Trump Said He WON'T Overturn Roe V Wade

[BmorePat87]

(10-16-2020, 09:17 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Woman should come up with a better argument than "I will do what I want with my own body".  A living human being is not "their own body".

Or you could come up with a better definition for "fetus".

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2020, 09:17 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Woman should come up with a better argument than "I will do what I want with my own body". A living human being is not "their own body".

So what you touch on here is the issue of "personhood." This is the crux upon which abortion laws tend to rely. As of right now, under the law, the unborn are not "living human beings." They are not people under the law. They have no birth certificate, no SSN, no document that identifies them as an individual with rights. Unless that changes, then it is 100% a matter of what a woman does with her own body.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-16-2020, 10:30 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I think pro life people focus too much on what women want when a lot of men are also pro choice and women aren't exactly the ones who have been making the rules in this country for the past century. 

I'm just pointing out their "my own body" argument is silly.

I'm not 100% pro life.  I believe in exceptions.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-16-2020, 10:52 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So what you touch on here is the issue of "personhood." This is the crux upon which abortion laws tend to rely. As of right now, under the law, the unborn are not "living human beings." They are not people under the law. They have no birth certificate, no SSN, no document that identifies them as an individual with rights. Unless that changes, then it is 100% a matter of what a woman does with her own body.

I understand what you are saying from a pure law perspective.  Woman are arguing "it's my body so I can kill my baby if I want to".  That is a bad argument to me.  

If you have ever seen an abortion video of a baby that is somewhat developed...............nevermind, I don't know how anyone could do something like that.

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2020, 11:03 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I'm just pointing out their "my own body" argument is silly.

I'm not 100% pro life.  I believe in exceptions.

Well maybe someone who is 100% pro life can tell you what a silly baby killer you are. 

[Mickeypoo]

(10-16-2020, 11:12 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Well maybe someone who is 100% pro life can tell you what a silly baby killer you are. 

They probably would and I can understand their point of view.  I am personally only for very early term and instances of rape, incest, life or death.  Only late term I am ok with is life or death for the mother.

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2020, 11:26 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: They probably would and I can understand their point of view.  I am personally only for very early term and instances of rape, incest, life or death.  Only late term I am ok with is life or death for the mother.

Fair enough, but where does that mindset actually fall on the spectrum between choice and life?

[Mickeypoo]

(10-16-2020, 11:32 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Fair enough, but where does that mindset actually fall on the spectrum between choice and life?

Agree and it's a tough question.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-16-2020, 11:07 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I understand what you are saying from a pure law perspective.  Woman are arguing "it's my body so I can kill my baby if I want to".  That is a bad argument to me.  

If you have ever seen an abortion video of a baby that is somewhat developed...............nevermind, I don't know how anyone could do something like that.

Why is it a bad argument to you?

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2020, 11:07 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I understand what you are saying from a pure law perspective.  Woman are arguing "it's my body so I can kill my baby if I want to".  That is a bad argument to me.  

But that's not their argument. That's what you are inferring, but what they are actually saying is that it isn't a baby, it is a part of the woman and they should be able to decide what to do with it. It isn't a baby until it is born. The argument is a bad one to you because that is how you are inferring their argument.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-16-2020, 11:51 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Why is it a bad argument to you?

Because I view a baby and the mother as two separate humans, not an extra leg, arm, hand, foot, piercing, tattoo, hair color, etc.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-16-2020, 12:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But that's not their argument. That's what you are inferring, but what they are actually saying is that it isn't a baby, it is a part of the woman and they should be able to decide what to do with it. It isn't a baby until it is born. The argument is a bad one to you because that is how you are inferring their argument.

All I can say is that the videos I have seen and the ultrasounds I have seen of my own two children, imo, easily disprove that argument.  A picture, or in this case a video/ultrasound, is worth a 1000% words.

I wonder what people would think about abortion if CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS all showed, in primetime, a complete video of an abortion of a healthy baby at 4 months?

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2020, 12:16 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: All I can say is that the videos I have seen and the ultrasounds I have seen of my own two children, imo, easily disprove that argument.  A picture, or in this case a video/ultrasound, is worth a 1000% words.

I wonder what people would think about abortion if CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS all showed, in primetime, a complete video of an abortion of a healthy baby at 4 months?

They could follow that up with a video montage of capital punishment bloopers and torturing people for spotty Intel. 

I might even pitch the idea of the slaughterhouse live feed channel sponsored by McDonald's.  Face it, we are a population that likes to ignore the realities of icky stuff we support. 

I will say when I worked in NYC and Chicago both walks from the train yo the office involved passing by people standing on the sidewalks with detailed aborted fetus posters.

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2020, 12:16 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: All I can say is that the videos I have seen and the ultrasounds I have seen of my own two children, imo, easily disprove that argument.  A picture, or in this case a video/ultrasound, is worth a 1000% words.

I wonder what people would think about abortion if CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS all showed, in primetime, a complete video of an abortion of a healthy baby at 4 months?

Most of the pro-choice people have seen the footage and the images. Considering ~90% of abortions that occur in the US occur at 13 weeks or less, using an abortion at 4 months (or 16 weeks) provides a disingenuous basis for abortion law.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-16-2020, 12:23 PM)Nately120 Wrote: They could follow that up with a video montage of capital punishment bloopers and torturing people for spotty Intel. 

I might even pitch the idea of the slaughterhouse live feed channel sponsored by McDonald's.  Face it, we are a population that likes to ignore the realities of icky stuff we support. 

What does that have to do with killing healthy babies?

[Mickeypoo]

(10-16-2020, 12:26 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Most of the pro-choice people have seen the footage and the images. Considering ~90% of abortions that occur in the US occur at 13 weeks or less, using an abortion at 4 months (or 16 weeks) provides a disingenuous basis for abortion law.

Fair point.

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2020, 12:26 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: What does that have to do with killing healthy babies?

Im saying we support all sorts of stuff we dont want to see, so abortion isn't all that different. 

[Mickeypoo]

(10-16-2020, 12:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Im saying we support all sorts of stuff we dont want to see, so abortion isn't all that different. 

I guess I don't view a botched execution of a murderer or our food supply chain the same as a baby.

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2020, 12:33 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I guess I don't view a botched execution of a murderer or our food supply chain the same as a baby.

Lots of people don't view a fetus as the same as a baby and some people see your view as a fetus as being a baby and not an acceptable to be aborted fetus.

My main point is people often have an easier time supporting stuff they don't have to see.

[*bfine32*]

Great, another abortion debate. I wonder who's going to change their stance this time.