The left doesn't want to take your guns!

[GMDino]

(03-30-2018, 10:25 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Was Sutter a conservative too?

Do you mean Souter?

Is that pertinent to saying Stevens is a liberal?

[*michaelsean*]

(03-30-2018, 10:33 PM)GMDino Wrote: Do you mean Souter?

Is that pertinent to saying Stevens is a liberal?

Yes Souter sorry. He was also appointed by a Republican.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-30-2018, 09:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Serious question, do we know of any lawmakers that were present for the speakers from that rally? I know some showed up to photo-op for the marching, but I don't even know who or if any were at the main event of it all.

No idea.  Counter question, do you think any of them are unaware of what was said at the rally whether they were present or not?  Surely not by this point in any event.  Have any of them disavowed the comments made? 

Quote:Overall, I've seen and heard a lot on the left talking about gun control since Parkland and the discussions would all have passed the Overton test. That being said, I don't follow many elected officials other than my own. Mostly, these have been wonks, pundits, journalists, etc.

Being completely honest I am not familiar with the Overton test.  I can say that I haven't seen a single response from a Democrat that attended these rallies stating the speakers went too far, or that the NRA doesn't have children's blood on their hands or that the NRA isn't a terrorist organization.

(03-30-2018, 10:03 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Stevens is still a registered Republican, right?

If he is, so what?  I'll answer with the same point that continues to elude GMDino, what you consider yourself is immaterial, your words and actions show others what you truly are.  Not a single person, aside from Stevens, considers him anything but a former liberal justice.

Quote:Also, the event's official website does not call for repealing the second amendment.

I never said they did.  My OP made no such claim nor could anyone logically infer that it did.  What it did say is that they engaged in extreme rhetoric which was popinted out in my post, as well as subsequent posts.

Quote:They call for a ban on further assault weapons

No, they called for a ban on semi-automatic "high velocity" rifles.  I've already addressed this point.

Quote:and suggest a buyback for those who choose to

Absolutely nothing new here, there have been buybacks for years.  They don't seem to be very successful.

Quote:and registration for the ones left remaining in the hands of private citizens. 

No thanks.  If we can't ask someone's citizenship status on a census out of fear then I certainly think asking people to register their legally bought property is far too much to ask.

[GMDino]

(03-30-2018, 10:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: ...what you consider yourself is immaterial, your words and actions show others what you truly are. 

Or does their interpretations based on what they consider themselves "show others" what you "really are"?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-30-2018, 10:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: So the title of the thread "The left doesn't want to take you guns!" Followed by quoting Stevens is meant to NOT imply he is "left"?

He is left, no implying is necessary.  

Quote:Nor you pulling one opinionated sentence from a long article?

I could have pulled many other sentences stating the same thing.  If your end game here is to somehow prove that Stevens was not a liberal justice then do yourself a favor and quit now.  You'll save yourself time and embarrassment.

Quote:You're funny.

I prefer witty, thank you.

Quote:I did read the article.

He's isn't "left" or a "liberal".

So, you didn't read the article.

Quote:He's a smart, reasoned man.

GM speak for I agree with him.  It's cool, you're entitled to your insanely minority opinion that Stevens was not a liberal justice.

Quote:Something more people could stand to be with less casting of labels.

As a poster who clearly abhors labeling others this statement carries a lot of weight.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-30-2018, 10:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: Amen.  

And yet...

[GMDino]

(03-30-2018, 10:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He is left, no implying is necessary.  



I could have pulled many other sentences stating the same thing.  If your end game here is to somehow prove that Stevens was not a liberal justice then do yourself a favor and quit now.  You'll save yourself time and embarrassment.



I prefer witty, thank you.




So, you didn't read the article.



GM speak for I agree with him.  It's cool, you're entitled to your insanely minority opinion that Stevens was not a liberal justice.


As a poster who clearly abhors labeling others this statement carries a lot of weight.

Well, I tried....again.

[GMDino]

(03-30-2018, 10:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: And yet...

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-30-2018, 08:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oh, it wasn't just them, I've cited numerous other statements and actions that would lead a logical observer to not trust the "common sense" intentions of the anti-gun movement.



