The Mueller Report thread

[jj22]

What do you mean no one said it wasn't? We've been hearing the celebration of the findings of the hoax/witch hunt "full exoneration" for 2 weeks.....

So basically Trump, his supporters, and Republican Congress are lying you and I both know it (we are saying the same thing. it wasn't a hoax/witch hunt as they claim the investigation exposed), but you are critical of me for some reason.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-04-2019, 06:00 PM)jj22 Wrote: What do you mean no one said it wasn't? We've been hearing the celebration of the findings of the hoax/witch hunt "full exoneration" for 2 weeks.....

So basically Trump, his supporters, and Republican Congress are lying you and I both know it (we are saying the same thing. it wasn't a hoax/witch hunt as they claim the investigation exposed), but you are critical of me for some reason.

JJ there was a grand jury. Nobody said there wasn’t a grand jury. Even if it were a witch hunt they still can’t release the grand jury stuff. Congress can only see it under special circumstances.

[jj22]

(04-04-2019, 06:23 PM)michaelsean Wrote: JJ there was a grand jury. Nobody said there wasn’t a grand jury.  Even if it were a witch hunt they still can’t release the grand jury stuff. Congress can only see it under special circumstances.

If it was a witch hunt/hoax, there'd be no Grand jury! There'd be no "investigations still in progress".

That's the big point in all this.

They are lying. You are criticizing me when you should be criticizing the people pushing this "full exoneration" Muelller report found it was a hoax/witch hunt etc lie we've been hearing about the last two weeks and people was gloating about earlier in this thread.

We both agree there is a grand jury, there is an on going investigation etc. We agree on everything except I'm calling out Trump, Barr, and his supporters on their lie and you are scrutinizing me for calling them out on it.

A Grand Jury, or an ongoing investigation (anything that is classified and needs redacted) would not be an issue if it was deemed by Mueller a witch hunt/Hoax etc. like Trump and his supporters are claiming.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-05-2019, 10:45 AM)jj22 Wrote: If it was a witch hunt/hoax, there'd be no Grand jury! There'd be no "investigations still in progress".

That's the big point in all this.

They are lying. You are criticizing me when you should be criticizing the people pushing this "full exoneration" Muelller report found it was a hoax/witch hunt etc lie we've been hearing about the last two weeks and people was gloating about earlier in this thread.

We both agree there is a grand jury, there is an on going investigation etc. We agree on everything except I'm calling out Trump, Barr, and his supporters on their lie and you are scrutinizing me for calling them out on it.

A Grand Jury, or an ongoing investigation (anything that is classified and needs redacted) would not be an issue if it was deemed by Mueller a witch hunt/Hoax etc. like Trump and his supporters are claiming.

Yes a witch hunt could and would involve a grand jury.  A witch hunt can have ongoing investigations.  A witch hunt can contain classified information.  

I'm not scrutinizing you on calling them out, except when you say they have to release it with zero redactions, and that would be illegal. In a couple of weeks he will release the redacted report, and I believe it will be quite obvious if he removed more than was legally necessary.  

[jj22]

Maybe before they realized it was a Witch Hunt. There was a Grand Jury. But when it was deemed a witch hunt/hoax. No, no there is no "classified information or any information about the grand jury that would need to be hidden. That only happens when it's real.

If he was "fully exonerated" there would not still be an ongoing investigation. You aren't going to sell me that you can be found innocent when an investigation into your crime is ongoing.

You are wrong.

But maybe you believe they just want the hoax and witch hunt hidden from the world.

I don't see how anyone knowing Trump would believe if Mueller "fully exonerated" him as he, his supporters, and Republicans claim that report wouldn't have been released that day with Trumps ego.

But clearly they have people eating right out their hands.

Maybe we don't agree. You are on your own with this one. Well not on your own, Trump supporters are with you.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-05-2019, 10:56 AM)jj22 Wrote: Maybe before they realized it was a Witch Hunt. There was a Grand Jury. But when it was deemed a witch hunt/hoax. No, no there is no "classified information or any information about the grand jury that would need to be hidden. That only happens when it's real.

If he was "fully exonerated" there would not still be an ongoing investigation. You aren't going to sell me that you can be found innocent when an investigation is ongoing.

You are wrong.

But maybe you believe they just want the hoax and witch hunt hidden from the world.

I don't see how anyone knowing Trump would believe if Mueller "fully exonerated" him as he, his supporters, and Republicans claim that report wouldn't have been released that day with Trumps ego.

