Trump, Kim sign "comprehensive" document

[jj22]

(06-14-2018, 03:20 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Eh, I've got more important things to worry about. 

It's not a gesture of respect. Can you imagine the POTUS saluting the Nazi Germany Army? The Japan Army? Al Queda commanders? I'm not saying Trump knew what he was doing. I'm sure he probably didn't. But it's the fear many had with him going over there. He wasn't prepared. And now there's pics everywhere of the American President saluting the NK commander whose sole mission is the destruction of America and Japan.. It's a shocking moment in American history, and I doubt he'd do it to our Allied commanders (which is another problem with how friendly he was with Kim and company).

There's no saluting the enemy army by the Commander n Chief of the United States of America. If you aren't outraged, you don't understand the significance of the salute from the POTUS, and you really have a lack of respect for our military and vets. That's why you don't see many people defending it, and many vets speaking out against it.

[BmorePat87]

(06-14-2018, 03:12 PM)Griever Wrote: i get why people are mad

its one thing to be bowing at/towards/in the presence of a saudi prince (which both trump and obama did)

its a different thing to salute a military official of a military that has pledged the destruction of america

I won't go the Obama critics route and say it cheapens anything in the US.

But I will say it invalidates his arguments against anthem protests. 

[Bengalzona]

(06-14-2018, 02:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is one of those controversies that I am not jumping on the bandwagon for. I don't have an issue with gestures of respect from our POTUS. Whether was Bush, Obama, or Trump. This is just one of those things that is ridiculous. Sure, it's fun to point out the hypocrisy of those that bashed Obama, but that gets tiring and it isn't helpful.

Then again, it is not like he was saluting the leader of a foreign nation. This was one of his generals. The leader of our country salutes generals from other countries. There is a reason why 99.999999999% of national leaders don't do that: if you are a leader, they are supposed to salute you.

[*bfine32*]

(06-13-2018, 11:37 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Reading through this thread and the past threads regarding a potential meeting between Trump and Kim, I am incredibly impressed with how mature and open minded most people were. The majority of posters expressed hope but also reservations given North Korea's history. There was maybe one or two posters per thread that were outright dismissive, but that they were outliers.

There were some people who displayed a pattern in nearly every thread of engaging in attacks unrelated to the topic, often making up stuff or intentionally mischaracterizing posts, but it seems like people are learning to ignore that childish behavior and our threads are becoming more and more productive.

Keep it up, team.

Making personal attacks while complimenting others on refraining from doing so.

[fredtoast]

(06-13-2018, 06:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course he knows how it works. The fact that he said that plainly illustrates it. He may think NK is still a nucular power, but he gains nothing by saying such this close after the summit.

You've got to be kidding me.

So if Trump said "NK is STILL a nuclear threat until we get inspection and verification" THAT would that mean he doesn't know how this works?

The minds of the Trump supporters never cease to amaze me.  "Yep.  When Trump says something really stupid that just shows how smart he is, but if he says the truth that would mean he was stupid."

[Dill]

(06-14-2018, 04:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Making personal attacks while complimenting others on refraining from doing so.

Personal attacks need to be directed at a person.  Bpat's post mentions no one by name.

It is up to the reader to determine WHO was "dismissive" or "engaging attacks unrelated to the topic" or "making up stuff or intentionally mischaracterizing posts" based on the evidence actually afforded by posts in this thread.

It is also up to the reader to determine WHETHER Bpat's "attacks" are really attacks--or descriptions of how some actually behave. Separating "attacks" from descriptive statements is a requirement of accurate analysis and honest civil discourse. (E.g., if I claim that, according to our Intel services, Kim Jong Un ordered the death of his uncle and half brother, the North Korean press would call this an "attack" on the Dear Leader; most posters in this forum, having been raised in the US, an open society with a free press, would see the statements as descriptive and true. Certainly my claim shows Kim in a bad light, but most here would say it is Kim's own behavior, not my statements, which make him look bad.)

In short, there is no "personal attack" if 1) no person is named and 2) if some unnamed persons have actually engaged in the behavior referenced.  In the case of Bpat's post, there is only an exhortation for all to do better.

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2018, 05:11 PM)Dill Wrote: Personal attacks need to be directed at a person.  Bpat's post mentions no one by name.

It is up to the reader to determine who was "dismissive" or "engaging attacks unrelated to the topic" or "making up stuff or intentionally mischaracterizing posts" based on the evidence actually afforded by posts in this thread.

It is also up to the reader to determine whether Bpat's "attacks" are really attacks--or descriptions of how some actually behave.

