United Nations, Syria, and international coalitions

[fredtoast]

So even though the massive number of refugees is having direct effects on countries all across the world the United Nations is powerless because Russia and China will veto any big move to remove Assad.

As most of you know I am usually against involvement in international conflicts that do not have a direct effect on the U.S. But this is a case where I would not be opposed to contributing military resources to an international coalition if it would tip the scales decisively in our favor. The last thing I would want to be involved with would be some half-assed posse that would not be strong enough to lock things down. We sure as hell don't want to get involved in some proxy war with China and Russia. But if the EU, the US, and many of the Arab League nations were all working together we could "impose peace" in Syria.

But then what do we do. Do we throw out Assad or set up free elections that he could win? What kind of country is left of Syria? Who still ,lives there? Who would they elect? Would we just have to repeat this all again in a few years?

I am almost always oppose to the United States getting into any military conflict with a country that has not attacked us. But the one exception is an international event that is effecting the political stability and economic viability of nations all across the world. This refugee problem is MASSIVE.

[StLucieBengal]

Russia is right in this instance. We are wrong. If we overthrow Assad we invite the Muslim brotherhood to win another election . We already saw what mess that created in Egypt.

And any coalition with the UN is always half assed. Because there are always conditions that limit what the troops can do, so it drags out forever.

I think it's naive to think that the UN is even a productive entitity. We let in too many of the wrong nations. It was made to combat communism and now it's a joke.

If we truly think Russia is not a threat then let them police their own region. The European countries have enough drama with the refugee crisis. They should shut all borders and send these people marching back to the Middle East where the Saudi's can take them. Along with Iran and others.

[Bengalzona]

There is nothing to be done for Syria. It is a civil war that went afoul due to outside influences. The formation of ISIL has really thrown a wrench into all of our hopes for the area.

We are covertly supplying weapons to rebels (so covertly that everyone on the planet seems to know about it :snark: ). That is about all we can do. And sometimes those weapons are being captured by ISIL and used against the Kurds and Iraqis. The one weapon type that would change the fortunes of the rebels overnight is a weapon we dare not give them: anti-aircraft missiles, particularly man-portable ones.

The Kurds, strung out between Iraq, Syria, and Turkey, are becoming a crack fighting force and the sole ground force in the combat capable of checking ISIL. Unfortunately, that puts our ally Turkey on edge and they are concerned with the Kurds in their country waging a war for independence against them. Because of this, we have to be careful in our dealings with them and they are limited primarily to defensive actions and limited offenses. Iraq: the invasion that just keeps on giving, eh.

The Iraqi Army is a waste, incapable of even rudimentary military actions such as holding positions and supporting other units. A large portion of ISIL are Sunnis from Iraq who formed the core of Saddam's base support in the former regime. There wasn't much left to work with when we decided to rebuild their army.

At this point (and I hate to say this), stabilizing Assad may be the best bet for stabilizing the entire region. Make a deal with Assad to leave him in charge in return for for amnesty for the rebels and his assistance against ISIL. For those who have any issue with that, just remember that we have made buddies with despots a lot worse than him before (and still are friends with some of them).

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Remove Assad
Move Palestinians in
Recognize Syria as a Palestinian State

[StLucieBengal]

(10-26-2015, 04:29 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Remove Assad
Move Palestinians in
Recognize Syria as a Palestinian State

Zero sympathy for the Palestinians. They elect terrorists to run their government. Then those terrorists allow the Palestinians to live like animals then use them as human shields.

They get what they asked for I guess....

[fredtoast]

(10-26-2015, 03:25 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Zero sympathy for the Palestinians.  They elect terrorists to run their government.  Then those terrorists allow the Palestinians to live like animals then use them as human shields.  

They get what they asked for I guess....

Desperate times bring desperate measures.

I don't agree with the Palestinians using terrorist tactics, but I understand why they have become this desperate.  

[StLucieBengal]

(10-26-2015, 03:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Desperate times bring desperate measures.

I don't agree with the Palestinians using terrorist tactics, but I understand why they have become this desperate.  

Agreed. But when you join with violent people then you become one of them. At some point the Palestinians were peaceful and deserved some sympathy. But now they have evolved into something violent.