But clearly they have people eating right out their hands.

I think you've twisted your mind up in a knot, and maybe don't understand what a witch hunt is?  And I think you think I believe it was a witch hunt so you feel antagonistic. I think it was perfectly legitimate to investigate this stuff.

Let's go back over our conversation.  You want the entire report released with no redactions.  I said they can't release it unredacted. (Matt specifically pointed that out to clarify when I said he can release all or none or in between. I figured removing what was legally required was implied, but Matt made sure to clarify).  Then you went kind of off saying  if it were a witch hunt or a hoax then there couldn't be anything that needed redaction as if a witch hunt couldn't involve classified material, grand juries, and ongoing investigations.  

[jj22]

Quote:Brian Krassenstein‏ @krassenstein
Trump supporters who prematurely celebrated in the wrong end zone when Barr's summary was released two weeks ago, are now trying to convince us that the other end zone doesn't exist and anyone who question's its existence is insane.

You are still in the wrong end zone!

[*michaelsean*]

JJ that has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing which pretty much confirms what I said earlier. Maybe a thoughtful liberal will come along to explain it, and that way you will believe it.

[jj22]

(04-05-2019, 11:34 AM)michaelsean Wrote: JJ that has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing which pretty much confirms what I said earlier.  Maybe a thoughtful liberal will come along to explain it, and that way you will believe it.

There's nothing else to discuss honestly Michael. We disagree. You think someone can be found innocent while an investigation is ongoing.

You think a hoax and witch hunt has Grand jury testimony and classified information that needs hidden from the public.

We've established that.

I'm back to pointing out the ridiculousness of Trump supporters celebration. Nothing more really to debate with you on this topic.

[Bengalzona]

Not sure how someone concludes that an investigation into Russian influence in our elections that actually finds conclusive evidence of such is a "witch hunt".

What, is Putin the coven leader?

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2019, 11:45 AM)jj22 Wrote: You think a hoax and witch hunt has Grand jury testimony and classified information that needs hidden from the public.

We've established that.

No you have not established this at all.  Try reading what he actually said.

(04-05-2019, 11:10 AM)michaelsean Wrote:  I think it was perfectly legitimate to investigate this stuff.

 

And the fact that there is an ongoing investigation justifies redacting information.  And even after the investigation is over there is probably information regarding confidential sources that will have to be redacted.

Obviously there will probably be a lot of debate about what is redacted, but I say there will probably be some information that requires it.

[jj22]

I'll wait for someone to tell me how someone can be fully exonerated if an ongoing investigation into their crime is still taking place? Unprecedented to be found innocent before the conclusion of an investigation. But clearly people buy into that talking point. I don't buy what you guys are selling.

Also tell me how a Hoax has all this classified information, and secret grand jury testimony (it doesn't). The findings that it was a hoax (per Trump and Republicans) mean it was all fake. And we should all be demanding to know how it happened.

I'll be the only one who wants to know how the hoax happened so that we can make sure it didn't happen again, and hold whoever did it accountable. And I can't be shamed for it.

So what I gather is a real investigation like the one into Clinton can be released in full with Clinton was unable to redact anything. Grand jury testimony and all.

But a fake investigation. A Witch Hunt. A Hoax. Can't. Has to have parts redacted, and hidden from the public.

Pardon me if I don't play along with this Barr, Trump, Republicans, Trump supporters, and now Fred scam.

I've said it all along, no matter what side you are on, you should want to see the full report.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-05-2019, 01:05 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'll wait for someone to tell me how someone can be fully exonerated if an ongoing investigation into their crime is still taking place? Unprecedented to be found innocent before the conclusion of an investigation. But clearly people buy into that talking point. I don't buy what you guys are selling.

Also tell me how a Hoax has all this classified information, and secret grand jury testimony (it doesn't). The findings that it was a hoax (per Trump and Republicans) mean it was all fake. And we should all be demanding to know how it happened.

I'll be the only one who wants to know how the hoax happened so that we can make sure it didn't happen again, and hold whoever did it accountable. And I can't be shamed for it.

So what I gather is a real investigation like the one into Clinton can be released in full with Clinton was unable to redact anything. Grand jury testimony and all.

But a fake investigation. A Witch Hunt. A Hoax. Can't.

Pardon me if I don't play along with this Barr, Trump, Republicans, Trump supporters, and Fred scam.

Because you obviously don't understand any of the procedure, and then you throw Fred in?  Really?  

