Things we can all agree on.

[hollodero]

This thread is created in an attempt to add something constructive to the debate, something that doesn't always come easy. As stated in the subject line, I want to establish certain things that everyone here, from the Lucies and Vlads to the Dills and Dinos (and yes, if your name isn't mentioned it's because I don't like you) can actually agree on.

These things should be a bit more sophisticated then obvious 2+2=4 statements (and not ridiculous ones like all Trump supporters are stupid or something with libturds, shouldn't be worth it.)

If there's a disagreeing voice, a statement will not be considered as universally agreed on. Part of the idea would be a civil debate about it. In which no one should be pressured to change his mind or be attacked or ridiculed for not doing so. Goofing around is always fine with me, as are hard fought word battles, but any form of belittling would soon put an end to the idea behind this. I know quite well I'm not the one to preach about that either, it's not what I'm trying to do, and I will try to adapt here as well. All kinds of arguments would be welcome though, rational, logical, ideological, emotional ones.
Viable idea? I have no idea, let's see. (How and if the idea is developed depends on if and what responses it creates.)

I will try some statements where I think there's a chance no one here disagrees:


1. Michael Flynn should not be part of government now
2. The US-European alliance should be upheld
3. North Korea demands attention
4. The Kathy Griffin picture was in bad taste and a mistake
5. Trump had some strange moments
6.
7.
...


(and now I go to sleep. And you now know about that, whether you wanted that information or not.)

[NATI BENGALS]

All this talk about building a wall and our drug problem.

Our government run postal service is delivering foreign drugs on a daily basis.

Dumbest shit happning other than whatever the white house is up to.
http://m.fox19.com/fox19/db_330522/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=Lb3pjLOX

Bipartisan bill to knock that off should be done. Why is it not?

[Vlad]

(08-01-2017, 09:56 PM)hollodero Wrote: This thread is created in an attempt to add something constructive to the debate, something that doesn't always come easy. As stated in the subject line, I want to establish certain things that everyone here, from the Lucies and Vlads to the Dills and Dinos (and yes, if your name isn't mentioned it's because I don't like you) can actually agree on.

These things should be a bit more sophisticated then obvious 2+2=4 statements (and not ridiculous ones like all Trump supporters are stupid or something with libturds, shouldn't be worth it.)

If there's a disagreeing voice, a statement will not be considered as universally agreed on. Part of the idea would be a civil debate about it. In which no one should be pressured to change his mind or be attacked or ridiculed for not doing so. Goofing around is always fine with me, as are hard fought word battles, but any form of belittling would soon put an end to the idea behind this. I know quite well I'm not the one to preach about that either, it's not what I'm trying to do, and I will try to adapt here as well. All kinds of arguments would be welcome though, rational, logical, ideological, emotional ones.
Viable idea? I have no idea, let's see. (How and if the idea is developed depends on if and what responses it creates.)

I will try some statements where I think there's a chance no one here disagrees:


1. Michael Flynn should not be part of government now
2. The US-European alliance should be upheld
3. North Korea demands attention
4. The Kathy Griffin picture was in bad taste and a mistake
5. Trump had some strange moments
6.
7.
...


(and now I go to sleep. And you now know about that, whether you wanted that information or not.)

Of course I can agree with those, but can we all agree that the mainstream media excluding FOX is left wing biased and was in bed with Hillary this past election?

Can we all  agree that conservative speakers should be allowed to speak at colleges without having to face violent leftists?

Can we all agree there is such a thing as Islamic terrorism?

Can we all agree that leftist propensity for violence and hate was exposed yet again this last election?
 
I could go on and on but we'll wait to see if you can digest those first.

[NATI BENGALS]

(08-02-2017, 12:14 AM)Vlad Wrote: Of course I can agree with those, but can we all agree that the mainstream media excluding FOX is left wing biased and was in bed with Hillary this past election?

Can we all  agree that conservative speakers should be allowed to speak at colleges without having to face violent leftists?

Can we all agree there is such a thing as Islamic terrorism?

Can we all agree that leftist propensity for violence and hate was exposed yet again this last election?
 
I could go on and on but we'll wait to see if you can digest those first.