In short, there is no "personal attack" if 1) no person is named and 2) if some unnamed persons have actually engaged in the behavior referenced.  There is only an exhortation for all to do better.

Sure

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2018, 05:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You've got to be kidding me.

So if Trump said "NK is STILL a nuclear threat until we get inspection and verification" THAT would that mean he doesn't know how this works?

Pretty much anything he said would be an example of him not knowing how it works by some. As to the message itself: Many understand (and I'll go out on a limb and suggest POTUS knows the status better than us) NK is still a nuclear threat until complete denuclearization, but he earns nothing from his base by saying so. Coming out of the meeting and claiming he has solved the nuclear crisis earns him points with his base; many of whom couldn't point of NK on a map.  

[hollodero]

(06-14-2018, 05:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Pretty much anything he said would be an example of him not knowing how it works by some. As to the message itself: Many understand (and I'll go out on a limb and suggest POTUS knows the status better than us) NK is still a nuclear threat until complete denuclearization, but he earns nothing from his base by saying so. Coming out of the meeting and claiming he has solved the nuclear crisis earns him points with his base; many of whom couldn't point of NK on a map.  

I have to side with fred here... that sounds a bit like kidding. Sure it plays better with his base, which basically works if one sees it as actually lying to people who, as you said, can't find the Koreas on a map. But not only isn't that proof of him understanding stuff, it's also a justification to say just about anything as long as it's popular with gullible and uneducated supporters. What kind of measure stick is that?

[fredtoast]

(06-14-2018, 05:35 PM)hollodero Wrote: I have to side with fred here... that sounds a bit like kidding. Sure it plays better with his base, which basically works if one sees it as actually lying to people who, as you said, can't find the Koreas on a map. But not only isn't that proof of him understanding stuff, it's also a justification to say just about anything as long as it's popular with gullible and uneducated supporters. What kind of measure stick is that?

That was my point.  Trump supporters don't even realize how absurd their logic is.

"If he says something dumb that proves he is smart, but if he says something smart that proves he is dumb."

It is insane to try and reason against logic like that.  The dumber he acts the smarter they claim he is.

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2018, 05:35 PM)hollodero Wrote: I have to side with fred here... that sounds a bit like kidding. Sure it plays better with his base, which basically works if one sees it as actually lying to people who, as you said, can't find the Koreas on a map. But not only isn't that proof of him understanding stuff, it's also a justification to say just about anything as long as it's popular with gullible and uneducated supporters. What kind of measure stick is that?

It isa measuring stick that worked all the way to the White House. It's fine to say he's playing to his base, but I see no correlation between him proclaiming NK is no longer a nuclear threat and him not knowing how it works. He knows perfectly well how it works and has a shinny white house to show for it.

Of course I think he spouts off things that are based little in fact, but it's a small price to pay for results and many eat it up. Folks have the opportunity to make a difference in 2020. I wish they would realize that instead of hanging on every tweet.

[XenoMorph]

(06-14-2018, 05:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It isa measuring stick that worked all the way to the White House. It's fine to say he's playing to his base, but I see no correlation between him proclaiming NK is no longer a nuclear threat and him not knowing how it works. He knows perfectly well how it works and has a shinny white house to show for it.

Of course I think he spouts off things that are based little in fact, but it's a small price to pay for results and many eat it up. Folks have the opportunity to make a difference in 2020. I wish they would realize that instead of hanging on every tweet.

We made the difference in 2016

No way Clinton should have even been a canidate for the white house 

[fredtoast]

(06-14-2018, 05:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  but I see no correlation between him proclaiming NK is no longer a nuclear threat and him not knowing how it works. 

So the fact that he is 100% wrong doesn't have anything do with him knowing how it works?

The measuring stick for "knowing how it works" used to be saying things that were smart and correct, but now that Trump is in charge stupidity is a sign of genius.

And the shocking thing is how so many people are fine with that.

How is he going to justify asking for inspection and verification when he has already said they are no longer a threat? Even if you love to hear hims ay stupid things surely you can't accept the cases where he absolutely contradicts himself.  If you love stupid then you have to be consistent and stick with stupid.  You can't say his comments to day are smart and then disagree with them in the future.  At that point there is zero logic in anything you say.  at that point you are just a mindless sheep supporting whatever ignorant drivel comes out of his mouth.

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2018, 06:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So the fact that he is 100% wrong doesn't have anything do with him knowing how it works?

The measuring stick for "knowing how it works" used to be saying things that were smart and correct, but now that Trump is in charge stupidity is a sign of genius.