[Benton]

(10-26-2015, 02:12 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: There is nothing to be done for Syria. It is a civil war that went afoul due to outside influences. The formation of ISIL has really thrown a wrench into all of our hopes for the area.

We are covertly supplying weapons to rebels (so covertly that everyone on the planet seems to know about it  :snark: ). That is about all we can do. And sometimes those weapons are being captured by ISIL and used against the Kurds and Iraqis. The one weapon type that would change the fortunes of the rebels overnight is a weapon we dare not give them: anti-aircraft missiles, particularly man-portable ones.

The Kurds, strung out between Iraq, Syria, and Turkey, are becoming a crack fighting force and the sole ground force in the combat capable of checking ISIL. Unfortunately, that puts our ally Turkey on edge and they are concerned with the Kurds in their country waging a war for independence against them. Because of this, we have to be careful in our dealings with them and they are limited primarily to defensive actions and limited offenses. Iraq: the invasion that just keeps on giving, eh.

The Iraqi Army is a waste, incapable of even rudimentary military actions such as holding positions and supporting other units. A large portion of ISIL are Sunnis from Iraq who formed the core of Saddam's base support in the former regime. There wasn't much left to work with when we decided to rebuild their army.

At this point (and I hate to say this), stabilizing Assad may be the best bet for stabilizing the entire region. Make a deal with Assad to leave him in charge in return for for amnesty for the rebels and his assistance against ISIL. For those who have any issue with that, just remember that we have made buddies with despots a lot worse than him before (and still are friends with some of them).

Pretty much my thoughts.

And for me, it's that last thing we should do in the region. Work with other countries to make sure he's stable, then pull out of the area. Afghanistan, all of it. We can't get tens of millions of people to be peaceful with each other by bombing them. And, outside of oil interests, we've got no real reason to try and get everyone to get along.

Get out of that part of the world and reinvest what we're spending on a military budget for the war(s) on renewable energy sources.

[fredtoast]

(10-26-2015, 04:05 PM)Benton Wrote: Pretty much my thoughts.

And for me, it's that last thing we should do in the region. Work with other countries to make sure he's stable, then pull out of the area. Afghanistan, all of it. We can't get tens of millions of people to be peaceful with each other by bombing them. And, outside of oil interests, we've got no real reason to try and get everyone to get along.

Get out of that part of the world and reinvest what we're spending on a military budget for the war(s) on renewable energy sources.

No amount of military activity will bring peace to the middle east as long as their politics are based on religion.  They will be at war constantly until the governments become secular.

Until there is nothing we can do.  Alternative energy may not seem efficient, but what if we include the amount we save in military spending.  Most of our serious conflicts seem to be in the middle east, so if we could forget about oil and get out of there we should be able to cut our military budget by at least 15%.  That would give us about an extra $250 million dollars a day.  That kind of money could go a long way toward helping the middle class here in the US.  

Military spending accounts for about 20% of the Federal government budget.  I believe in a strong military, but the United States accounts for about 40% of all military spending on earth.  That is just ridiculous.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-26-2015, 04:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No amount of military activity will bring peace to the middle east as long as their politics are based on religion.  They will be at war constantly until the governments become secular.

Until there is nothing we can do.  Alternative energy may not seem efficient, but what if we include the amount we save in military spending.  Most of our serious conflicts seem to be in the middle east, so if we could forget about oil and get out of there we should be able to cut our military budget by at least 15%.  That would give us about an extra $250 million dollars a day.  That kind of money could go a long way toward helping the middle class here in the US.  

Military spending accounts for about 20% of all military spending.  I believe in a strong military, but the United States accounts for about 40% of all military spending on earth.  That is just ridiculous.

We just need to get out of war time spending.

Then take a hard look at cuts across the board that actually stick.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The only way to bring about "Peace in the Middle East" is to just leave them alone and let them work it out themselves.

But what do you do about Israel? Good question and I don't know the answer except maybe leave them alone as well and just watch the Middle East burn for a while.

Once the power struggles and fighting is finished, then maybe we can ask them to join the rest of the world at the adult table.

I'm just tired of it and really don't care anymore. Leave them to their own vices so to speak and let the chips fall where they may.

A bunch of cliches I know but sometimes it describes exactly what you are thinking.