Not bad. I can agree with you on 50% of those. A smidge of your brainwashed talking points poked through on a couple though.

[hollodero]

(08-02-2017, 12:14 AM)Vlad Wrote: Of course I can agree with those

Maybe I went too easy, yeah.

(08-02-2017, 12:14 AM)Vlad Wrote: but can we all agree that the mainstream media excluding FOX is left wing biased and was in bed with Hillary this past election?

No. The reason for that is that while I do believe the media was very critical of Trump and increasingly so, being critical of Trump does not equal being in bed with Hillary. I consider that bridge too far.
I started tuning into your media only as soon as Trump was increasingly likely to be nominated. I saw quite the reports of the Email scandal too (whcih is a scandal and should be quite disqualifying for office too, in my view, but I'm not sure if everyone agrees on that). What I also saw was a lot, and I mean a lot of Trump coverage, everytime he spoke, snored or raised his finger the cameras would show it live. The left gives MSM quite a lot of blame for the election losss because of that unproportional coverage, and I do feel they have a point there.
Personally, while MSNBC sure is left-leaning, I wouldn't consider CNN as particularly pro-Democrat. Just increasingly anti-Trump, from a journalistic standpoint I can understand that, but again those two things are not the same for me.

(08-02-2017, 12:14 AM)Vlad Wrote: Can we all  agree that conservative speakers should be allowed to speak at colleges without having to face violent leftists?

I can and agree whole-heartedly. I would remove the word "leftist" like I would remove words like Trumpster though. No speaker should face violence or eruptive protests that acts within the law, no matter the political stance. That does not mean I don't see that as a particular "leftist" problem (it is) and is not aimed at creating a false equivalency about that one. Quite a large group on the left seems to consider tolerance as the allowance of others to agree on their values.
Same thing happens here and it makes me furious. Colleges, universities etc. aren't supposed to be places where everything one hears is comfortable and within the lines of his own worldview. Quite the opposite, actually.

(08-02-2017, 12:14 AM)Vlad Wrote: Can we all agree there is such a thing as Islamic terrorism?

I sure hope so. There certainly is.

(08-02-2017, 12:14 AM)Vlad Wrote: Can we all agree that leftist propensity for violence and hate was exposed yet again this last election?

Tricky. People's "propensity" for violence and hate does exist, but I have a hard time only tieing it to one political group. That is not true. Some people on the right also used to resort to violence, and some more were quite hateful towards Hillary too. I read FOX comments from time to time, and Breitbart, and these are full of unhingedly hateful people. Regarding violence, I do condemn it, no matter from which side is comes. That goes for recent violent outbursts from left-leaning people, that I am aware of. Then again, a Trump rally wasn't always the most peaceful thing either. I heard Trump calling for violence from the podium, and remembering that I can't concur with your statement, that seems too biased for me.
Throughout recent history, people from every side committed violent acts. I also can't concur that regarding a viable timespan (some years), "left" violence widely outnumbers "right" violence. I guess things like these can become a "link war", incident over incident, but there probably will never be an universal agreement on that one.

[Belsnickel]

(08-02-2017, 07:26 AM)hollodero Wrote: No. The reason for that is that while I do believe the media was very critical of Trump and increasingly so, being critical of Trump does not equal being in bed with Hillary. I consider that bridge too far.
I started tuning into your media only as soon as Trump was increasingly likely to be nominated. I saw quite the reports of the Email scandal too (whcih is a scandal and should be quite disqualifying for office too, in my view, but I'm not sure if everyone agrees on that). What I also saw was a lot, and I mean a lot of Trump coverage, everytime he spoke, snored or raised his finger the cameras would show it live. The left gives MSM quite a lot of blame for the election losss because of that unproportional coverage, and I do feel they have a point there.
Personally, while MSNBC sure is left-leaning, I wouldn't consider CNN as particularly pro-Democrat. Just increasingly anti-Trump, from a journalistic standpoint I can understand that, but again those two things are not the same for me.

I also need to comment on this, because something that is ignored a lot with the talking point about the media is the amount of negative coverage Clinton got in the MSM. The coverage of Clinton was more negative than positive as well and many of the outlets did a lot to hurt her in the election.

