Trump Announces Abortion now a state issue. He will not attempt a National ban

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 11:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: "Ever politician ever"?

But Trump "isn't a politician"!  He's an "outsider"!  He "speaks his mind"! 

Trump says whatever so he'll get praise.  That's it.  That's his whole being.

So he'll take credit and deny having any part of it depending on the day.

Me thinks you got the wrong message from my post. I basical said that.

[*pally*]

(04-09-2024, 10:58 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: You just defined every politician ever. 

This is why I say it's a good political move. He's finally learning how the political game is played. And you know my stance on that. Don't hate the player...

But this the abortion issue...the only issue today that no politician can get away with not taking a real stance on.  The right to lifers think he abandoned them and took the coward's way out.  The pro-choice people know he is lying so will only serve to provide more reasons to expose the hypocrisy.

[Luvnit2]

This is typical off the rails liberal take on Trump's stance on abortion. Trump should take credit for overturning Roe Vs. Wade.


The Supreme Court never banned abortion as the left falsely claims. They said as Trump said yesterday, abortion is a state issue.

Trump upset those hard liners who feel abortion should never happen. As for the far left who want abortion up until birth and in some cases after birth, he will never win their vote or make them happy.

The voters have seen all of the liberals' dirty tricks going after Trump. They attacked him prior to his wining 2016. They said he was a Russian spy. They said he would get us into a World War (yet only POTUS in recent history to not get us in any war and no wars in the middle east or Ukraine).

Liberals have a problem; Trump has 4 years of being a great POTUS and the attacks simply are falling on deaf ears.

Abortion has zero chance of being banned by Congress. Therefore, zero chance for liberals' myth Trump would sign it if it came across his desk.

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 12:10 PM)pally Wrote: But this the abortion issue...the only issue today that no politician can get away with not taking a real stance on.  The right to lifers think he abandoned them and took the coward's way out.  The pro-choice people know he is lying so will only serve to provide more reasons to expose the hypocrisy.

Yeah maybe. But I don't think you're giving either side much credit because it's not that cut and dry. Reading this article from NPR claims the following:

Quote:Support for abortion rights at or near a high

In this survey, 61% said they mostly support abortion rights, 37% count themselves as opposed. That support is at or near record highs in the Marist survey and other surveys taken over the last 20 years or so.
A third of Republicans also qualify themselves as mostly supporting abortion rights, not an insignificant share in a party that has made opposition to abortion rights a litmus test for political candidates.

An equal percentage to those who say they mostly support abortion rights also say either they or someone they know has had an abortion. That includes 69% of Democrats, 59% of independents and even a majority of Republicans (54%).
Six-in-10 continue to disagree with the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade, according to the poll. But the data also show there has been little change in abortion attitudes since the Dobbs decision.

Two-thirds want abortion limited to the first trimester
Despite the majority support for abortion rights generally, 66% said abortion should be legal in, at most, the first three months of a pregnancy.

Almost 9 in 10 Republicans and three-quarters of independents want to see abortion restricted to three months or less. A majority of Democrats favor a longer window, but even 42% of Democrats want to see it limited.


Republicans risk going too far — again
On yet another issue, Republicans in red states are overplaying their hand politically, pushing policies that are out of step with the majority of Americans.
Many of the proposed laws that conservatives are pushing in the states — and through the courts — are highly unpopular.

Majorities supported:

• allowing abortion at any time during a pregnancy, if the life of the mother was at risk — 7 in 10 Republicans were in favor, too;
  
• allowing an abortion at any time during pregnancy in cases of rape or incest — also a majority of Republicans supported this; and
  
• allowing states, where abortion is legal, to be safe havens for those seeking abortions from other states.
  
  

Here, 58% of Republicans oppose safe-haven states, which puts GOP candidates in the potentially difficult position of opposing safe havens to appeal to the GOP base, but risking turning off persuadable voters in a general election.


Majorities opposed:

• allowing abortions until only six weeks. Even a majority of Republicans opposed this, although the 40% overall supporting a six-week ban is up from 27% in May of last year; and
• banning access to a medication abortion. Again, this includes a majority of Republicans (55%).
  
  

What's more, though they don't have a majority saying so, Democrats are more trusted than Republicans on handling the issue of abortion — 41% say Democrats and 25% say Republicans. A quarter say neither party, and another 1 in 10 said both parties are the same or weren't sure.

https://www.npr.org/2023/04/26/1171863775/poll-americans-want-abortion-restrictions-but-not-as-far-as-red-states-are-going

[Luvnit2]

TY Harley for the poll.

I find it interesting those on the left attempt to paint Republicans as anti-abortion (no abortion ever, even for mother or baby medical dangers). It is not true, but liberals use an extreme red state to make their case.

