Quote:This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave Of Anti-Americanism
Nathan Eckert
George W. Bush may think that a war against Iraq is the solution to our problems, but the reality is, it will only serve to create far more.
This war will not put an end to anti-Americanism; it will fan the flames of hatred even higher. It will not end the threat of weapons of mass destruction; it will make possible their further proliferation. And it will not lay the groundwork for the flourishing of democracy throughout the Mideast; it will harden the resolve of Arab states to drive out all Western (i.e. U.S.) influence.
If you thought Osama bin Laden was bad, just wait until the countless children who become orphaned by U.S. bombs in the coming weeks are all grown up. Do you think they will forget what country dropped the bombs that killed their parents? In 10 or 15 years, we will look back fondly on the days when there were only a few thousand Middle Easterners dedicated to destroying the U.S. and willing to die for the fundamentalist cause. From this war, a million bin Ladens will bloom.
And what exactly is our endgame here? Do we really believe that we can install Gen. Tommy Franks as the ruler of Iraq? Is our arrogance and hubris so great that we actually believe that a U.S. provisional military regime will be welcomed with open arms by the Iraqi people? Democracy cannot possibly thrive under coercion. To take over a country and impose one's own system of government without regard for the people of that country is the very antithesis of democracy. And it is doomed to fail.
A war against Iraq is not only morally wrong, it will be an unmitigated disaster.
No It Won't
Bob Sheffer
No it won't.
It just won't. None of that will happen.
You're getting worked up over nothing. Everything is going to be fine. So just relax, okay? You're really overreacting.
"This war will not put an end to anti-Americanism; it will fan the flames of hatred even higher"?
It won't.
"It will harden the resolve of Arab states to drive out all Western (i.e. U.S.) influence"?
Not really.
"A war against Iraq is not only morally wrong, it will be an unmitigated disaster"?
Sorry, no, I disagree.
"To take over a country and impose one's own system of government without regard for the people of that country is the very antithesis of democracy"?
You are completely wrong.
Trust me, it's all going to work out perfect. Nothing bad is going to happen. It's all under control.
Why do you keep saying these things? I can tell when there's trouble looming, and I really don't sense that right now. We're in control of this situation, and we know what we're doing. So stop being so pessimistic.
Look, you've been proven wrong, so stop talking. You've had your say already. Be quiet, okay? Everything's fine.
You're wrong.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
From the military people I've spoken too, the people of Iraq's main problem is that we left them hanging when someone decided to pull all the troops out (yes I know that he just didn't renew the contract/commitment, where Bush had date set to leave or renew).
(11-19-2015, 09:05 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: From the military people I've spoken too, the people of Iraq's main problem is that we left them hanging when someone decided to pull all the troops out (yes I know that he just didn't renew the contract/commitment, where Bush had date set to leave or renew).
I have seen a lot of things that point to our invasion being the cause of the problems in the first place. If we hadn't invaded, I have seen arguments that ISIS would not exist.
A big problem in Iraq was our lack of a plan for the aftermath. We disbanded the Ba'ath party without using their engineers and personnel infrastructure. These guys, or many of them, were part of the regime just to make a living. Same with their military. We disbanded them and left most of them without any way of feeding thei families. We allowed looting for days and days and that just snowballed into resentment towards America. I urge those that are interested to watch this documentary about precisely this subject.
-That which we need most, will be found where we want to visit least.-
(11-19-2015, 10:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have seen a lot of things that point to our invasion being the cause of the problems in the first place. If we hadn't invaded, I have seen arguments that ISIS would not exist.
I have seen them, too.
I will say that some of them warrant consideration.
(11-19-2015, 09:05 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: From the military people I've spoken too, the people of Iraq's main problem is that we left them hanging when someone decided to pull all the troops out (yes I know that he just didn't renew the contract/commitment, where Bush had date set to leave or renew).
Stop listening to revisionist history. Iraq wanted our troops removed.
We spent ten years there. If we had stayed another ten it would not have changed anything. Just more Americans dying for nothing.
(11-19-2015, 09:05 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: From the military people I've spoken too, the people of Iraq's main problem is that we left them hanging when someone decided to pull all the troops out (yes I know that he just didn't renew the contract/commitment, where Bush had date set to leave or renew).
They're wrong.
We created the insurgency and tourist terrorism. There wasn't any Al Qaeda in Iraq until after we invaded. Militant clerics weren't popping up like weeds until after we invaded.
We created the insurgency and tourist terrorism. There wasn't any Al Qaeda in Iraq until after we invaded. Militant clerics weren't popping up like weeds until after we invaded.
They're wrong about what ?
Different people have different opinions and I am only relaying a few experiences of my friends.
My nephew was training Iraqis.
He had them in formation and a sniper blew one of the Iraqi's head apart, less than two feet away from him.
He speaks fluent Arabic, grew his beard out, sat in the tea houses gathering information, and came to genuinely love the Iraqi people.
So, please forgive me for giving him a touch of credibility.
That being said, I don't disagree that more insurgents popped up, after we invaded.
The terrorists came to get some and their religious leaders followed.
I agree with those facts.
I guess what I was trying to add initially was that when we left without fulfilling promises, we created an animosity that made them primed to be scooped up by radicals.
We left them in worse shape than when Saddam was in charge.
(11-21-2015, 09:00 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: They're wrong about what ?
Different people have different opinions and I am only relaying a few experiences of my friends.
My nephew was training Iraqis.
He had them in formation and a sniper blew one of the Iraqi's head apart, less than two feet away from him.
