The Gig Economy

[Belsnickel]

So I'm not sure how much anyone here has been paying attention to this, but Uber and Lyft drivers in several places are on strike. I don't pay a ton of attention to news about them as I have never utilized their services, but it got me thinking. The drivers are on strike due to decreasing wages and little to no job security. To me, this seems like it would be an inherent problem with most gig economy situations.

Temporary employees, or gig employees, are compensated less on average that permanent/direct employees. They aren't afforded the same protections as regular employees. When there are so many of them, they increase supply to the level that can exceed demand, which will push the wages down.

At the risk of sounding unsympathetic to their plight, why should any of them be surprised? This is also the same sort of pattern we have seen with many corporate behemoths where they have come in, shut down local run businesses (taxi services in this instance), and now are in the phase of giving their employees the shaft because they simply can.

Am I missing something here? Is there some reason I should be more shocked about this? Don't get me wrong, I want everyone to earn a fair wage, but this is the system as it has been working for a long time. It feels a lot like the people striking are frogs giving rides to scorpions.

[Yojimbo]

(05-08-2019, 01:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So I'm not sure how much anyone here has been paying attention to this, but Uber and Lyft drivers in several places are on strike. I don't pay a ton of attention to news about them as I have never utilized their services, but it got me thinking. The drivers are on strike due to decreasing wages and little to no job security. To me, this seems like it would be an inherent problem with most gig economy situations.

Temporary employees, or gig employees, are compensated less on average that permanent/direct employees. They aren't afforded the same protections as regular employees. When there are so many of them, they increase supply to the level that can exceed demand, which will push the wages down.

At the risk of sounding unsympathetic to their plight, why should any of them be surprised? This is also the same sort of pattern we have seen with many corporate behemoths where they have come in, shut down local run businesses (taxi services in this instance), and now are in the phase of giving their employees the shaft because they simply can.

Am I missing something here? Is there some reason I should be more shocked about this? Don't get me wrong, I want everyone to earn a fair wage, but this is the system as it has been working for a long time. It feels a lot like the people striking are frogs giving rides to scorpions.

While I agree that they or we should not be shocked by how workers are treated in this current “gig economy”, I think they are doing the right thing to try and change that. My opinion has always been that the natural counter weight to capitalism, isn’t government laws and regulations, but unions and workers. When the workers stand up and say enough is enough, that’s what can change a culture. If the government makes a labor law, the corporations/lobbyists just bribe the right politicians to make it go away or get watered down to nothing.

[Benton]

(05-08-2019, 01:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Is there some reason I should be more shocked about this? 

Nope. This is the world we live in.

People are told they have to give more money to companies (tax breaks, lower rates, local incentives, etc) in order for companies to spend more money (hire people, increase wages, provide training, etc). Businesses get the money, don't spend it and people get frustrated. For those who do have jobs, they talk about collectively bargaining with the employer so that wages stay up with profits, but... they can't, because unions are horrible and require you to sacrifice your unborn children.

But I see both sides of it. I've got three employees, they're all 1099's. Why? Because I'm a startup and I can't afford to compete with the bigger companies in my area (which outsource the bulk of the work to other places and don't employee half the people they should). I don't see that changing at all for a while either. Not until corporations are discouraged from sheltering profits outside the US economy and instead are incentivized to invest in the US economy.

[*bfine32*]

Aren't Uber and Lyft drivers quasi self-employed? I must admit I'm not sure of the business model, but I was under the assumption the more rides you provided the more money you made.

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2019, 06:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Aren't Uber and Lyft drivers quasi self-employed? I must admit I'm not sure of the business model, but I was under the assumption the more rides you provided the more money you made.

But all the rides come from Lyft or Uber.  The drivers have no control over how many rides they get.

I don't know what else Lyft and Uber are responsible for, but I am pretty sure a person can't just start driving people around without some sort of Taxi license if they are not working for Uber or Lyft.

[*michaelsean*]

It’s basic contract work. They are self-employed, but I think it works much better for people looking to supplement their income. It’s perfect for that as you work when you want. Making a living seems like it would be tough though.

I’ve never used one of these services but I think they’re awesome. Pure speculation, but I think there are people alive today who wouldn’t be without these.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-08-2019, 06:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But all the rides come from Lyft or Uber.  The drivers have no control over how many rides they get.

I don't know what else Lyft and Uber are responsible for, but I am pretty sure a person can't just start driving people around without some sort of Taxi license if they are not working for Uber or Lyft.

Actually, the fact that they are "striking" is quite amusing, as just a short while back the news was about how the drivers were "gaming" the app to drive higher fares.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/uber-drivers-game-app-force-surge-pricing

Quote:As University of Warwick researchers Mareike Möhlmann and Ola Henfridsson and Lior Zalmanson of New York University say in their best academese: “We identify a series of mechanisms that drivers use to regain their autonomy when faced with the power asymmetry imposed by algorithmic management, including guessing, resisting, switching and gaming the Uber system.”