Yet, it is Democrats who refuse the bend, look at the science and consider term limits. Democrats still want Nationwide abortion up until birth.

Who is radical in their stance, Republicans or Democrats?

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 12:22 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Abortion has zero chance of being banned by Congress. Therefore, zero chance for liberals' myth Trump would sign it if it came across his desk.

I agree. Most congressmen and senators are not going to choose abortion as the grenade to fall on. Most Republican voters are in favor of abortion within limits. So yeah, wouldn't happen.

[GMDino]

(04-09-2024, 12:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: TY Harley for the poll.

I find it interesting those on the left attempt to paint Republicans as anti-abortion (no abortion ever, even for mother or baby medical dangers). It is not true, but liberals use an extreme red state to make their case.

Yet, it is Democrats who refuse the bend, look at the science and consider term limits. Democrats still want Nationwide abortion up until birth.

Who is radical in their stance, Republicans or Democrats?

Ah...irony.

[MrRager]

(04-09-2024, 11:21 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: The only attempted state ban I've heard of is in Texas and I've seen it here. As for your first sentence, I'm not against fewer regs on business. I've made it clear how I stand there. It's a free country and if you don't like a company's standpoint on something, then you don't have to give them your business. For the latter part, you're never going to convince me the GOP wants more regulations on individuals than the Dems do. 

This is something I always find fascinating. Maybe we consume news from different sources, or place different values on different rights, but I would say the exact opposite of the bolded. 


Off the top of my head, in my lifetime, the GOP has stood against:

• Abortion
• Other reproductive rights like plan B, birth control, and IUDs
• Marijuana legalization
• Gay marriage
• Polygamy
• Euthanasia
• Drag shows
• Gender freedoms
• Alcohol (lived in a dry county, couldn't buy alcohol on Sundays in other areas)
  

I mean hell, we have a sitting supreme court justice who has mentioned revisiting the cases that allow birth control and same sex marriage. An Indiana senator backtracked, but did mention it was wrong to federally rule on interracial marriage and that should be left to the states. All of these are the state regulating individuals that I just cannot understand. All of these have minor, if any, impact on other poeple, yet many have been or are major platforms for GOP politicians. 


That isn't even mentioning things like freedom from religion. Deeply red areas and politicians have or have discussed requiring Christian messaging in public areas likes schools. Major GOP politicians have stopped local governments from making their own rules, which seems like the same issues just scaled down a level. 


Maybe I just value these individual liberties more than you, or we see these impacting others differently, but I find it difficult to stomach these regulations and claim that the GOP is better in this regard than the dems. 


What regulations do you see from the dems and how to you weight them against some of the above list? A couple major ones that stand out to me are gun regulations and the handling of COVID.  

[*pally*]

(04-09-2024, 12:22 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: This is typical off the rails liberal take on Trump's stance on abortion. Trump should take credit for overturning Roe Vs. Wade.


The Supreme Court never banned abortion as the left falsely claims. They said as Trump said yesterday, abortion is a state issue.

Trump upset those hard liners who feel abortion should never happen. As for the far left who want abortion up until birth and in some cases after birth, he will never win their vote or make them happy.

The voters have seen all of the liberals' dirty tricks going after Trump. They attacked him prior to his wining 2016. They said he was a Russian spy. They said he would get us into a World War (yet only POTUS in recent history to not get us in any war and no wars in the middle east or Ukraine).

Liberals have a problem; Trump has 4 years of being a great POTUS and the attacks simply are falling on deaf ears.

Abortion has zero chance of being banned by Congress. Therefore, zero chance for liberals' myth Trump would sign it if it came across his desk.

please explain how abortion is happening for an infant post-birth?  and please show me evidence of ANYONE on the left advocating for it.  This ridiculous claim is the nonsense that makes you all look like idiots.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2024, 02:09 PM)pally Wrote: please explain how abortion is happening for an infant post-birth?  and please show me evidence of ANYONE on the left advocating for it.  This ridiculous claim is the nonsense that makes you all look like idiots.

So why are you so unwilling to compromise with legal abortions in the first tri-mester? 

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 01:49 PM)MrRager Wrote:

• Abortion - Most republicans are not against abortion - also, abortion wasn't banned, it was given to the states.
• Other reproductive rights like plan B, birth control, and IUDs - I could be wrong, but I beleive the issue here is government funded
• Marijuana legalization - Marijuana was federally banned in 1937 during the FDR (D) administration.
• Gay marriage - 49% of Republicans suppoprt sam-sex marriage. https://news.gallup.com/poll/506636/sex-marriage-support-holds-high.aspx
  
• Polygamy 
• Euthanasia
• Drag shows
• Gender freedoms
• Alcohol (lived in a dry county, couldn't buy alcohol on Sundays in other areas) This is a state issue and many democratic states have liquar laws.
  

