Transgenders in the news

[GMDino]

(06-06-2017, 12:43 AM)Vlad Wrote: What do you mean by "average man".  The average male athlete?

My guess is that an average male athlete would destroy the very best female athlete in any of the sports you listed.

[Arturo Bandini]

One dude seems to be worried for his balls right here.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-06-2017, 07:53 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That would be a fairly easy one to solve.  Using track times, you could look through records of men's times in any given event.  Find one somewhere in the middle of all times recorded that season, and compare it to the top women's times in the same event.

That could be the basis for one comparison. Or you could go to any weekend road race and watch how many men are beaten by the top woman finisher.

Additionally, my question assumed Vlad was more representative of "average" than a D1 male athlete who qualified for the NCAA Track and Field Championship.

Personally, I was an above average runner in college with a small scholarship and could average sub 5 minute miles. When I was at 3rd Ranger Battalion there were two men out of approximately 600 who could out run me. I couldn't beat the top female finishers in the women's 5 or 10K. The average Ranger who is already an above average runner couldn't beat the top female finishers. Vlad's comment the average male athlete could destroy the top female finishers in the sports listed is so based in ignorance it makes me chuckle.

Off topic: Check out trak fitness. I just found out about them. They may have some products you might be interested in if you don't already know about them.

[Matt_Crimson]

(06-06-2017, 12:18 AM)jason Wrote: I'm just curious. Do transgender athletes always "destroy" or dominate against young women? Or do we only get worked up when they they do? The reason I ask is that there are plenty of women in this world who can outrun, strike out, hit, hoop on, and in some cases physically beat the ass of many "average" men. When I was in my teens and early 20s, I played a lot of basketball. That doesn't mean that I could have dressed as a woman, walked on the lady Buckeye basketball team, and led them to the final 4. I (and many of you) would have been embarrassed if I tried.  My curiosity doesn't compel me to investigate this phenomenon of transgenders ruining women's/ girls sports. Just thought someone may know how fequently this is happening

I think how often this happens is a good question, however, I think the question talks past what's really important here. All you need is one transgendered athlete to take their sport seriously and they effectively ruin the work and dreams of the women they're competing against. I think your question about "average men" is an interesting one, but I think in order to have a meaningful discussion about "average men" we would first need to define what an average man is in terms of an athlete.

From my perspective, when I was 15 years old I didn't take track and field seriously but I ran an 11.0 second 100m in the 10th grade. I never did any training other than school practices and those practices did not include weight training whatsoever. The average women's 100m time in the Olympics is around 10.9. That means I only ran 0.1 seconds slower than women training at the olympic level, and I wasn't even trying nor were my muscles fully developed at that age.

[BmorePat87]

(06-06-2017, 08:42 AM)GMDino Wrote:

To be fair, does an out of shape guy in his 50's constitute "average"?

[GMDino]

(06-06-2017, 09:31 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: To be fair, does an out of shape guy in his 50's constitute "average"?

I figured someone would know that part of the story!  

But sure, why not?  Just past middle-age, athletic, etc.  Probably in better shape that most men his age at the time. (Above average if you will.)

Still, photo posted purely for the bragards of the world. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-06-2017, 09:20 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I think how often this happens is a good question, however, I think the question talks past what's really important here. All you need is one transgendered athlete to take their sport seriously and they effectively ruin the work and dreams of the women they're competing against. I think your question about "average men" is an interesting one, but I think in order to have a meaningful discussion about "average men" we would first need to define what an average man is in terms of an athlete.

From my perspective, when I was 15 years old I didn't take track and field seriously but I ran an 11.0 second 100m in the 10th grade. I never did any training other than school practices and those practices did not include weight training whatsoever. The average women's 100m time in the Olympics is around 10.9. That means I only ran 0.1 seconds slower than women training at the olympic level, and I wasn't even trying nor were my muscles fully developed at that age.

That wasn't fair to the male sprinters who took their training seriously.

[Matt_Crimson]

(06-06-2017, 09:51 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That wasn't fair to the male sprinters who took their training seriously.

No it wasn't. I got 7th place against real competition.

[GMDino]

(06-06-2017, 09:20 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I think how often this happens is a good question, however, I think the question talks past what's really important here. All you need is one transgendered athlete to take their sport seriously and they effectively ruin the work and dreams of the women they're competing against. I think your question about "average men" is an interesting one, but I think in order to have a meaningful discussion about "average men" we would first need to define what an average man is in terms of an athlete.

From my perspective, when I was 15 years old I didn't take track and field seriously but I ran an 11.0 second 100m in the 10th grade. I never did any training other than school practices and those practices did not include weight training whatsoever. The average women's 100m time in the Olympics is around 10.9. That means I only ran 0.1 seconds slower than women training at the olympic level, and I wasn't even trying nor were my muscles fully developed at that age.

I don't know when you were 15 years old, but the women's world record is only 10.49 set in 1988!

You could have been a women's world record holder with a little effort! 

[Matt_Crimson]

(06-06-2017, 10:18 AM)GMDino Wrote: I don't know when you were 15 years old, but the women's world record is only 10.49 set in 1988!

You could have been a women's world record holder with a little effort! 

2005.

And yeah, crazy that no one has broken that yet. It's been speculated that she was on steroids but it was never proven.

[Au165]

(06-06-2017, 10:12 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: No it wasn't. I got 7th place against real competition.

Really? Your time would have got you 2nd place in the Ohio Boys D1 state championship this year. You sure you remember that correctly? Maybe a very strong tail wind?

[Benton]

Just tossing out an idea, as far as team sports go, would there be any issue with transgender athletes competing on boys teams?

It wouldn't address individual sports like track, but for team sports there's already small schools that have females competing on male teams just to make roster.

