely concerned about the problem, and don't want it swept under the rug, why wouldn't they find the article helpful?

Probably because the article is not about four star generals?

Quote:Then there is this from the article:

Mr. Kennedy, a Marine combat veteran who is white, echoed that view. “The things not in his record” are what have kept Colonel Henderson from getting that star, he said in an interview. “I think weak souls do not hold up against Tony Henderson. The guy is smart, forceful, not a braggart, but when you are in his presence, he is very confident, and probably withering to certain people, and they feel intimidated.”

That's great.  It's also his opinion.  It is interesting that what he's saying is holding the gentlemen back, in his opinion, has nothing to do with his ethnicity.

Quote:Black Marines point to what they consider an uneven standard when it comes to promotions for white Marine officers compared with their African-American counterparts.

Brig. Gen. Rick A. Uribe, who is white, is up for promotion in September to major general, despite a rebuke in 2018 for treating his aide like a personal servant while he was deployed in Iraq.

Uhm, everyone comes up for promotion in a set time frame. 

Quote:This testimony and this example doesn't seem like negligible support. Is Mr Kennedy misquoted? Does he have an "agenda"? Is Uribe's record is falsified? If not, could it be consistent with a double standard?

Well, since nothing you just posted either, A. says what you claim it says, or B. reinforces in any way the article's premise (that the Colonel in question is being held back due to being a black man), I'd have to generally (no pun intended) answer no.

[Dill]

(09-02-2020, 02:55 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You think wrong then, as the article is almost entirely about a Colonel who is trying to promote to Brig. General.
Probably because the article is not about four star generals?[/size]
That's great.  It's also his opinion.  It is interesting that what he's saying is holding the gentlemen back, in his opinion, has nothing to do with his ethnicity.
Uhm, everyone comes up for promotion in a set time frame. 
Well, since nothing you just posted either, A. says what you claim it says, or B. reinforces in any way the article's premise (that the Colonel in question is being held back due to being a black man), I'd have to generally (no pun intended) answer no.

These quotes from the article connect the promotion of this particular colonel to the issue of diversity at "the top," hence the discussion of 4 stars.

Colonel Henderson’s career in the Marine Corps had in the meantime proceeded at a brisk pace, as he carried out one high-profile assignment after another. When he received command of the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit in 2014, the prevailing wisdom in the Corps — especially among African-Americans — was that here, finally, was a Black Marine who was going to make it to the top.

Except it didn’t happen. Once he was within sight of his first star, Marine officials started saying that Colonel Henderson was difficult to work with. There is nothing in Colonel Henderson’s official record that suggests that, according to interviews with white, Black and Asian Marine officers. But in the corridors outside promotion board conference rooms, that was accepted as conventional wisdom.

So the article is about Colonel Henderson's apparently blocked track to "the top."

And you are not going to respond to my question about the Corps' own admission that it has a diversity problem, because 1) it doesn't "reinforce the article's premise" that a promising Colonel has suddenly been sidetracked for unclear reasons; or 2) the quote about the diversity problem doesn't "claim what I said it says"?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-02-2020, 03:24 PM)Dill Wrote: So the article is about Colonel Henderson's apparently blocked track to "the top."

No, the article is about him not making Brig. General.  Do you know how hard it is to make one star, let alone four?  If he got promoted to one star would we need the article rewritten every time he doesn't make the next rank?  The entire premise of this article is based solely son supposition. 

Quote:And you are not going to respond to my question about the Corps' own admission that it has a diversity problem, because

I don't generally address PR statements in general, they don't exist to inform, they exist to placate.

Quote:1) it doesn't "reinforce the article's premise that a promising Colonel has suddenly been sidetracked for unclear reasons;

I thought the article stated the reason was clear.

Quote:or 2) the quote about the diversity problem doesn't "claim what I said it says"?

Let's say the Corps does have a "diversity problem".  Does that mean this particular person's case is indicative of it?  Provide one piece of solid evidence that backs up this article's claims about this particular Colonel.  Most officers don't make Colonel, much less one star General.  Quite honestly, due to the amount of politics that are involved in making O7 and above it's very likely this guy pissed of the wrong person, having nothing to do with his being black.


As an aside I wonder how many, if any, Marine Corps generals are Hispanic or Asian and if not why that's not a problem?

[*bfine32*]

(09-02-2020, 01:49 PM)Dill Wrote: No one, not Dino and not Helen Cooper, has said the military is "racist."

So that is not "the whole premise" of Cooper's article.

It is because "diversity" is "promoted throughout all branches of service" that the senior leadership of the Corps admit they have a problem and want to address it.

And I showed where marines are promoted to the highest levels in keeping with their total number in the ranks.

The premise of Cooper's article was to get folks to react exactly as Dino did.

[GMDino]

(09-02-2020, 04:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And I showed where marines are promoted to the highest levels in keeping with their total number in the ranks.

The premise of Cooper's article was to get folks to react exactly as Dino did.

Dino reacted by being surprised that the Marines have never had a black in their highest positions of leadership.

How did bfine react?

[*PhilHos*]

(09-02-2020, 04:43 PM)GMDino Wrote: Dino reacted by being surprised that the Marines have never had a black in their highest positions of leadership.

How did bfine react?

"a black"? 

[*bfine32*]

(09-01-2020, 09:22 AM)GMDino Wrote: I would never have suspected this.

My Uncle was a Marine IN Vietnam (not during).  I have multiple friends who were Marines.  I have never thought of any of them as remotely like this so maybe it is just the "higher ups".

(09-02-2020, 04:43 PM)GMDino Wrote: Dino reacted by being surprised that the Marines have never had a black in their highest positions of leadership.

How did bfine react?

no you didn't.

Titling a thread The Few, The Proud, The White is exactly was the author hoped to achieve.

You've been presented with facts on how it's not just true, but yet now all you got is "Well they never had anyone but a white guy as their highest".

The article is about a COL trying to get to the lowest rank of GO

[fredtoast]

(09-02-2020, 04:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And I showed where marines are promoted to the highest levels in keeping with their total number in the ranks.

No you didn't.  It is 72 white and zero African-Americans at the highest level. (since the corps was integrated)

Also the numbers I find (most recent 2016) show the Corps to be 11.5% black, but only 5% of officers are black.  And according to this article only 8.5% of generals are black.  Since 8.5% is 35% lower than 11.5% that means they are NOT being promotes at the same rate as their total numbers in the ranks.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-02-2020, 05:11 PM)PhilHos Wrote: "a black"? 

Yea, peak cringe there.

(09-02-2020, 05:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: no you didn't.

Titling a thread The Few, The Proud, The White is exactly was the author hoped to achieve.

Yeah, I think Dino shot his argument in the foot with his thread title.  But you are correct, this is, IMO, exactly what the author was angling for with this article full of nothing but supposition.

Quote:You've been presented with facts on how it's not just true, but yet now all you got is "Well they never had anyone but a white guy as their highest".

Not to mention how very, very few officers ever make Colonel, much less Brigadier General. 

Quote:The article is about a COL trying to get to the lowest rank of GO

Well, according to some here it's about four star Generals and how the Corps is actively preventing black men, or women, from reaching that rank.

I wonder why they don't mention that Colin Powell was Head of the JCoS?  I guess the Army is just way less racist than the Marine Corps.