The Pharaoh, Exodus, God, and the Meme that started an argument

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-07-2016, 11:49 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: With all that being said, I'm not saying "God" doesn't exist. I don't know. I'm undecided.

What is it that causes you to be undecided?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-11-2016, 07:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: What is it that causes you to be undecided?

Because if I'm honest with myself I can't know definitively yes or no.  I recognize I don't know everything and regardless if I believe the answer is yes or no there is a 50% possibility I'm wrong.

It's not a knowing issue, it is a belief issue.  How do you believe in something you don't believe in? Especially when I read the Bible and it makes me believe less and doubt more?  It's like that with all the religions.

That's why I think if there is a God(s), no religion that I am aware of has gotten it right, but perhaps they all have some truth to each.  If there is a God(s), the god I think could have created the universe is much better the God I read about in any book.

[*bfine32*]

(10-11-2016, 08:08 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Because if I'm honest with myself I can't know definitively yes or no.  I recognize I don't know everything and regardless if I believe the answer is yes or no there is a 50% possibility I'm wrong.

It's not a knowing issue, it is a belief issue.  How do you believe in something you don't believe in? Especially when I read the Bible and it makes me believe less and doubt more?  It's like that with all the religions.

That's why I think if there is a God(s), no religion that I am aware of has gotten it right, but perhaps they all have some truth to each.  If there is a God(s), the god I think could have created the universe is much better the God I read about in any book.

This is a honest response and one that I respect. As a believer, I too have moments of doubt, but my answer is exactly opposite of yours: "How can you not believe in something you believe in".

I have always said/believed "As long as you believe, you are not going to be damned because you believed in the wrong Supreme Being". God is infinite.

I have also said the finite mind will never be able to rationalize the existence of God.  

Do not let religion or pride cloud your relationship with God.  I know you like to poke fun of the story about the lady that said she diverted the Tornadoes and you asked me do I believe she diverted the Tornadoes. my answer was: It does matter if I believe she did, it matters that she believes she did. 

[Matt_Crimson]

(09-24-2016, 01:53 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: This is an argument that's raised on a regular basis and it makes no sense to me. 

I get how an eternal fate would cause some to act a certain way to "guarantee" they get the outcome they want. But in practicality, it makes little sense. With no tangible evidence that it will happen, who would continue to believe in something for years or decades? 

In my personal experience, and those that i know personally, it's the day to day experience that keeps the belief tangible. As i've stated on many occasions, simply reading something in a book, or hearing from someone else, isn't nearly enough for me to hang on to a belief for an extended period of time. 

Pre or post conversion, i never once had a fear of what will happen when i die and in my 50+ years, i've never once heard from or about someone who is a Christian because they were told that when they die, if they don't believe, they will go to hell--with absolutely zero personal experience of a personal relationship with their Creator. 

Before my son passed, i had hoped to live a long, healthy life full of time with my family, wife, kids, grandkids; not nearly as interested in what comes after--but secure in the knowledge that it was there. Now, i couldn't care less if i keeled over after finishing this sentence, but no more than simply secure in the knowledge that it is there. 

To me, a fear of what happens when we die is a lazy excuse for non-believers, passed down because they've never bothered, or cared to bother, to find out if there is the possibility of a personal relationship with their Creator. Certainly, there are those that have felt that relationship and have turned away from it for one reason or the other. Being an average, and of sound mind, individual that has experienced that relationship (and continues to) i can't believe that if it was true, it could simply be walked away from and someone could have their mind changed. **i can attest to a period of time where it wasn't as important to me--and i chose to live a live that wasn't close to being considered "Christian"--but the belief that there was something to it never changed**

"Intellectuals" like to read things, see verifiable recreatable evidence of things and come to a "logical" conclusion. That's never going to happen with Religion, so it's a waste of time to even debate that angle. 

I assume that at some point in your life, you've had this discussion about your beliefs of the afterlife with your parents. I'd also assume that you've probably heard a similar reply as to what i've typed here. It would definitely have been interesting to be a fly on the wall during those discussions.

(09-24-2016, 01:53 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: This is an argument that's raised on a regular basis and it makes no sense to me. 