[GMDino]

(06-06-2017, 10:25 AM)Au165 Wrote: Really? Your time would have got you 2nd place in the Ohio Boys D1 state championship this year. You sure you remember that correctly? Maybe a very strong tail wind?

I knew some natural athletes that may have been true for.  The types that just never had to practice had an innate ability to be "good" at almost every sport.

[Au165]

(06-06-2017, 11:08 AM)GMDino Wrote: I knew some natural athletes that may have been true for.  The types that just never had to practice had an innate ability to be "good" at almost every sport.

He missed his calling then. If he could have been state runner up as a 10th grader with no "real" practice he was going to college for free. In 2005 his time would have put him in 5th at the D1 Ohio State Championships. So the question is, did you run in Ohio and if so is that you that was 5th in the state? Side note, his time would have made him runner up in D2 and 1st in D3.

[Matt_Crimson]

(06-06-2017, 10:25 AM)Au165 Wrote: Really? Your time would have got you 2nd place in the Ohio Boys D1 state championship this year. You sure you remember that correctly? Maybe a very strong tail wind?

I'll have to correct myself on that. I ran 11.5 in 10th grade, not 11.0. I ran 11.0 in the 11th grade.

That year (10th grade) my school sent me to Track and Field champinships in Toronto Ontario and I got absolutely obliterated. Here I was thinking I was hot shit cause I was schooling everyone in my city (I beat everyone in the 200m race too), but when I got to Toronto that really made me realize how much better the competition was at the championship level, and that my natural talent wasn't enough.

Not to toot my own horn but Im very gifted naturally as an athlete (well not height wise. I'm only 5'7). I'm the very definition of wasted talent and I kind of regret it now.  Had I taken things seriously I honestly think I'd be playing a pro sport somewhere.

[Au165]

(06-06-2017, 11:22 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'll have to correct myself on that. I ran 11.5 in 10th grade, not 11.0. I ran 11.0 in the 11th grade.

That year (10th grade) my school sent me to Track and Field champinships in Toronto Ontario and I got absolutely obliterated. Here I was thinking I was hot shit cause I was schooling everyone in my city (I beat everyone in the 200m race too), but when I got to Toronto that really made me realize how much better the competition was at the championship level, and that my natural talent wasn't enough.

Not to toot my own horn but Im very gifted naturally as an athlete (well not height wise. I'm only 5'7). I'm the very definition of wasted talent and I kind of regret it now.  Had I taken things seriously I honestly think I'd be playing a pro sport somewhere.

Okay, 11.5 is a far cry from 11.0 so we are getting somewhere. Were you hand timed or electronic timed? Looking at the Canadian high school database your 11.00 second time, assuming wind unaided and electronic, would have been around 40th all time for Ontario by an U18 male athlete.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-06-2017, 09:20 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That could be the basis for one comparison. Or you could go to any weekend road race and watch how many men are beaten by the top woman finisher.

Additionally, my question assumed Vlad was more representative of "average" than a D1 male athlete who qualified for the NCAA Track and Field Championship.

Personally, I was an above average runner in college with a small scholarship and could average sub 5 minute miles. When I was at 3rd Ranger Battalion there were two men out of approximately 600 who could out run me. I couldn't beat the top female finishers in the women's 5 or 10K. The average Ranger who is already an above average runner couldn't beat the top female finishers. Vlad's comment the average male athlete could destroy the top female finishers in the sports listed is so based in ignorance it makes me chuckle.

Off topic: Check out trak fitness. I just found out about them. They may have some products you might be interested in if you don't already know about them.

I will throw in these facts...

Katie Ledecky set a world record in Women's 400m Freestyle at the 2016 Olympics. That world record? It would have put her in 43 out of 51 in the Men's Qualifier, so she would have been a solid 35 spots away from even qualifying for the final, where if she did get in the final, she would have been in last place by almost *ten seconds* slower than the next slowest guy.

Elaine Thompson won the Women's 100m dash at the 2016 Olympics. Her gold medal time would have put her at tied for 65th out of 69 among the Men's Round 1. In the finals, the difference between 1st and 8th place was 0.25 seconds. The difference between 8th place and her was 0.65 seconds.

[Matt_Crimson]

(06-06-2017, 11:41 AM)Au165 Wrote: Okay, 11.5 is a far cry from 11.0 so we are getting somewhere. Were you hand timed or electronic timed? Looking at the Canadian high school database your 11.00 second time, assuming wind unaided and electronic, would have been around 40th all time for Ontario by an U18 male athlete.

It was electronic. As far as wind I'm not sure.

[Belsnickel]

(06-06-2017, 08:19 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: In this case the school or system is allowing her to compete with girls without undergoing hormone therapy, which would not be allowed by the NCAA. Under NCAA rules, she would have run with the boys. They should change their policies to more closely match the NCAA.

It's interesting that this post has been ignored. I just wanted to quote it and second this. High school leagues should mirror NCAA policies regarding trans athletes or at least be comparable for the high school level.

Edit: I actually did some searching for the rules in Virginia and found this article: http://www.nbc12.com/story/32114768/equality-virginia-vhsl-transgender-policy-leading-the-south-and-nation

Was surprised at how open it actually is here, now.

[Bengalzona]

Back in high school some 30+ years ago, we had a girl on our wrestling team. She did fairly well (she also had a judo blackbelt). Nobody really thought that much about it back then, except to tease guys she beat about their sagging manhood. She was universally supported by her teammates. She didn't have any questions about her sexual identity: she was female and was comfortable with the package she came in (just as the guys she dated were comfortable with her package). She didn't even think of herself as a feminist. She just enjoyed wrestling and contact sports and was dam good at it. Her father was a world class body builder and the family was real close with Larry Pacifico, the former world champ power lifter from the 70's.