Well liberals is it time to stop July 4th being a holiday?

[BigPapaKain]

(07-06-2023, 09:54 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote:

Little yard flags and mediocre explosives do not a party make.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-06-2023, 09:54 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Yes there are. And I don't feel like spending $50,000 to renounce my citizenship to this one. So I guess I'll use what limited freedoms I have left to go to the gym instead of watching a vulgar display of fireworks paid for with my tax dollars as opposed to spending that money helping the sick and homeless or trampling on women's and minority's rights.

Just curious, given free reign, where would you move to escape your limited freedoms?  Also, why go to the gym instead of volunteering at a homeless or women's shelter to help address the issues you clearly care so much about?  Since you clearly care about those issues.  Clearly.

Quote:The ironic part is that those actions and thoughts make me much more patriotic than someone who believes all the 'Greatest Country on Earth' bullshit.

Hey guys, patriot contest is declared!  Please tell us what's patriotic about going to the gym and wanting to emigrate for the wont of $50k?  I'm genuinely interested.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-06-2023, 10:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Just curious, given free reign, where would you move to escape your limited freedoms?  Also, why go to the gym instead of volunteering at a homeless or women's shelter to help address the issues you clearly care so much about?  Since you clearly care about those issues.  Clearly.

Who says I don't? As you said, you don't know anyone here.

Quote:Hey guys, patriot contest is declared!  Please tell us what's patriotic about going to the gym and wanting to emigrate for the wont of $50k?  I'm genuinely interested.

A patriot can see the flaws in their country and works to fix them. Maybe I'm at the gym helping the homeless maintain a healthy lifestyle on my free time. Once again, to indirectly quote you - you don't know anyone here.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-07-2023, 06:34 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Who says I don't? As you said, you don't know anyone here.


A patriot can see the flaws in their country and works to fix them. Maybe I'm at the gym helping the homeless maintain a healthy lifestyle on my free time. Once again, to indirectly quote you - you don't know anyone here.

You're correct, I don't know you.  I only know what you said, which was that if not for the $50k price tag you'd move to an unspecified country (despite being asked which).  Doesn't sound very patriotic to me.  As for the other bits, you could certainly enlighten us.  Or don't and continue preaching at us.  Your choice.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-07-2023, 11:51 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're correct, I don't know you.  I only know what you said, which was that if not for the $50k price tag you'd move to an unspecified country (despite being asked which).  Doesn't sound very patriotic to me.  As for the other bits, you could certainly enlighten us.  Or don't and continue preaching at us.  Your choice.

Building a profile?

I wonder why the bits of my private life are of such interest to you?

[BengalYankee]

(07-05-2023, 01:47 PM)pally Wrote: The blessing of being an American is that we all get to celebrate or not celebrate holidays the way we each choose.

There is no movement to get rid of the 4th as a holiday any more than there was a movement to stop the world from saying Merry Christmas but hey don't let they truth get in the way of a new conspiracy theory

[Dill]

(07-05-2023, 05:19 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I asked a simple question based on some on the left who seem to hate our independence, but likely take the holiday and not work.

Which "leftists" hate "independence."  

Do they actually say that? 

Or is your beef with people who reject a certain interpretation of U.S. which regards racial progress
as something that just naturally occurred or was was baked in at the founding. 

[Dill]

(07-05-2023, 01:41 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: https://www.foxnews.com/media/liberals-cori-bush-ben-jerrys-attack-us-july-4th-stolen-land-gleeful-white-supremacists

Our nation has gone bonkers. Our nation has forgotten and trampled on any veteran who fought so we can have free speech. These people have every right to tell s their feelings, we have every right to dismiss their unpatriotic views of the US.

I saw black people, hispanics , asians and white people celebrating the 4th of July each year. Now we are to believe black, hispanics and asians are " white supremacists" for loving their country.

I'm getting a mixed message here.

All week you've been defending free speech on another thread--even seditious speech.

Now you seem alarmed that others are exercising free speech--speech you don't agree with.