[treee]

It's not difficult to find common ground. It is easy to find a point of contention. Some people spend their entire lives unable to do one or the other.

[Benton]

(08-02-2017, 12:14 AM)Vlad Wrote: Of course I can agree with those, but can we all agree that the mainstream media excluding FOX is left wing biased and was in bed with Hillary this past election?

Can we all  agree that conservative speakers should be allowed to speak at colleges without having to face violent leftists?

Can we all agree there is such a thing as Islamic terrorism?

Can we all agree that leftist propensity for violence and hate was exposed yet again this last election?
 
I could go on and on but we'll wait to see if you can digest those first.

1. Disagree. The constant MSm coverage of Benghazi, Obamacare and gender instead of the issues did more to harm her than trump did. If anything, msm oushed trump into office.

2-3. Agreed.

4. Not any worse than the right. I would say if you're looking for peaceful activitists, try libertarianism or the Green Party.

[Griever]

i think we can all agree that trump and his hardcore followers dont live in an actual reality

[Millhouse]

Things I like to think everyone can agree on (but I know some dont):

1. Fossil fuels is a short term solution while trying to discover as fast as possible an actual sustainable energy source that has yet been discovered.
2. Nuclear power plants need to be eradicated in our lifetimes just as fossil fuel plants should be. But this goes to the above of a new energy source.
3. A massive reduction of nuclear weapons from all countries, that would overall be below the threshold of the extinction level.
4. Life exists outside of our solar system.
5. The Earth is not 6000 years old, as the Flintstones is fictional and not based on what really happened.

[*jason*]

Can we all agree that we (most of us) are Americans? Can we all agree that we want our kids to have
a good life? Can we all agree that media sensationalism, large corporations, and piss poor leadership in the federal government seem to be making us lose sight of this?

[tigerseye]

(08-02-2017, 12:14 AM)Vlad Wrote: Of course I can agree with those, but can we all agree that the mainstream media excluding FOX is left wing biased and was in bed with Hillary this past election?

Can we all  agree that conservative speakers should be allowed to speak at colleges without having to face violent leftists?

Can we all agree there is such a thing as Islamic terrorism?

Can we all agree that leftist propensity for violence and hate was exposed yet again this last election?
 
I could go on and on but we'll wait to see if you can digest those first.

This is a small list of what you could have written.

Of this list you are 100% correct.

The main stream media is propaganda to manipulate the public in concert with others. People need to investigate and discover truth telling news outlets. They are out there but you have to look.

God Bless America!

[CKwi88]

We can all agree that constant fingerpointing at overgeneralized groups like "leftists" and "rightists" and "MSM" does absolutely nothing constructive and just makes meeting in the middle that much more difficult.

We can all agree that the US needs massive healthcare reform.

We can all agree that we have a disturbing tendency to vote and follow politicians based on often irrational emotion rather than on policy or even facts.

[Yojimbo]

(08-02-2017, 03:37 PM)tigerseye Wrote: This is a small list of what you could have written.

Of this list you are 100% correct.

The main stream media is propaganda to manipulate the public in concert with others. People need to investigate and discover truth telling news outlets. They are out there but you have to look.

God Bless America!

On the MSM. I don't believe it's left or right anymore, it's just corporate. Whatever story they think will help their bottom line is what gets "reported" and anything that could hurts profits is buried or ignored.

[BmorePat87]

1. The Steelers suck

[GMDino]

(08-02-2017, 04:38 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: 1. The Steelers suck

I disagree.

[*jason*]

(08-02-2017, 04:05 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: We can all agree that constant fingerpointing at overgeneralized groups like "leftists" and "rightists" and "MSM" does absolutely nothing constructive and just makes meeting in the middle that much more difficult.

We can all agree that the US needs massive healthcare reform.

We can all agree that we have a disturbing tendency to vote and follow politicians based on often irrational emotion rather than on policy or even facts.

To your last point. Many people vote against their own interests... Repeatedly.

[NATI BENGALS]

Marijuana should be legalized and taxed? With the money being saved from less prison/ crime fighting costs and a huge windfall of tax revenue our infrastructure, healthcare and social security invested in.