Algorithmic management is, of course, the software Uber uses to control its drivers. As Mareike Möhlmann puts it: “Uber uses software algorithms for oversight, governance and to control drivers, who are tracked and their performance constantly evaluated.”

A joint statement from the authors elaborated: “Under constant surveillance through their phones and customer reviews, drivers’ behavior is ranked automatically and any anomalies reported for further review, with automatic bans for not obeying orders or low grades. Drivers receive different commission rates and bonus targets, being left in the dark as to how it is all calculated. Plus drivers believe they are not given rides when they near reaching a bonus.

[NATI BENGALS]

Like many jobs i would say these are in line to be replaced by robots. These particular jobs probably sooner rather than later. Big corporations will have the last laugh.

On another note. Walmart is rolling out a shitload of new robots to be used in the store. Some will even mop the floors. So... The grown ass adults who are not qualified to do anything other than mop floors at walmart will be looking for work soon.

With mega corporations destroying competition and employing more robots i dont see how to solve what will only become a bigger and bigger issue without utilizing socialist programs?

[Au165]

As has been pointed out, this is contract work not sure why the workers are so confused about this. Also mentioned , both companies are heavily invested in self driving cars as they have seen this blow back from the drivers coming for a while now. Lyft is already allowing people in some cities to select self driving cars if they want versus humans. The platform is the key to these businesses, the drivers are easily replaced cogs. The more they push back the quicker they will move into self driving cars.

[Au165]

(05-09-2019, 02:48 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Like many jobs i would say these are in line to be replaced by robots. These particular jobs probably sooner rather than later. Big corporations will have the last laugh.

On another note. Walmart is rolling out a shitload of new robots to be used in the store. Some will even mop the floors. So... The grown ass adults who are not qualified to do anything other than mop floors at walmart will be looking for work soon.

With mega corporations destroying competition and employing more robots i dont see how to solve what will only become a bigger and bigger issue without utilizing socialist programs?

We have a huge infrastructure issue in this country. As robots continue to displace more manual labor jobs the Government should be scooping them up and putting them to work trying to rectify what is a ticking time bomb and possibly one of the biggest threats to the country's future. Think how long it takes them to do road work on a couple mile stretch of 75. Now realize there are millions of miles of roads degrading under our tires each year. Look how long it takes them to work on the bridges and consider there are thousands of bridges across the country that should not be driven over but are every day that need rebuilt. 

We have a lot of work to do, but we have kicked the can down the road for decades. 

[Goalpost]

So I am seeing news on both Lyft and Uber IPO's. I would think the timing of a strike here is not a coincidence. Estimates are that these companies are raising as much as 9 billion being publicly traded companies.

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2019, 10:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Actually, the fact that they are "striking" is quite amusing, as just a short while back the news was about how the drivers were "gaming" the app to drive higher fares.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/uber-drivers-game-app-force-surge-pricing

What makes you call it "amusing"?  Based on that article it seems like the reasons they try to game the system are the same reasons they are striking.  They are not being treated fairly.  Uber is jerking them around in order to get more work for less pay.


"Uber’s stock is apparently worth about $68 billion dollars, more than every other automobile company in the world besides Toyota. How many employees did Toyota have at last count? About 350,000. Uber? About 12,000."

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2019, 08:23 AM)Au165 Wrote: As has been pointed out, this is contract work not sure why the workers are so confused about this.

They are not confused at all.  You are.

(05-09-2019, 08:23 AM)Au165 Wrote:  The more they push back the quicker they will move into self driving cars.

The amount they push back will not have any effect on when they will be replaced.  As soon as the technology is profitable almost all driver will be replaced.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-09-2019, 12:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What makes you call it "amusing"?  Based on that article it seems like the reasons they try to game the system are the same reasons they are striking.  They are not being treated fairly.  Uber is jerking them around in order to get more work for less pay.


"Uber’s stock is apparently worth about $68 billion dollars, more than every other automobile company in the world besides Toyota. How many employees did Toyota have at last count? About 350,000. Uber? About 12,000."

Those people know the deal heading in.  Those companies like Uber and Lyft don't market it as full-time employment.  Heck, the slogan they pitch is "Get your side hustle on".  And, the drivers aren't employees, they're simply self employed contractors.  What I find amusing is the fact that these drivers see themselves as more important than they really are.  They are simply a vehicle (no pun intended) for Uber to deliver their service.

Furthermore, who really gives a damn what their profits are and what their stock is worth?  They had a great idea, and they're making great money from it.  So what?  Do you feel like the Government needs to step in, and force Uber to give those drivers a bigger piece of the pie?  How would you feel if they stepped to you and said, "You know, as an attorney, you're making too much."  "You don't deserve that financial reward for your exceptional intellect and diligent work ethic."  "We feel like we should redistribute your earnings to the dumber, underachieving portion of society.". 