What regulations do you see from the dems and how to you weight them against some of the above list? A couple major ones that stand out to me are gun regulations and the handling of COVID.  

Consider the bolded above. The 4 morality issues I didn't attempt to address because I'm not sure I want to dig into all that.

As for Dem regs controlling people, you really don't have to look far. You can't buy a large soda in NY because its not good for you / Everything California / Gas Appliances / Bidens EV mandate, etc. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2024, 02:36 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Consider the bolded above. The 4 morality issues I didn't attempt to address because I'm not sure I want to dig into all that.

As for Dem regs controlling people, you really don't have to look far. You can't buy a large soda in NY because its not good for you / Everything California / Gas Appliances / Bidens EV mandate, etc. 

I think the birth control one is more in line with Churches not wanting it to be an option on their Employee's health plans.

Which i disagree with 100%. Fed should just mandate it as a covered item and tell the church to butt-out of people's personal choice. I'd much rather people be on BC than using abortions as a means of BC.

What the Abortion supporters won't tell you, is that 40% of all women have 2 or more abortions. That kinda seems like it's being used as a method of BC.

[*pally*]

(04-09-2024, 02:26 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So why are you so unwilling to compromise with legal abortions in the first tri-mester? 

there is a big difference between a 40-week viable pregnancy and a 12-week pregnancy with a lot of time in between for things to happen.  

You are not going to legislate abortion out of existence except for poor people with limited options. So the goal should be to change the circumstances that lead to them in the first place

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 03:02 PM)pally Wrote: there is a big difference between a 40-week viable pregnancy and a 12-week pregnancy with a lot of time in between for things to happen.  

You are not going to legislate abortion out of existence except for poor people with limited options.  So the goal should be to change the circumstances that lead to them in the first place

By "Things to Happen," are you talking health wise for the mother and baby?

[*Nately120*]

(04-09-2024, 02:36 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: As for Dem regs controlling people, you really don't have to look far. You can't buy a large soda in NY because its not good for you / Everything California / Gas Appliances / Bidens EV mandate, etc. 

It's funny you mention this, because I live in PA where you can't legally buy more than X amount of alcohol at once.  I bought booze for folks coming over and I had to make two purchases and walk out to my car twice due to the amount I was buying.  Also, there was a small town bar in my hometown that had Trump and freedom and all this signs and flags all over the place...well, not too long after that PA was entertaining making it so that alcohol could be purchased at the Sheetz and other non-bar establishments.  Wouldn't you know it, that same bar had signs outside that told everyone to vote NO in regards to my freedom to buy beer at a convenience store like a normal state.  Freedom is great, unless it means I'm free to buy beer someplace else.

I'm not talking about you specifically, but the love people think they have for freedom doesn't last long when you bring up freedom of people to hurt their wallet or do stuff they think is wrong/gross.  

(04-09-2024, 03:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: By "Things to Happen," are you talking health wise for the mother and baby?

I'm also skeptical "health of the mother" is going to be something that'll be taken into consideration.  All  you need to do is point out that doctors are lying or being paid by George Soros to say that women who want abortions NEED them because of their health and support for that exception will get shaky. Enough people will side with politicians over doctors once again to bring that into doubt. 

[*pally*]

(04-09-2024, 03:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: By "Things to Happen," are you talking health wise for the mother and baby?

among other things...yes

[MrRager]

(04-09-2024, 02:36 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Consider the bolded above. The 4 morality issues I didn't attempt to address because I'm not sure I want to dig into all that.

As for Dem regs controlling people, you really don't have to look far. You can't buy a large soda in NY because its not good for you / Everything California / Gas Appliances / Bidens EV mandate, etc. 

• Abortion - Most republicans are not against abortion - also, abortion wasn't banned, it was given to the states. - I understand that, but which party's politicians are writing legislation to ban it at the state level? With one state criminalizing traveling to legal states? Seriously, you cannot be blind to the clear party divide on this issue.
  

• Other reproductive rights like plan B, birth control, and IUDs - I could be wrong, but I beleive the issue here is government funded - That is definitely part of it. Some politicians have outright talked about banning it. It may have been at the state level as well. Why wouldn't it be funded like any other healthcare?
  
• Marijuana legalization - Marijuana was federally banned in 1937 during the FDR (D) administration. - That was nearly 100 years ago. Which party and states primarily want to keep it illegal and among politicians who support legalization, which party has the most candidates advocating legalization? 
  
• Gay marriage - 49% of Republicans suppoprt sam-sex marriage - 49% is absurdly low in 2024 if you really want to frame yourself as a proponent of individual freedoms. It clearly isn't that important of a right given how many rebuplicans vote for candidates that are not gay marriage advocates.
  