He speaks fluent Arabic, grew his beard out, sat in the tea houses gathering information, and came to genuinely love the Iraqi people.
So, please forgive me for giving him a touch of credibility.
That being said, I don't disagree that more insurgents popped up, after we invaded.
The terrorists came to get some and their religious leaders followed.
I agree with those facts.
I guess what I was trying to add initially was that when we left without fulfilling promises, we created an animosity that made them primed to be scooped up by radicals.
We left them in worse shape than when Saddam was in charge.
I responded to this . . .
Quote:the people of Iraq's main problem is that we left them hanging
That's not their main problem. Anyone who thinks that is their main problem is wrong. I stand by that, but I didn't mean to be disrespectful. If you thought I was then I apologize.
(11-21-2015, 09:00 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: They're wrong about what ?
Different people have different opinions and I am only relaying a few experiences of my friends.
My nephew was training Iraqis.
He had them in formation and a sniper blew one of the Iraqi's head apart, less than two feet away from him.
He speaks fluent Arabic, grew his beard out, sat in the tea houses gathering information, and came to genuinely love the Iraqi people.
So, please forgive me for giving him a touch of credibility.
There are plenty of other soldiers that were there who disagree with your nephew. So he doesn't really have any more credibility just because he was there.
All I l know is that the elected officials in Iraq did not want our troops there any longer, and that is who we had to deal with. The Iraqi people know this also. So they can not blame the US fro leaving when their own government wanted them out.
(11-21-2015, 09:00 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: I guess what I was trying to add initially was that when we left without fulfilling promises, we created an animosity that made them primed to be scooped up by radicals.
We left them in worse shape than when Saddam was in charge.
We were there 10 years. We trained their army and gave them billions in support. There is nothing more we could have domne other than make then a US territory and stay there forever.
We never should have been there in the first place, but we could not just take over the country and make it a US territory.
(11-21-2015, 11:06 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I responded to this . . .
That's not their main problem. Anyone who thinks that is their main problem is wrong. I stand by that, but I didn't mean to be disrespectful. If you thought I was then I apologize.
I'm cool, but it was nice of you to offer.
In the spirit of maintaining conversion, what is the Iraqi's main issue ?
What was your experience ?
(11-21-2015, 11:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: There are plenty of other soldiers that were there who disagree with your nephew. So he doesn't really have any more credibility just because he was there.
All I l know is that the elected officials in Iraq did not want our troops there any longer, and that is who we had to deal with. The Iraqi people know this also. So they can not blame the US fro leaving when their own government wanted them out.
We were there 10 years. We trained their army and gave them billions in support. There is nothing more we could have domne other than make then a US territory and stay there forever.
We never should have been there in the first place, but we could not just take over the country and make it a US territory.
Understood.
But they wanted us to leave, because we were not getting the job done.
Yes, it should have been taken care of within 10 years and I understand that you have to cut bait sometime.
It just sucks.
I spoke of my nephew because I felt that his time in the tea houses afforded him a lot more exposure to public opinion.
Of course I realize that the opinions were strictly regional and were not expressive of the entire country.
I just want to make note that I never stated that anyone was wrong.
I shared bits of discussions I've had.
I will say that I probably should have said "ONE of the main problems" in my OP.
(11-21-2015, 11:23 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: I'm cool, but it was nice of you to offer.
In the spirit of maintaining conversion, what is the Iraqi's main issue ?
What was your experience ?
Did you watch the documentary Devil's Advocate posted? I was there for all of that. Sat on the border in the Kuwaiti desert for three months waiting to invade. Part of 3rd Infantry Division which I think most would say led the invasion. Occupied Baghdad trying to reestablish the infrastructure. As a battalion physician assistant my two main jobs were treating the injured and developing the evacuation plan to support the commander's intent. After we occupied Baghdad, we were additionally tasked with getting the hospitals up and running again. The joke was I was the Deputy Minister of Health. At least until Bremer took over for Garner and started f'n things up left and right.
Iraq has so many problems it is difficult to pick just one. If I had to pick one: instability. Mesopotamia and warfare are practically conjoined twins with written history of war dating back as far as 3200 BC. The place has always had war and it always will. There isn't a damn thing we can do about it.
Remember War Games with Matthew Broderick?
"The only winning move is not to play." As Broderick's character says, "Learn, god dammit." It's pretty sad when a ficticious movie computer is more intelligent than humanity.
(11-21-2015, 11:50 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: Understood.
But they wanted us to leave, because we were not getting the job done.
Yes, it should have been taken care of within 10 years and I understand that you have to cut bait sometime.
It just sucks.
I spoke of my nephew because I felt that his time in the tea houses afforded him a lot more exposure to public opinion.
Of course I realize that the opinions were strictly regional and were not expressive of the entire country.
I just want to make note that I never stated that anyone was wrong.
I shared bits of discussions I've had.
I will say that I probably should have said "ONE of the main problems" in my OP.
I will say from my experiences, the citizens of Baghdad were thankful we overthrew Saddam. However, they wanted us to leave almost immediately. They wanted the right to self determination.
(11-21-2015, 11:58 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I will say from my experiences, the citizens of Baghdad were thankful we overthrew Saddam. However, they wanted us to leave almost immediately. They wanted the right to self determination.
That's understandable.
I guess my understanding was the infrastructure was never completely restored.
Is that incorrect ?
If it is correct, then I would think it would add greatly to the instability and generate disdain towards the US.
Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.
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