Well liberals is it time to stop July 4th being a holiday?

[*pally*]

(07-06-2023, 11:57 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In order to make his main point the other countries have to be addressed as well.  That main point being that the only countries that are castigated and held to task on this issue are the ones that A. actually care about the issue and have made corrective action about it, and B. are the main destination for immigrants precisely because of the opportunities they present and their willingness to confront uncomfortable issues.


It's like having a room full of fifty criminals, all guilty of the same crime and plenty of evidence to prove it.  Two of the fifty confess and express remorse and they are the only two that receive any punishment.  He perfectly encapsulates why even people who genuinely care about this issue are sick of their nose being constantly pushed in it.

Only one country was founded on the principle that "all men are created equal" and the failed miserably to live up to that stand for most of its first 200 years

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-06-2023, 12:25 PM)hollodero Wrote: I get the last sentence, I'm not coming down on the opposite side of the argument. As for the rest, I think this is a distorted picture, as in the US actually needs not care about other nations in the world and how they deal with historic wrongdoing. This is not a global trial where one could claim to be punished more severely than other countries for the same wrongdoing and that this were unfair. We wouldn't be quite so accepting if say China claims what they did (and do) to the Uyghurs should not be redeemed or even mentioned much since other countries did even worse things to their minorities and got away with it. Doesn't make it right or excusable.

Not to mention that again, it is not a global trial, it's not the world demanding from the US to hold themselves to task, it's coming from within your own society. Who cares if 48 others somewhere on the globe don't see things quite the same way. Still can't shake the feeling that this is global whataboutism.

And what I do not get is the point with the US and other countries being a top destination for immigrants. Sure it's true and wealth, opportunities, freedom and the relative absence of racism play a big part in that, but that again is just an indicator that these countries are better than some dire places in the world, not that they are actually good enough and need to be seen as absolved for all historical sin. And one could probably argue that especially the wealth was in part created on the backs of slavery or in Europe's case, colonization, which adds a bit of a sour note to the argument.

I don't think absolution is on anyone's wish list.  Regardless, it's simply not possible.  What I think most people want, and can't seem to get is a focus on the present and future and not, to paraphrase Murray, a constant picking at old wounds.  Why are race relations worse today then that've been in decades?  It's certainly not that there's more racism now.  Racism is never going away, but there's no way it's not at historic lows in the US, and yet the race issue is more raw and enflamed than it has been for some time.  These contradictory truths really rankle with many.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-06-2023, 12:37 PM)pally Wrote: Only one country was founded on the principle that "all men are created equal" and the failed miserably to live up to that stand for most of its first 200 years

Your point being?  We're referring to the constant references to past wrongs and you whip out a perfect example.

[hollodero]

(07-06-2023, 12:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't think absolution is on anyone's wish list.  Regardless, it's simply not possible.  What I think most people want, and can't seem to get is a focus on the present and future and not, to paraphrase Murray, a constant picking at old wounds.  Why are race relations worse today then that've been in decades?  It's certainly not that there's more racism now.  Racism is never going away, but there's no way it's not at historic lows in the US, and yet the race issue is more raw and enflamed than it has been for some time.  These contradictory truths really rankle with many.

Yeah, now that I can get behind, it puzzles me too. How people can actually claim that racism is worse than it ever was. Imho the race relations are worse than they used to be because the media machineries discovered the topic as particularly divisive and hence as particularly profitable.

What I'd argue though is what to take away from that. My ability to relate is somehow limited, but then again I'm from a country that has its own issue with atoning for our historical sins. And we too have two fractions, one that wants to remember the NS time and make amends and one that claims that should be done with, that we don't deserve to be put on the spot over it any longer. One argument sure being look at how far we've come since then, immigrants love coming here, so what's the point in bringing up the dark spots in our history. My father was among those, and he got particularly angry if an US-American talked about Nazis. Oh, they are the ones to talk, he used to shout, after committing near genocide with the native population. 

Is it a good argument? I always thought it was not. Yet it is somehow similar to the points made in the video.

[*pally*]

(07-06-2023, 12:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Your point being?  We're referring to the constant references to past wrongs and you whip out a perfect example.

The past is pertinent to today and the future.  And it means I don't care what other county's do or did in their past as it is irrelevant to the standards we should expect for this country

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-06-2023, 12:58 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, now that I can get behind, it puzzles me too. How people can actually claim that racism is worse than it ever was. Imho the race relations are worse than they used to be because the media machineries discovered the topic as particularly divisive and hence as particularly profitable.