[Au165]

(05-09-2019, 12:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are not confused at all.  You are.


The amount they push back will not have any effect on when they will be replaced.  As soon as the technology is profitable almost all driver will be replaced.

Nah, I don't think so. They signed up to be contractors now they want to be employees. They are protesting the business model they agreed to be a part of. They work whatever hours they want, whenever they want. They can work on whatever platform they want (Lyft or Uber or both). Those sure sound like contractors to me, not employees. That's also what the federal government has ruled in multiple cases related to them and similar services.

Sure it does. There are major financial investment that have to be made to get to automation. They are making a substantial investment, but they could be investing MUCH more in it if they wanted to get there faster. How quickly they under take that investment is dictated by how long they can maximize profit under the current business model. The shorter their runway in terms of being profitable (which in tech is kind of an oxymoron anyways) on the current model the more money they will dump to accelerate development to eliminate the drivers. 

[GMDino]

NPR said this past week that Uber's value dropped from 120 Billion to 91 billion due to them losing money every year.

Yet their IPO is expected to put Billions in the pocket of the owners.

I suppose they are saying they lose money so they can't pay drivers more...while making billions personally from the shell game that is the stock market.

[Benton]

(05-09-2019, 01:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Those people know the deal heading in.  Those companies like Uber and Lyft don't market it as full-time employment.  Heck, the slogan they pitch is "Get your side hustle on".  And, the drivers aren't employees, they're simply self employed contractors.  What I find amusing is the fact that these drivers see themselves as more important than they really are.  They are simply a vehicle (no pun intended) for Uber to deliver their service.

Furthermore, who really gives a damn what their profits are and what their stock is worth?  They had a great idea, and they're making great money from it.  So what?  Do you feel like the Government needs to step in, and force Uber to give those drivers a bigger piece of the pie?  How would you feel if they stepped to you and said, "You know, as an attorney, you're making too much."  "You don't deserve that financial reward for your exceptional intellect and diligent work ethic."  "We feel like we should redistribute your earnings to the dumber, underachieving portion of society.". 

To the bold, if there aren't drivers, then the apps are useless. At least until we get self-driving Ubers.

As far as government intervention, there may be some reason there. From what I understand, part of what the drivers are criticizing is the way the apps charge the consumer based on one rate, then pay the driver based on another rate. That's a deceptive business practice which could violate laws in some places.

Personally, my concern with this is some well-intentioned lawmaker is going to see this as an attempt to skirt minimum wage laws (which it largely is) and it will lead to changes in 1099 exemptions. 

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2019, 01:03 PM)Au165 Wrote: Nah, I don't think so. They signed up to be contractors now they want to be employees. They are protesting the business model they agreed to be a part of. They work whatever hours they want, whenever they want. They can work on whatever platform they want (Lyft or Uber or both). Those sure sound like contractors to me, not employees. That's also what the federal government has ruled in multiple cases related to them and similar services.

So what is your point?  Are you trying to say that there is no strike at all?

It does not matter if they are employees or contractors they can still protest working conditions through a mass walk out.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2019, 01:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What I find amusing is the fact that these drivers see themselves as more important than they really are.  

I find it stunning how people who work for a living claim that labor is meaningless in producing profits.  If the rivers are not important than why do these companies pay them at all.  Why not just run their company with no drivers?

(05-09-2019, 01:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Furthermore, who really gives a damn what their profits are and what their stock is worth?  They had a great idea, and they're making great money from it.  So what?  

Who gives a damn?  The people getting screwed over, that is who.

You need to educate yourself on the labor movement in this country.  Without employees standing up for their fair share 90% of the country's workers would be living in poverty right now while the business owners reaped all the profits from their labor.  Union organizers were murdered by business owners.  People died for fair treatment.  And now just a few decades later we have all these people saying "**** the workers.  Let the owners make all the money.  Labor has no value."

[Au165]

(05-09-2019, 02:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So what is your point?  Are you trying to say that there is no strike at all?

It does not matter if they are employees or contractors they can still protest working conditions through a mass walk out.

My point is the same it was when you attempted to "correct" me. That they appear to be confused, or at least their anger is misplaced. The government agrees they are contractors, which they signed up to be when they opted to do this job. They are angry they aren't considered something they were never told they would be, and that the government agrees they are not. If your still caught up on the term confusion, you can apply ignorant or entitled in there if you wish. 

Anyone can protest about anything. It doesn't mean the protest is worthwhile or has merit. 

Side note: You mention they are being "screwed". How does one get screwed by an agreement that has no penalty for terminating and delivers exactly what both sides were promised?