I get how an eternal fate would cause some to act a certain way to "guarantee" they get the outcome they want. But in practicality, it makes little sense. With no tangible evidence that it will happen, who would continue to believe in something for years or decades? 

In my personal experience, and those that i know personally, it's the day to day experience that keeps the belief tangible. As i've stated on many occasions, simply reading something in a book, or hearing from someone else, isn't nearly enough for me to hang on to a belief for an extended period of time. 

Pre or post conversion, i never once had a fear of what will happen when i die and in my 50+ years, i've never once heard from or about someone who is a Christian because they were told that when they die, if they don't believe, they will go to hell--with absolutely zero personal experience of a personal relationship with their Creator. 

Before my son passed, i had hoped to live a long, healthy life full of time with my family, wife, kids, grandkids; not nearly as interested in what comes after--but secure in the knowledge that it was there. Now, i couldn't care less if i keeled over after finishing this sentence, but no more than simply secure in the knowledge that it is there. 

To me, a fear of what happens when we die is a lazy excuse for non-believers, passed down because they've never bothered, or cared to bother, to find out if there is the possibility of a personal relationship with their Creator. Certainly, there are those that have felt that relationship and have turned away from it for one reason or the other. Being an average, and of sound mind, individual that has experienced that relationship (and continues to) i can't believe that if it was true, it could simply be walked away from and someone could have their mind changed. **i can attest to a period of time where it wasn't as important to me--and i chose to live a live that wasn't close to being considered "Christian"--but the belief that there was something to it never changed**

"Intellectuals" like to read things, see verifiable recreatable evidence of things and come to a "logical" conclusion. That's never going to happen with Religion, so it's a waste of time to even debate that angle. 

I assume that at some point in your life, you've had this discussion about your beliefs of the afterlife with your parents. I'd also assume that you've probably heard a similar reply as to what i've typed here. It would definitely have been interesting to be a fly on the wall during those discussions.

In all honesty I have to say I agree with you here. I've seen people use the argument that people believe in God because a belief in God gives them comfort in knowing there's life after death.

If anything a belief in God makes the afterlife more terrifying because if you believe in both God and hell, then that means there's a possibility you can go to hell. That to me is not comforting, nor soothing to think about and actually worries me more than just not existing. Believing in God creates a life long struggle to make it to heaven so that you can live in peace rather than live in hell. If I didn't believe in God, and thought there was non-existence after death, then what would there be to fear? Dying and having to stand before an omnipotent being that will judge you for your sins is way more scarier than just dying and becoming nothing.

[Au165]

(10-13-2016, 09:57 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: In all honesty I have to say I agree with you here. I've seen people use the argument that people believe in God because a belief in God gives them comfort in knowing there's life after death.

If anything a belief in God makes the afterlife more terrifying because if you believe in both God and hell, then that means there's a possibility you can go to hell. That to me is not comforting, nor soothing to think about and actually worries me more than just not existing. Believing in God creates a life long struggle to make it to heaven so that you can live in peace rather than live in hell. If I didn't believe in God, and thought there was non-existence after death, then what would there be to fear? Dying and having to stand before an omnipotent being that will judge you for your sins is way more scarier than just dying and becoming nothing.

Disagree. With religion you are provided a chance, maybe for some not great, but a chance to "live" forever in an awesome place. If you don't believe in an afterlife then when you die the lights go out and that is it. There is no watching over loved ones and all the other great perks of the "good" afterlife religious people talk about. The idea of the lights simply going out is enough to terrify most, and it is what pushes many to magically believe in god right before they die. They want to make a last ditch effort just in case there is something other than nothing.

[Rotobeast]

(10-13-2016, 09:57 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: In all honesty I have to say I agree with you here. I've seen people use the argument that people believe in God because a belief in God gives them comfort in knowing there's life after death.