I'm honestly confused why I keep having to reiterate the same exact point.  No one, including myself as I said at the time, expected Trump to take even a small step in that direction.  Time and events have proven this 100% correct.  There is also the context of his statement, but it generally boils down to Trump speaking first and thinking later.  I do appreciate your completely ignoring my point that numerous Democrats were at the March for Our Lives, should they not be responsible for the sentiments expressed there or immediately denounce said statements?  Also, I'm not sure why you ignored a poll that showed a disturbingly high number of registered Democrats are in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment.  Are they all "kids and retired guys" with no political power?



I got that, it doesn't change my point though.


In almost every instance, yes.  Why did you use rifle round instead of "assault weapon" round though?


Yes, among people who actually know about firearms.  It is a select fire rifle with a detachable magazine.  As there are a negligible amount of actual "assault rifles" in civilian hands (and I believe they have only ever been used in single digit numbers to commit crimes, 1 or 2 iirc) they aren't a consideration from a legislation stand point as they are already very heavily regulated.  Among people who have no knowledge about firearms the definition varies considerably.  It appears to be an arbitrary mix of meaningless features, such as a vertical fore grip, a pistol grip, a telescoping stock, etc. all of which have zero effect on the firearms lethality.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_gun

A long gun is a category of firearms with longer barrels than other classes. In small arms, a long gun is generally designed to be held by both hands and braced against the shoulder, in contrast to a handgun, which can be fired being held with a single hand.


Yes, a shotgun is a long gun.  Yes a 240G is a long gun and it is also a fully automatic weapon and thus generally not legal to own. 

Like i said. Its like a campaign ad with the talking points. Your title of "the left" through common sense was transformed into the "anti-gun" movement.

Yep right now more liberals than conservatives are being stupid when it comes to the 2nd amendment. Just like more conservatives are being stupid when it comes to when it comes to white supremacy and racism.

I was going to post a longer reply but im sick of fighting with my phone. And i cant get fancy with quotes on this mb

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-30-2018, 11:07 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Like i said. Its like a campaign ad with the talking points.

You said this before, i asked you to please provide examples.  You have yet to do so.

Quote:Your title of "the left" through common sense was transformed into the "anti-gun" movement.

If I'm interpreting this correctly you're saying I'm misconstruing "the left's common sense" gun control proposals.  I'd respond by stating that; one, "common sense gun control" is an obvious talking point and, two, please point out what is "common sense" that I am objecting to.

Quote:Yep right now more liberals than conservatives are being stupid when it comes to the 2nd amendment.

Agreed.  So you admit my thread's premise has merit.

Quote:Just like more conservatives are being stupid when it comes to when it comes to white supremacy and racism.

What conservative politician of note is advocating for white supremacy?

Quote:I was going to post a longer reply but im sick of fighting with my phone. And i cant get fancy with quotes on this mb

That I can totally understand.  I don't even bother trying to respond to anything on my phone.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-30-2018, 10:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: Well, I tried....again.

To obfuscate as usual, yes you did.  Look it's cool, dude.  You want to argue that Stevens was not almost unanimously considered a liberal justice.  You are most certainly entitled to that opinion.  That it flies in the face of fact and consensus is fine, we Americans do enjoy a rebel.  

[fredtoast]

(03-29-2018, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No slippery slope kids, remember correlation does not equal causation.

You still don't get it.  The fact that a minority of people who support some sort of gun regulation also supportr confiscation does not mean that any regulation will lead to confiscation.  Why can't you grasp this concept?

(03-29-2018, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I could go on, but the point is made.  Please don't waste our time claiming the ultimate goal isn't confiscation and repeal.  You all got too excited and the mask slipped, a lot.    

No one let any maks slip.  You justr posted a polll; that shows a minority of democrats support repealing the second amendment as proof that "the left" supports repealing the second amendment.  Don't you see a little problem with your argument?  (Hint: You just posted proof that your own claim was wrong.)

[GMDino]

(04-02-2018, 09:25 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You still don't get it.  The fact that a minority of people who support some sort of gun regulation also supportr confiscation does not mean that any regulation will lead to confiscation.  Why can't you grasp this concept?

Fear and a lack of ability to admit when wrong?

(04-02-2018, 09:25 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No one let any maks slip.  You justr posted a polll; that shows a minority of democrats support repealing the second amendment as proof that "the left" supports repealing the second amendment.  Don't you see a little problem with your argument?  (Hint: You just posted proof that your own claim was wrong.)