And the shocking thing is how so many people are fine with that.

How is he going to justify asking for inspection and verification when he has already said they are no longer a threat? Even if you love to hear hims ay stupid things surely you can't accept the cases where he absolutely contradicts himself.  If you love stupid then you have to be consistent and stick with stupid.  You can't say his comments to day are smart and then disagree with them in the future.  At that point there is zero logic in anything you say.  at that point you are just a mindless sheep supporting whatever ignorant drivel comes out of his mouth.

Nowhere did I say his comments were smart. I believe them to not be, but the point you are missing is that he had a reason to say them and it was to demonstrate to his base that he solved the NK nuclear issue. So the reason he said it was smart. Really no need to call folks mindless sheep; many just like what they are hearing.

But do the conservative base a favor; continue with your insults (basket of deplorables worked great for your girl) of the base and taking issue with the tweets.

[hollodero]

(06-14-2018, 05:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It isa measuring stick that worked all the way to the White House.

Yes.
That doesn't justify it though. You act like it does. I challenge that logic.

(06-14-2018, 05:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's fine to say he's playing to his base, but I see no correlation between him proclaiming NK is no longer a nuclear threat and him not knowing how it works.

He knows perfectly well how it works and has a shinny white house to show for it.

There's also no correlation that he does know how it works. All that he says and states and claims and tweets - as your own viewpoint suggests - gives no insight into that. The only thing one can say is - he knows that some folk believe anything he says and hence he says bombastically positive things. That's all the understanding he actually displays.
Conduct unworthy of a president. Says me.

-
And yes, it got him to the White House. That doesn't show his ways are brilliant, it show that the american voting system is anything but. That's a fair way to look at things.
Also, and sure that's just a personal assumption I know you could somewhat share, you don't have to be that much of a genius to overcome an incredibly dumb political opponent that runs with the disaster that was Hillary Clinton. That's just severe political failure. I get that part.

But aside from that... that shiny white house line just works better with Americans, I suppose. Not so much with the observer. We don't see every US president as inherently ingenious, in this case we (well, most of us) see Trump as an incredibly low point in American history. The white house doesn't lift him up, he humiliates it. (In the sum of things, not with the summit.)

(- Sorry about that to all Americans, I'm just trying to stay honest.)

(06-14-2018, 05:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course I think he spouts off things that are based little in fact, but it's a small price to pay for results and many eat it up. Folks have the opportunity to make a difference in 2020. I wish they would realize that instead of hanging on every tweet.

Yeah... folks hang on every tweet because of guys like you. That's true for me. I just can't wrap my head around that. I get that some people are blind followers, that he has a base. I get the two parties and tribalism. I can't get how smart people find (which is impressive enough) and then argue incredibly swaying logical bridges to go along, or at least be somewhat fine, with Trumpism. And in the end, actively or passively, give him the majority.


-- Sad thing is, regarding North Korea I even were wiling to give Trump some credit, and certainly the best wishes. But when he declares "threat eliminated" and hence makes such an ass of himself and such a joke of it all, I just can't do it any longer.
Are there any "results" to level that all out, make all of it irrelevant? Not to me, no. The only thing that was achieved with the summit is SK and others being irritated and not knowing what to make of all that - and both men being mighty proud of themselves. Everything else is wishful thinking or assuming the most positive possibility will become reality. I wish for peace and don't care who delivers it, but that doesn't make me assume anything could be a first step and hence all Trump does shall be overseen and forgiven. 

I mean, yesterday he doubled down on previous outrageous statements and called some media America's biggest enemy. That's just not ok, not even to be silently tolerated, not even when he just met a mass murderer and signed a nothing document even Pompeo had to explain as having little relevance. I have a hard time trusting a man like that with anything, no matter how many chose him over Hillary.

[NATI BENGALS]

I had a good laugh today seeing that pic of Trump saluting a NK general. Then a little piece of me died.

[Belsnickel]

(06-14-2018, 05:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: He knows perfectly well how it works and has a shinny white house to show for it.

Knowing how to campaign does not mean one knows how to govern; it doesn't mean he understands the policy aspects. I'd say it's obvious he knows how to campaign, which is why he's never stopped. That's not where his ignorance lies.

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2018, 07:19 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yes.
That doesn't justify it though. You act like it does. I challenge that logic.



There's also no correlation that he does know how it works. All that he says and states and claims and tweets - as your own viewpoint suggests - gives no insight into that. The only thing one can say is - he knows that some folk believe anything he says and hence he says bombastically positive things. That's all the understanding he actually displays.
Conduct unworthy of a president. Says me.