If anything a belief in God makes the afterlife more terrifying because if you believe in both God and hell, then that means there's a possibility you can go to hell. That to me is not comforting, nor soothing to think about and actually worries me more than just not existing. Believing in God creates a life long struggle to make it to heaven so that you can live in peace rather than live in hell. If I didn't believe in God, and thought there was non-existence after death, then what would there be to fear? Dying and having to stand before an omnipotent being that will judge you for your sins is way more scarier than just dying and becoming nothing.

Depending on your beliefs, Hell may not be eternal.
The Gospel of Judas (Gnostic gospel) suggests that you only go to Hell long enough to atone for your sins and then Jesus comes to take you to Heaven.

I'm sure you could understand why the architectects of societies didn't really want that to get around.
People would be like "I can do what I like. I'll only be in Hell for a little while".

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-13-2016, 09:57 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: In all honesty I have to say I agree with you here. I've seen people use the argument that people believe in God because a belief in God gives them comfort in knowing there's life after death.

If anything a belief in God makes the afterlife more terrifying because if you believe in both God and hell, then that means there's a possibility you can go to hell. That to me is not comforting, nor soothing to think about and actually worries me more than just not existing. Believing in God creates a life long struggle to make it to heaven so that you can live in peace rather than live in hell. If I didn't believe in God, and thought there was non-existence after death, then what would there be to fear? Dying and having to stand before an omnipotent being that will judge you for your sins is way more scarier than just dying and becoming nothing.

If you are "saved" by grace through faith you will go to Heaven.  It's the golden ticket into the chocolate factory.  Which means you're not struggling to get into Heaven, you're struggling to do __________?

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Captain-Nails-It-On-Patriotism?pid=256663#pid256663

[*bfine32*]

Number of interesting topics here and I always enjoy a religion thread where there is little to no mockery.

My $0.02 on some of the subjects touched upon about afterlife:

Not everyone goes to Heaven or Hell, there is the 3rd option of just returning to dust.
If you simply believe there is nothing after life that is what you will receive.

If you believe, but do not accept because of pride, then you might have some fire and brimstone in your future (Your anguish may be nothing more than a glimpse of what you failed to accept).

If you don’t believe and mock, you may have a lot of fire and brimstone in your future.

If you truly believe in the “wrong” God, you will be shown the path to the “right” God

I do not believe anybody spends eternity in Hell; although the fire is eternal.

If you believe in God, publically confess, and are washed of your sins (baptized) you will go to glory

Those that go to Heaven will obtain different levels of reward (not everybody can sit on the right hand of God)

[Rotobeast]

(10-13-2016, 01:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Those that go to Heaven will obtain different levels of reward (not everybody can sit on the right hand of God)

I think this is of the utmost relevance (and I believe what Zona described).

In The Bible, Hell was defined as a distance between the soul and the Glory of God, correct ?

To me that makes the most sense.
If you didn't choose His grace in life, you receive none in death, experiencing eternal darkness and nothingness, a void.

Also, this thought spans all religions and thought on the matter.
If you think God is a mass of nebula or energy at the edge of the universe, this could hold true.
Your little ball of energy might flip polarity and be propelled to the other side of the universe.

I'm cool with that view.
I do not think man should ever be so vain as to think they can strictly define God.

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-13-2016, 10:18 AM)Au165 Wrote: Disagree. With religion you are provided a chance, maybe for some not great, but a chance to "live" forever in an awesome place.

Well it depends on what the person believes. There are many Christians who believe in heaven and hell and that to get to heaven you have to "truly repent of your sins and follow God". For many Christians this is quite the conundrum because we sin daily and never really know if we've been "good enough" to get to heaven but try to have faith that we will get there, and so the possibility that we could end up "missing the mark" and going to hell scares us. Not every Christian believes  this way, but many do.

Quote:The idea of the lights simply going out is enough to terrify most, and it is what pushes many to magically believe in god right before they die. They want to make a last ditch effort just in case there is something other than nothing.

That's not necessarily true. A person can make a death bed confession because in their dying moments they think "Oh crap..... what if God actually is real?.....What if I am going to be judged?.....what if I am actually gonna go to hell?" As for how many actually do this or do what you said? That's all speculation.