It's fear and propaganda. Rather than try to have rational conversations just jump into the deep end and complain that everyone else is doing what you just did.

[fredtoast]

CNN poll from Feb 23rd shows that EIGHTY-SEVEN percent of respondents OPPOSE a law "preventing all Americans from owning guns".  Same poll shows that 90 percent of respndents support a requirement for background check for every gun purchase.

NRA followers then take the position that requiring a background check for every sale will lead directly to repeal of the second ammendment. "Any form of regulation is just the first step toward total confiscation".

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-02-2018, 09:25 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You still don't get it.  The fact that a minority of people who support some sort of gun regulation also supportr confiscation does not mean that any regulation will lead to confiscation.  Why can't you grasp this concept?

You still don't get it.  We've seen it happen in deep blue states where confiscation is now on the table.  Anyone with a pair of eyes can see that any proposals from Dems and their allies on gun control is merely the most recent demand.  They'll have more down the road.  It's a very simple correlation, more Dems equals fewer gun ownership rights.  It's not complicated.

Quote:No one let any maks slip.  You justr posted a polll; that shows a minority of democrats support repealing the second amendment as proof that "the left" supports repealing the second amendment.  Don't you see a little problem with your argument?  (Hint: You just posted proof that your own claim was wrong.)

Spin, Fred spin!!!  40% of Democrats support repealing the 2nd amendment.  Yes a minority, but a very sizable one.  They are also expressing support for the most extreme anti-gun position.  If 40% of any group supports the most extreme position then you'd be a complete idiot to not conclude that the rest are unlikely to be reasonable on the subject.  I've seen threads on this board about the dangers of white supremacists, and they don't even represent .1% of white people.  You think a poll that found 40% of white people wanted all non-whites to be expelled from the country would be met with the same claim from you that only a minority of white people support such an extreme move?  Your attempts to downplay what everyone can see with their own eyes does your side of this argument no favors.


Lastly, I have a question for you from another thread.  Do you have a problem with the citizenship question being added to the census?  Please do answer this.

[fredtoast]

(04-02-2018, 11:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  If 40% of any group supports the most extreme position then you'd be a complete idiot to not conclude that the rest are unlikely to be reasonable on the subject. 

Why?

I generally base my opinion of poll reulst on whgat the poll actually shows.  So if the poll shows that only a minority support repealing the 2nd ammendment then how you spin that to conclude what the other 60% think.

What about the ones who specifiaclly oppose repealing the 2nd amendment?  What conclusion can you draw about their position on other gun control issues.

Seems like you are just using a minority to crate an imaginary majority.

(04-02-2018, 11:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   I've seen threads on this board about the dangers of white supremacists, and they don't even represent .1% of white people.  You think a poll that found 40% of white people wanted all non-whites to be expelled from the country would be met with the same claim from you that only a minority of white people support such an extreme move?  

Please link me to a thread where it is claimed that ALL white people are white supremists just because of the actions of a minority of white people.

Even if a poll showed 40% of white people wanted all non-whites expelled i would not try to argue that ALL white people support such extreme measures.

The fact is that you posted information that proves you are wrong.  A high percentage of "the left" support more gun regulation, but only a minority support repealling the 2nd amendment.  Therefore your argument that "Any gun regulation will lead to repeal of the 2nd amendment" is proven false by the info you posted yourself.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-02-2018, 11:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Why?

I generally base my opinion of poll reulst on whgat the poll actually shows.  So if the poll shows that only a minority support repealing the 2nd ammendment then how you spin that to conclude what the other 60% think.

I made the logical conclusion that Dems are obviously much more likely to support extreme forms of gun control.

Quote:What about the ones who specifiaclly oppose repealing the 2nd amendment?  What conclusion can you draw about their position on other gun control issues.

The ones who specifically oppose such a move are a considerably smaller minority than the minority you just claimed doesn't mean anything.

Quote:Seems like you are just using a minority to crate an imaginary majority.

Using data to draw logical conclusions.

Quote:Please link me to a thread where it is claimed that ALL white people are white supremists just because of the actions of a minority of white people.