What I'd argue though is what to take away from that. My ability to relate is somehow limited, but then again I'm from a country that has its own issue with atoning for our historical sins. And we too have two fractions, one that wants to remember the NS time and make amends and one that claims that should be done with, that we don't deserve to be put on the spot over it any longer. One argument sure being look at how far we've come since then, immigrants love coming here, so what's the point in bringing up the dark spots in our history. My father was among those, and he got particularly angry if an US-American talked about Nazis. Oh, they are the ones to talk, he used to shout, after committing near genocide with the native population. 

Is it a good argument? I always thought it was not. Yet it is somehow similar to the points made in the video.

But there has to come a time when a nation/people are no longer held to account for the sins of the past.  To not do so actually turns people away from examining those wrongs.  Why bother even trying to address and atone for them if it will never go away, never be enough.  How many generations have to pass before that wrong is no longer a burden for them to bear?  As you point out, it's not an easy question to answer, and there are absolutely people/corporations who profit off continually stoking this fire

(07-06-2023, 12:58 PM)pally Wrote: The past is pertinent to today and the future.  And it means I don't care what other county's do or did in their past as it is irrelevant to the standards we should expect for this country

No one said the past wasn't important.  How do you rectify race relations being worse than they have in decades while the amount of actual racism continues to diminish?  It's gotten that the demand for racism is exceeding the actual supply.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hate+crime+faked&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwix0rXUu_r_AhWrLEQIHe_4CskQ0pQJegQICBAB&biw=2560&bih=1336&dpr=1.5

[hollodero]

(07-06-2023, 01:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But there has to come a time when a nation/people are no longer held to account for the sins of the past.  To not do so actually turns people away from examining those wrongs.  Why bother even trying to address and atone for them if it will never go away, never be enough.  How many generations have to pass before that wrong is no longer a burden for them to bear? 

I don't know. Trying to look behind the noise though, I see indications that racism is still a present issue. I also see that past sins still have a distinct bearing in present times. Maybe these stances can be challenged fair-mindedly, it's just how I read certain studies and statistics and some recent events. And that's where I get the point of not leaving it be, when the consequences of past sins are still quite palpable. It's not just slavery, which sure happened a long time ago now. It's also the time after slavery, segregation and other racist policies were a thing many decades after slavery's end, went deep into 20th century, and it denied the black population much opportunity to advance and accumulate wealth. An argument I am sympathetic with and which leads me to believe that not everyone addressing racism and possible atonements is a bad faith actor. 

As for answers, nope I have none, I just had some issues with the arguments presented in the video.

[Lucidus]

(07-05-2023, 07:43 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If you're not aware of him Douglas Murray is an author and speaker who rejects the current "liberal" agenda and castigation of Western society.  His debate with Malcolm Gladwell is a master class at dissecting and refuting a bad faith arguer.  But he was on Piers Morgan recently (not a fan of Piers usually) and addressed this idea of reparations for slavery or other past wrongs.  It's a quick watch so I'd urge you to give it a shot.  It's extremely well stated.

I'm somewhat surprised you found this compelling. Not only does Mr. Murray's argument suffer greatly from non sequitur and false equivalency fallacies, but -- per his usual -- he's engaging in a shell game in terms of inference, evidence and relevance. 

Perhaps I could counter with an argument made by another Douglas --

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy -- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour.

Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival.   [Fredrick Douglas, 1852]

When Douglas Murray and others like him offer up atrocities committed by other nations, other societies - he misses the mark completely. While one can cite and reference countless examples of inhumanity around the world and throughout history; what America did during it's era of slavery is unique to it's own nation and own victims. Pointing to examples outside that specific situation is rather meaningless, and only serves as a diversion; one meant to alleviate responsibility and mitigate the historical damage. 

[GMDino]

(07-06-2023, 08:27 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I'm somewhat surprised you found this compelling. Not only does Mr. Murray's argument suffer greatly from non sequitur and false equivalency fallacies, but -- per his usual -- he's engaging in a shell game in terms of inference, evidence and relevance. 

Perhaps I could counter with an argument made by another Douglas --

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy -- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour.

Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival.   [Fredrick Douglas, 1852]

When Douglas Murray and others like him offer up atrocities committed by other nations, other societies - he misses the mark completely. While one can cite and reference countless examples of inhumanity around the world and throughout history; what America did during it's era of slavery is unique to it's own nation and own victims. Pointing to examples outside that specific situation is rather meaningless, as it provides no contextual relevance. Instead, it serves as a diversion; one meant to alleviate responsibility and mitigate the historical damage. 

Murray is a very good debater whether one agrees with him or not.

Gladwell is not and his way of presenting information is more thought out whether one agrees with him or not.

Gladwell was unprepared for the debate for sure.

Murray is another white guy who blames all the problems on "them", whines about anyone different from what HE thinks is normal and cries about whites not being able to redefine their history to wipe out all the bad stuff they did.

[Leon]

(07-06-2023, 08:27 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I'm somewhat surprised you found this compelling. Not only does Mr. Murray's argument suffer greatly from non sequitur and false equivalency fallacies, but -- per his usual -- he's engaging in a shell game in terms of inference, evidence and relevance. 

Perhaps I could counter with an argument made by another Douglas --

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy -- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour.

Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival.   [Fredrick Douglas, 1852]

When Douglas Murray and others like him offer up atrocities committed by other nations, other societies - he misses the mark completely. While one can cite and reference countless examples of inhumanity around the world and throughout history; what America did during it's era of slavery is unique to it's own nation and own victims. Pointing to examples outside that specific situation is rather meaningless, and only serves as a diversion; one meant to alleviate responsibility and mitigate the historical damage. 

that slave speech was 200 yrs ago buddy. nice try. things have changed since then. things aint like that now. you literal dont know what your talking about.

[Leon]

(07-06-2023, 08:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: Murray is a very good debater whether one agrees with him or not.

Gladwell is not and his way of presenting information is more thought out whether one agrees with him or not.

Gladwell was unprepared for the debate for sure.

Murray is another white guy who blames all the problems on "them", whines about anyone different from what HE thinks is normal and cries about whites not being able to redefine their history to wipe out all the bad stuff they did.

just stop please. its folks like you on the left pushing this victim narrative. i know plenty of black folks. know whats funny. none of them talk like white liberals do. they just just live there lives work hard and dont really complain like you do. weird right?

[GMDino]

(07-06-2023, 09:09 PM)Leon Wrote: that slave speech was 200 yrs ago buddy. nice try. things have changed since then. things aint like that now. you literal dont know what your talking about.

(07-06-2023, 09:12 PM)Leon Wrote: just stop please. its folks like you on the left pushing this victim narrative. i know plenty of black folks. know whats funny. none of them talk like white liberals do. they just just live there lives work hard and dont really complain like you do. weird right?

Welcome back Leon. 

[Leon]

(07-06-2023, 09:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: Welcome back Leon. 

honesy question. do you ever leave here or just type all day i always wonder how you can be here so much. do you work

[GMDino]

(07-06-2023, 09:18 PM)Leon Wrote: honesy question. do you ever leave here or just type all day  i always wonder how you can be here so much. do you work

Honest answer...why do you care Leon.

[Leon]

(07-06-2023, 09:23 PM)GMDino Wrote: Honest answer...why do you care Leon.

wouldnt say i care. just weird how much free time you have i guess

[GMDino]

(07-06-2023, 09:25 PM)Leon Wrote: wouldnt say i care. just weird how much free time you have i guess

Just weird you even pay attention to it.

Anything to add to the post besides your observation of me?

[BigPapaKain]

As a rule, I don't celebrate a country who touts freedom that regularly stops people from exercising their freedom of bodily autonomy. Seems insincere.

[Leon]

(07-06-2023, 09:48 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: As a rule, I don't celebrate a country who touts freedom that regularly stops people from exercising their freedom of bodily autonomy. Seems insincere.

theres other countries

[StoneTheCrow]

(07-06-2023, 09:48 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: As a rule, I don't celebrate a country who touts freedom that regularly stops people from exercising their freedom of bodily autonomy. Seems insincere.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-06-2023, 09:50 PM)Leon Wrote: theres other countries

Yes there are. And I don't feel like spending $50,000 to renounce my citizenship to this one. So I guess I'll use what limited freedoms I have left to go to the gym instead of watching a vulgar display of fireworks paid for with my tax dollars as opposed to spending that money helping the sick and homeless or trampling on women's and minority's rights.

The ironic part is that those actions and thoughts make me much more patriotic than someone who believes all the 'Greatest Country on Earth' bullshit.