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-13-2016, 11:19 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: Depending on your beliefs, Hell may not be eternal.
The Gospel of Judas (Gnostic gospel) suggests that you only go to Hell long enough to atone for your sins and then Jesus comes to take you to Heaven.

I'm sure you could understand why the architectects of societies didn't really want that to get around.
People would be like "I can do what I like. I'll only be in Hell for a little while".

Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

Oh deifnitely. Everyone has their own beliefs and their own fears. But not everyone's fears determine their beliefs.

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-13-2016, 11:42 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If you are "saved" by grace through faith you will go to Heaven.  It's the golden ticket into the chocolate factory.  Which means you're not struggling to get into Heaven, you're struggling to do __________?

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Captain-Nails-It-On-Patriotism?pid=256663#pid256663

(Sorry everyone for posting three times in a row)

Well you have to remember that not all Christians believe the same things.

You're talking about the concept of "being saved by faith alone" which is predominantly a Protestant view of being saved by just believing in God. Something I don't believe in, for various reasons. One of the reasons I don't believe the concept of being saved "because you believe in God" is because it doesn't make sense to me. If we can go to heaven just by believing in God, then why did God bother telling us we can go to hell for not repenting of our sins?

Jesus himself states "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

If we can go to heaven by just believing, why would Jesus say "Repent or you will perish?" Perishing does not sound like "go to heaven" to me. I personally feel that believing in Jesus is the first step to receiving God's grace, but just believing doesn't get us all the way there.

I believe the verse in Ephesians about "Being saved by grace through faith" is being taken out of context. I don't believe the bible is telling us that we are saved "because we believe". I believe the bible is telling us we are saved because God has mercy on us through the death of Jesus, not because we believed in him. Belief in him just helps us to receive that mercy, but it is not why God has mercy on us. Jesus's death is why he has mercy on us or in biblical words (saves us through grace) and by believing in Him, we have a chance of getting to heaven.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-13-2016, 09:26 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: (Sorry everyone for posting three times in a row)

Well you have to remember that not all Christians believe the same things.

You're talking about the concept of "being saved by faith alone" which is predominantly a Protestant view of being saved by just believing in God. Something I don't believe in, for various reasons. One of the reasons I don't believe the concept of being saved "because you believe in God" is because it doesn't make sense to me. If we can go to heaven just by believing in God, then why did God bother telling us we can go to hell for not repenting of our sins?

Jesus himself states "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

If we can go to heaven by just believing, why would Jesus say "Repent or you will perish?" Perishing does not sound like "go to heaven" to me. I personally feel that believing in Jesus is the first step to receiving God's grace, but just believing doesn't get us all the way there.

I believe the verse in Ephesians about "Being saved by grace through faith" is being taken out of context. I don't believe the bible is telling us that we are saved "because we believe". I believe the bible is telling us we are saved because God has mercy on us through the death of Jesus, not because we believed in him. Belief in him just helps us to receive that mercy, but it is not why God has mercy on us. Jesus's death is why he has mercy on us or in biblical words (saves us through grace) and by believing in Him, we have a chance of getting to heaven.

Have you ever considered why so many Christians that worship the same God, read the same Bible can't agree upon how to reach Heaven?

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-14-2016, 07:08 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Have you ever considered why so many Christians that worship the same God, read the same Bible can't agree upon how to reach Heaven?

Because the bible isn't a step by step book about how to get to heaven.

[Dill]

(10-15-2016, 03:32 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Because the bible isn't a step by step book about how to get to heaven.

??? What???  I can see why you might say that of the Old Testament, since beyond "Sheol" there little discussion of an afterlife.  But the New Testament is another story. Criteria for entry into heaven are laid down frequently and explicitly.


John 14: 6--I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.

Matthew 7:21--Not everyone who says to me, "lord, lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father in heaven.

Romans 2:13--For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous.

Timothy 3:15-16--From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness . . . .

Mathew 18:1-6--Who is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?” Jesus called a little child to him and put the child among them. Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.

I could do this all day, but will close with my very favorite, which leaves little doubt about necessary steps to heaven:

Mark 10: 17-25  As Jesus was starting out on his way to Jerusalem, a man came running up to him, knelt down, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. You must not cheat anyone. Honor your father and mother.’”