I'll be happy to do so as soon as I make this claim.  I don't get why you pull this tactic so often; claiming a person made an argument or claim they didn't make.  Everyone knows you do it and I don't understand why you think it helps your arguments.

Quote:Even if a poll showed 40% of white people wanted all non-whites expelled i would not try to argue that ALL white people support such extreme measures.

Neither would I. 

Quote:The fact is that you posted information that proves you are wrong.  A high percentage of "the left" support more gun regulation, but only a minority support repealling the 2nd amendment.  Therefore your argument that "Any gun regulation will lead to repeal of the 2nd amendment" is proven false by the info you posted yourself.

Again, in hopes of cracking the shell of obtuseness.  When 40% of a group supports the most extreme action and the group in question routinely engages in actions that, while less extreme still represent a much more extreme position than the rest of the populace, one can draw the logical conclusion that this group is much more likely to support extreme positions on said subject than others.

Lastly, I don't think it will lead to a repeal of the 2nd.  If you disagree, I'd kindly invite you to cite the post in which I made such a claim.  What I did say is that this is the goal of many anti-gun types and they finally feel emboldened enough to actually say it out loud.  The mask has slipped. 

[fredtoast]

(03-29-2018, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, perfect timing for my time on the naughty list.  I've been told numerous times that the anti-gun types (let's be honest, which consists almost entirely of the left) don't want to confiscate our firearms or repeal the 2nd amendment.

I could go on, but the point is made.  Please don't waste our time claiming the ultimate goal isn't confiscation and repeal.  You all got too excited and the mask slipped, a lot.    

Seems like when I claim you made this argument you get upset with me for "putting words in your mouth" or accuse you of making an argument that you never did.

So, are you claiming that a poll which shows that only a MINORITY of democrats support repealing the 2nd amendment somehow proves you are correct?

Do you have anything other than you own imagination that show that a majority of "the left" are in favor of repealing the second amendment or confiscating all guns?

I need to know exactly what you are trying to claim before I can address what you are trying to claim.

[Belsnickel]

(04-02-2018, 11:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Spin, Fred spin!!!  40% of Democrats support repealing the 2nd amendment.  Yes a minority, but a very sizable one.  They are also expressing support for the most extreme anti-gun position. 

Is it? What you're seeing is a false dichotomy being presented. What I mean is that the question asked was about the repeal of the second, but that doesn't mean everyone who says yes to that wants no guns or confiscation. Were there follow-up questions regarding a more narrowly defined amendment? Did the pollster ask anything other that that dichotomy? If not, then they themselves skewed these results. What would it have looked like with multiple options?

In looking at the poll (here, if you're interested: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/h8n9gvrqyj/econTabReport.pdf), I can definitely say that the way the question is presented skews the answer. Were you to present those people with choices, those choices being repeal, replace, modify, or do nothing, most of the people who would go for the middle two options. In addition, this survey being conducted during this timeframe is also going to increase the positive responses to appeal.

To sum up, both the question construction and timing allow for an inflated affirmative response to the question of repealing the 2nd Amendment. It was bad polling, it was bad journalism for outlets to really put as much stock in it as they did, and it has been used to stoke fears in the minds of those that put much more stock into this issue than others.

[fredtoast]

(04-02-2018, 01:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Is it? What you're seeing is a false dichotomy being presented. What I mean is that the question asked was about the repeal of the second, but that doesn't mean everyone who says yes to that wants no guns or confiscation. Were there follow-up questions regarding a more narrowly defined amendment? Did the pollster ask anything other that that dichotomy? If not, then they themselves skewed these results. What would it have looked like with multiple options?

In looking at the poll (here, if you're interested: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/h8n9gvrqyj/econTabReport.pdf), I can definitely say that the way the question is presented skews the answer. Were you to present those people with choices, those choices being repeal, replace, modify, or do nothing, most of the people who would go for the middle two options. In addition, this survey being conducted during this timeframe is also going to increase the positive responses to appeal.

To sum up, both the question construction and timing allow for an inflated affirmative response to the question of repealing the 2nd Amendment. It was bad polling, it was bad journalism for outlets to really put as much stock in it as they did, and it has been used to stoke fears in the minds of those that put much more stock into this issue than others.

When asked if they support a ban on all guns only about 10% support something that extreme.