[ballsofsteel]

(08-02-2017, 03:37 PM)tigerseye Wrote: This is a small list of what you could have written.

Of this list you are 100% correct.

The main stream media is propaganda to manipulate the public in concert with others. People need to investigate and discover truth telling news outlets. They are out there but you have to look.

God Bless America!

The only MSM who try to manipulate the public is Right Wing Slurp fest Faux news in concert with the right wing radio slurpees,
Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, joe ****, Levine and Drumph favorite Alex Jones.
When the legit MSM reports when Drumph says something stupid or tells another lie every day that is not propaganda, that is news. Their job is to report the news.
Typical right wing news reporter, Steve Duchbag from Fox. What richard creniuam. Slurp Slurp.

[hollodero]

(08-02-2017, 02:42 PM)Griever Wrote: i think we can all agree that trump and his hardcore followers dont live in an actual reality

This is the kind of statement that hardly serves any purpose.

(08-02-2017, 03:10 PM)Millhouse Wrote: 1. Fossil fuels is a short term solution while trying to discover as fast as possible an actual sustainable energy source that has yet been discovered.

I am not a fan of fossil fuels. But it's hard to imagine to completely get rid of them just yet. That it's short term lies in the nature of things, 100-150 years and it will be very tricky to find enough oil so it can be used at a sustainable price. We need to focus real haard on finding an aleternative, for economical and ecological reasons.
Right now, we couldn't possibly just switch. The hope lies in technology, but I'm not so sure that new sources are found just because we try real hard. I refer to fusion energy, which seems to be stuck since forever, we just can't build an efficient reactor. And maybe we never can. Why the mention? Because

(08-02-2017, 03:10 PM)Millhouse Wrote: 2. Nuclear power plants need to be eradicated in our lifetimes just as fossil fuel plants should be. But this goes to the above of a new energy source.

After that, I tend to disagree with that one as a must.
I usually get stoned here at my home for even thinking that, but considering everything I know, I think nuclear energy can still be a viable alternative to coal, gas and oil.

(08-02-2017, 03:10 PM)Millhouse Wrote: 3. A massive reduction of nuclear weapons from all countries, that would overall be below the threshold of the extinction level.

Yeah alright. Still, I thik about those that say if there weren't nuclear weapons, the cold war wouldn't have stayed cold. It's an argument both appalling and hard to deny.

(08-02-2017, 03:10 PM)Millhouse Wrote: 4. Life exists outside of our solar system.

Agreed. The chance it doesn't is vanishingly small.

(08-02-2017, 03:10 PM)Millhouse Wrote: 5. The Earth is not 6000 years old, as the Flintstones is fictional and not based on what really happened.

Well, of course. Whoever claims it's 6000 years old because the bible says so is incredibly naive and I wouldn't trust this person's logic in any respect.

(08-02-2017, 03:20 PM)jason Wrote: Can we all agree that we (most of us) are Americans? Can  we all agree that we want  our kids to have 
a  good life? Can we all agree that media sensationalism, large corporations, and piss poor leadership in the federal government seem to be making us lose sight of this?

Well, ok, I'm a strong sympathizer, I guess that counts.

(08-02-2017, 03:37 PM)tigerseye Wrote: The main stream media is propaganda to manipulate the public in concert with others. People need to investigate and discover truth telling news outlets. They are out there but you have to look.

God Bless America!

Could you provide some of these trustworthy outlets? You obviously looked and found, so let's share the reward of that research of yours.

(08-02-2017, 04:05 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: We can all agree that constant fingerpointing at overgeneralized groups like "leftists" and "rightists" and "MSM" does absolutely nothing constructive and just makes meeting in the middle that much more difficult.

We can all agree that the US needs massive healthcare reform.

We can all agree that we have a disturbing tendency to vote and follow politicians based on often irrational emotion rather than on policy or even facts.

I say yes. I don't mind the word MSM though.

(08-02-2017, 04:38 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: 1. The Steelers suck

Yes. Yes they do.

(08-02-2017, 07:45 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Marijuana should be legalized and taxed? With the money being saved from less prison/ crime fighting costs and a huge windfall of tax revenue our infrastructure, healthcare and social security invested in.

That's an interesting one. Maybe going through, I would agree.