-
And yes, it got him to the White House. That doesn't show his ways are brilliant, it show that the american voting system is anything but. That's a fair way to look at things.
Also, and sure that's just a personal assumption I know you could somewhat share, you don't have to be that much of a genius to overcome an incredibly dumb political opponent that runs with the disaster that was Hillary Clinton. That's just severe political failure. I get that part.

But aside from that... that shiny white house line just works better with Americans, I suppose. Not so much with the observer. We don't see every US president as inherently ingenious, in this case we (well, most of us) see Trump as an incredibly low point in American history. The white house doesn't lift him up, he humiliates it. (In the sum of things, not with the summit.)

(- Sorry about that to all Americans, I'm just trying to stay honest.)



Yeah... folks hang on every tweet because of guys like you. That's true for me. I just can't wrap my head around that. I get that some people are blind followers, that he has a base. I get the two parties and tribalism. I can't get how smart people find (which is impressive enough) and then argue incredibly swaying logical bridges to go along, or at least be somewhat fine, with Trumpism. And in the end, actively or passively, give him the majority.


-- Sad thing is, regarding North Korea I even were wiling to give Trump some credit, and certainly the best wishes. But when he declares "threat eliminated" and hence makes such an ass of himself and such a joke of it all, I just can't do it any longer.
Are there any "results" to level that all out, make all of it irrelevant? Not to me, no. The only thing that was achieved with the summit is SK and others being irritated and not knowing what to make of all that - and both men being mighty proud of themselves. Everything else is wishful thinking or assuming the most positive possibility will become reality. I wish for peace and don't care who delivers it, but that doesn't make me assume anything could be a first step and hence all Trump does shall be overseen and forgiven. 

I mean, yesterday he doubled down on previous outrageous statements and called some media America's biggest enemy. That's just not ok, not even to be silently tolerated, not even when he just met a mass murderer and signed a nothing document even Pompeo had to explain as having little relevance. I have a hard time trusting a man like that with anything, no matter how many chose him over Hillary.

I think you're missing the point. You're just going on and on about why Trump is a bad President by your standards and my point was he knows exactly what he is doing. Also "because of guys like you" many fence riders are moved to his side because of the constant rancor displayed by the opposition. For instance I've never worn an item of MAGA in my life, but if this forum ever had a get together I'd most likely be decked out in it just to see the heads explode.

[hollodero]

(06-14-2018, 07:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think you're missing the point. You're just going on and on about why Trump is a bad President by your standards and my point was he knows exactly what he is doing. Also "because of guys like you" many fence riders are moved to his side because of the constant rancor displayed by the opposition.

Constant rancor he constantly gives reason for. The "constant rancor" isn't an argument like "constant unfair rancor" would be. I don't think I was unfair. Is anything unfair?

Also, I really wonder how "my standards" aren't shared. These aren't "leftist" standards at all. How is "don't call the media the biggest enemy of the state" somehow just "my" standard? Or "don't lie about the outcome of the summit by declaring threat eliminated"? Really, those aren't "your" standards, or presidential standards? Just mine?

(06-14-2018, 07:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: For instance I've never worn an item of MAGA in my life, but if this forum ever had a get together I'd most likely be decked out in it just to see the heads explode.

Yes. For some reason, those exploding heads trump all other things. Therein might lie one reason for all that.
(Mine wouldn't explode... I'd just be wondering about this particular reasoning for doing so.)

Oh btw. for me it's not just about going on and on about why Trump's a bad president (sure I think that), more about the guys that go on and on about why he's not. Now including the "well, he sits in the white house, so his ways are the right ways" defense and the "he plays to his uninformed base, hence he knows what he's doing, and what more could one ask of a president"-defense. I can't help but wonder how that doesn't sound absurd to anyone.

[*bfine32*]

(06-14-2018, 07:49 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Knowing how to campaign does not mean one knows how to govern; it doesn't mean he understands the policy aspects. I'd say it's obvious he knows how to campaign, which is why he's never stopped. That's not where his ignorance lies.

No doubt and that's why I said he absolutely gets it with his NK declaration. Now is he ignorant in the way of politics? Who knows. I will say he doesn't do it the traditional way and may be ignorant of how it's "supposed" to be done

Folks writing him off as an ignorant buffoon are playing right into his game. I've grown tired of the narcissistic manner in which he governs and will let my voice be heard in 2020. Hopefully there is a better alternative. If not we very well may endure another 4 years of his narcissism. IMO there are much worse things in the world that a loud mouth POTUS.