Teacher,” the man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”

Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.

Then come, follow me.”

At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard to enter the Kingdom of God. In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-15-2016, 07:00 PM)Dill Wrote: ??? What???  I can see why you might say that of the Old Testament, since beyond "Sheol" there little discussion of an afterlife.  But the New Testament is another story. Criteria for entry into heaven are laid down frequently and explicitly.


John 14: 6--I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.

Matthew 7:21--Not everyone who says to me, "lord, lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father in heaven.

Romans 2:13--For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be declared righteous.

Timothy 3:15-16--From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness . . . .

Mathew 18:1-6--Who is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?” Jesus called a little child to him and put the child among them. Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. “And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.

I could do this all day, but will close with my very favorite, which leaves little doubt about necessary steps to heaven:

Mark 10: 17-25  As Jesus was starting out on his way to Jerusalem, a man came running up to him, knelt down, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. You must not cheat anyone. Honor your father and mother.’”

Teacher,” the man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”

Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.

Then come, follow me.”

At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard to enter the Kingdom of God. In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”

I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying the bible doesn't tell you how to get to heaven. I'm saying that because the bible is not a step by step guide of what you must do to get to heaven, it leaves room to interpretation, which in turn leads to all of the different beliefs people have because people think differently.

The bible mentions multiple times that you must "do God's will" but what does that even mean? These are the questions people ask themselves when reading the Bible and everyone comes to their own conclusion as to what it all means. It is not a step by step "Do this and this and this and viola, you're in heaven".

[*bfine32*]

(10-15-2016, 07:00 PM)Dill Wrote: ??? What???  I can see why you might say that of the Old Testament, since beyond "Sheol" there little discussion of an afterlife.  But the New Testament is another story. Criteria for entry into heaven are laid down frequently and explicitly.


John 14: 6--I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.

Yep, that's it. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-15-2016, 03:32 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Because the bible isn't a step by step book about how to get to heaven.

So you and I are condemned to Hell thanks to Adam and Eve and the way to Heaven is a secret?

Why do you think an omniscient author who knew the Bible was so "open to interpretation" didn't do a better job expressing Himself so Christians wouldn't be so confused?

[Dill]

(10-15-2016, 07:54 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying the bible doesn't tell you how to get to heaven. I'm saying that because the bible is not a step by step guide of what you must do to get to heaven, it leaves room to interpretation, which in turn leads to all of the different beliefs people have because people think differently.

The bible mentions multiple times that you must "do God's will" but what does that even mean? These are the questions people ask themselves when reading the Bible and everyone comes to their own conclusion as to what it all means. It is not a step by step "Do this and this and this and viola, you're in heaven".

I am not a Christian, but I can tell you what "do [the Christian] God's will" means. It means follow the 10 commandments--plus turn the other cheek, suffer the children, help the poor, render under to Caesar, be a good Samaritan, cast not the first stone, and above all, recognize that Jesus is the son of god.

Follow those steps and, according to almost every major Christian denomination, you will get to heaven.  The exception might be those strains of Calvinist Christianity which define predestination as unconditional election.

Sure, the meanings/definitions of the steps change over time. For rich 16th-century protestants, the "eye of the needle" was narrow gate in Jerusalem which a loaded camel could get through if (through tithing) one removes side baggage. For contemporary protestants, the Sermon on the Mount does not translate into economic policy or penal code the way it did in 13th-century Europe.

Meaning is never essential always contextual, always changing, even when seemingly anchored in the "literal" meaning of texts. But it is clear, nevertheless, that the New Testament presents steps to heaven and promises salvation to those who follow them, whether the meaning of those steps changes over time or is subject to dispute/confusion.

[Devils Advocate]

(10-15-2016, 09:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So you and I are condemned to Hell thanks to Adam and Eve and the way to Heaven is a secret?

Why do you think an omniscient author who knew the Bible was so "open to interpretation" didn't do a better job expressing Himself so Christians wouldn't be so confused?

Nope. Jesus rode the cross; securing all a place in heaven.

Isn't this so?