Do you honestly believe that over the last 30 or so years republicans have been on the side of granting these individual freedoms? All of these are big government telling the people what they are not allowed to do. 


Good shout with the NY soda law. I find that one to be less important or on par with the others in the post, especially considering that people still have access to soda, but you are correct that is a restriction. 
I'm in a similar boat on the gas appliances in that I value that freedom less than others, you may disagree. There are no federal or state bans, it can adversly affect outside parties not making the decision, and there are many alternatives available. 
Everything California - like what?
For the EV mandate, similar boat again. I just don't value that freedom as highly as something like who I'm allowed to marry. It is also a decade long transition plan that doesn't ban an individual from buying an ICE car.   


I guess we just value different freedoms, you with soda/gas stoves and me with reproductive rights/interracial marriage 

[*Nately120*]

AZ sc just voted 4-2 today to rollback their abortion access to a standard set by a law that can be traced back to 1901 or even 1864.  So they're pushing to get abortion access on the 2024 ballot now, which will probably lead to a situation where voters say "YES" but 4 appointed republicans say "NO" so....ida know, I doubt republicans are just going to let these states have what they voted for.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/arizonas-top-court-revives-19th-century-abortion-ban-2024-04-09/







And I'd like to reiterate that I wish Mark Kelly were running for president instead of Biden.  But yea, on a political level I'd say this is going to add some perk to Biden's 2024 chances any time a swing state has 4 republican judges use their state's rights to decide to enforce abortion laws from the era of the Civil War.

[Luvnit2]

The fact is Democrats are the ones kicking and screaming like a 3 year old about abortion. The right to abortion was never in our constitution, the SC fixed the error with Roe vs. Wade which should never have been allowed. Just think how many babies Democrats killed when Roe vs. Wade was enacted. Republicans fight for the baby, Democrats could care less about the baby.

There are far right conservatives who say no to abortion and it is wrong. There should always be an exception for mother or baby in severe (possible death).

It is the Democrats who fail to look at the science and work with conservatives on term limits with exceptions. Why?

It is now up to the states to come up with their abortion laws. I will never agree with California or far left leaning states allowing abortion up to birth (non-medical emergency. Those are the far left will never agree with no abortion after 15 weeks except for a medical emergency. There are conservatives in California who disagree with the far left position just as there are far left Democrats in Florida who do not agree with any type of term limits.

The SC ruling was 100% correct, there was no right to abortion in the constitution. The other part is there are so many ways today for birth control (teens can get free birth control without parent consent) methods to insure an unwanted pregnancy. If a woman is raped, there is a morning after pill they can take to stop the pregnancy.

Many conservatives including Trump are speaking out against a National ban on abortion. Yet, Democrats and their advocates continue to push for anytime abortion up until birth. No compromise at all from Democrats while many conservatives who value life are no longer taking a harf line stance.

It has been asked, but not answered. Why no ban once science tells us the baby has a heart beat and feels pain. They go from a fetus to a living human being, yet Democrats refuse to discuss the science, refuse to fight for the baby which is the hypocrisy of the left and their all-inclusive ideals they preach. They more compassion for a transgender than they do for a baby in the womb. Maybe, they will figure out someday, you can love both.

[*Nately120*]

(04-10-2024, 11:11 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It is now up to the states to come up with their abortion laws.

That's what is interesting about this.  It goes back to the states and in AZ you have a state that currently sits as a "blue state" with two democrat senators (Sinema was elected as a democrat, but it also looks like Ruben Gallego is likely to win that seat next) and a democrat as a governor (again, narrowly thanks to Kari Lake) which just had a state SC comprised of 7 republicans rule to enforce an abortion law from the 1860s.

This isn't a good advertisement for how "sending abortion to each state" will go when you see voters in red states like Kentucky, Kansas, and Ohio vote to protect abortion rights while the handful of republicans in power in those states are doing the opposite of what the voters want.  It makes it look like the plan is for a handful of republicans to enact more strict abortion laws than the populace of the state wants, which is why I'm thinking the real plan for republicans is to get Trump back in office, take back the thin senate majority from democrats and get a federal ban on Trump's desk.

And the other side is that the plan is for AZ to get protecting abortion rights onto the 2024 ballot, which could help Biden not lose AZ or any other state that is a toss up but has responded to Trump's putting this on the states by rolling things back to the 1800s, or so.  

I just can't imagine most voters in AZ are on board with what their state SC has decided, which makes it look like this whole "back to the states" thing makes more sense on paper than in practice.


So far it seems like we are seeing:

1. send it back to the states
2. blue states enable access
3. red states do not enable access
4. people in red states vote to enable access