I'll put it this way, and then I'm going to leave it alone.  You often have the correct conclusions but you present absolutely horrible arguments.  Of course it wasn't a witch hunt.  Look at the indictments that came out of it.  Even if they never  prove collusion or obstruction, there was some shady stuff going on.  That's all the argument you need instead of this convoluted if it was a witch hunt there would be no sources or grand juries.  And I don't recall Barr ever saying he was exonerated just that no more indictments had been recommended, but I wouldn't swear to that.

[jj22]

(04-05-2019, 12:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And the fact that there is an ongoing investigation justifies redacting information.  And even after the investigation is over there is probably information regarding confidential sources that will have to be redacted.

Obviously there will probably be a lot of debate about what is redacted, but I say there will probably be some information that requires it.

If I haven't established it, Fred just did. We are talking about the Witch Hunt aren't we?

[jj22]

(04-05-2019, 01:21 PM)michaelsean Wrote:  Of course it wasn't a witch hunt.  

Which has been my point all along. Trump, Republicans, Barr, and Trump supporters are lying. It's one big cover up. So why attack me for calling them out on it. Sure I have to try many ways to get the point across because people like you focus on me instead of calling out Trump, Republicans and his supporters for lying knowing and agreeing with me that they are lying.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-05-2019, 01:31 PM)jj22 Wrote: Which has been my point all along. Trump, Republicans, Barr, and Trump supporters are lying. It's one big cover up. So why attack me for calling them out on it. Sure I have to try many ways to get the point across because people like you focus on me instead of calling out Trump, Republicans and his supporters for lying knowing and agreeing with me that they are lying.

Because your argument was incorrect.  Just point out the indictments.  Remember your initial argument here wasn't about witch hunts but rather he should release it unredacted.  I said they can't by law, and that's when you brought up well then it couldn't be a witch hunt.  That makes no sense.  But you take everything so personally to the point you threw Fred in to your list.  

[jj22]

Now my argument that Trump, Republicans, Barr, Trump supporters is lying about it being a hoax and witch hunt, and we all should want the full report released to prove our side is incorrect again. I can't keep up.

You have Fred coming to your aid saying you don't believe it was a Hoax.

Then you say you don't believe it was a hoax.

Then you reconfirm you think I'm incorrect about calling out Trump et al about lying when they says Muellers report determined it was a hoax/witch hunt.

Maybe it just pains you to agree with me. I understand.

I have a great deal of respect for you. And will be more than happy to debate you anytime. But on this we just can't find common ground.

[*michaelsean*]

I know

[Belsnickel]

(04-05-2019, 01:35 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Because your argument was incorrect.  Just point out the indictments.  Remember your initial argument here wasn't about witch hunts but rather he should release it unredacted.  I said they can't by law, and that's when you brought up well then it couldn't be a witch hunt.  That makes no sense.  But you take everything so personally to the point you threw Fred in to your list.  

I think one of the big sticking points with some Democrats has been the Starr Report that was sold in bookstores and was a NY Times best seller. There are some key differences they are forgetting, though. One, the law under which Mueller operated is different than the law Starr operated. The law changed after Starr. The second, and biggest point, is that the investigation into whether Clinton lied about a blowjob was not likely to have much information about the sources and methods of our intelligence community relating to foreign countries. Even though I'm being hyperbolic abotu the triviality of the Starr report, the implication is accurate.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-05-2019, 01:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think one of the big sticking points with some Democrats has been the Starr Report that was sold in bookstores and was a NY Times best seller. There are some key differences they are forgetting, though. One, the law under which Mueller operated is different than the law Starr operated. The law changed after Starr. The second, and biggest point, is that the investigation into whether Clinton lied about a blowjob was not likely to have much information about the sources and methods of our intelligence community relating to foreign countries. Even though I'm being hyperbolic abotu the triviality of the Starr report, the implication is accurate.

And once he releases what he's going to release then we can discuss it.  If he does a 100% as honest as he can job, there will still be some gray areas that people can argue about if that's what they really want to do.  It seems there are some absolutes on some things, but others are a judgment call.  I also think if he intends to hide some incriminating things it would be rather obvious to people who know how to read that stuff.  

I think people can rest assured that Democrats in Congress will latch on to or expose whatever they can.  Things aren't just going to slip by unnoticed.  
Nothing ever happened to the Clintons with Whitewater except I think they underpaid their taxes by a few thousand one year.  But a whole lot of people around them went down, and everyone could draw their own conclusions.  If nothing directly happens to Trump it will be the same thing, and there have already been several indictments.