How many veterans have actually fought for free speech if we can't or shouldn't exercise it?

Why isn't seditious speech "trampling" on veterans?  

[BengalYankee]

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-07-2023, 01:48 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Building a profile?

I wonder why the bits of my private life are of such interest to you?

They don't.  You made the topic fodder for conversation with your posts.  But since you're unwilling to elaborate further we'll call it a day.  Cheers.

[*Nately120*]

(07-07-2023, 05:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They don't.  You made the topic fodder for conversation with your posts.  But since you're unwilling to elaborate further we'll call it a day.  Cheers.

British slang in an Independence Day thread?  Are we being trolled here?

[BigPapaKain]

(07-07-2023, 05:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They don't.  You made the topic fodder for conversation with your posts.  But since you're unwilling to elaborate further we'll call it a day.  Cheers.

What is there to elaborate? Do you want the actual specifics of my charitable works?

I volunteer at a local gym that opens its doors to the needy every few days and help them with cardio and weight lifting, as well as building budget friendly healthy meals. On days where I don't do that, I'm down at the animal shelter helping clean some of the more ornery ones. I clean up trash along the highways. I regularly donate clothes to battered women shelters out of my own pocket. I've given nearly $2000 to St. Jude's this year alone. If I'm feeling particularly froggy, I'll run an after school D&D program for at risk kids. 

All while working my 40 a week and helping out with my grandkids.

So yeah, getting a free day off work means I spend a few extra hours at the gym instead of blowing up foreign made shit explosives and gorging myself with processed meats.

You want more specifics of my life? I'm 6'1", brown hair with a high under cut that sits below my shoulders. I've got 10 tattoos (going for #11 tomorrow morning). I'm a Leo and I enjoy sunsets more than sunrises. I've also got a class A misdemeanor on my record that was expunged when I was 19. I've been married for 12 years, I have a Shiba Inu and a black cat - they're both gigantic babies who are spoiled rotten. I prefer PC gaming over console gaming, but own all 3 systems (no Nintendo though - they ain't had anything good for awhile now). I play guitar, bass guitar, trumpet, saxophone, clarinet, trombone, cello, violin, flute, and am serviceable at drums. I enjoy paintball, airsoft, and going to the shooting range to blow off steam. I drive a Subaru. I average around 172 pounds.

Want anything else? Maybe my social security number next time?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-07-2023, 05:41 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: What is there to elaborate? Do you want the actual specifics of my charitable works?

I volunteer at a local gym that opens its doors to the needy every few days and help them with cardio and weight lifting, as well as building budget friendly healthy meals. On days where I don't do that, I'm down at the animal shelter helping clean some of the more ornery ones. I clean up trash along the highways. I regularly donate clothes to battered women shelters out of my own pocket. I've given nearly $2000 to St. Jude's this year alone. If I'm feeling particularly froggy, I'll run an after school D&D program for at risk kids. 

All while working my 40 a week and helping out with my grandkids.

So yeah, getting a free day off work means I spend a few extra hours at the gym instead of blowing up foreign made shit explosives and gorging myself with processed meats.

You want more specifics of my life? I'm 6'1", brown hair with a high under cut that sits below my shoulders. I've got 10 tattoos (going for #11 tomorrow morning). I'm a Leo and I enjoy sunsets more than sunrises. I've also got a class A misdemeanor on my record that was expunged when I was 19. I've been married for 12 years, I have a Shiba Inu and a black cat - they're both gigantic babies who are spoiled rotten. I prefer PC gaming over console gaming, but own all 3 systems (no Nintendo though - they ain't had anything good for awhile now). I play guitar, bass guitar, trumpet, saxophone, clarinet, trombone, cello, violin, flute, and am serviceable at drums. I enjoy paintball, airsoft, and going to the shooting range to blow off steam. I drive a Subaru. I average around 172 pounds.

Why do I get the feeling that you were actually dying to share this? 

Also, congrats on being part of the PC master race.  Me too!  (note to anyone inclined to do so, this is common slang and is in no way racist or any ist or phobe)

Quote:Want anything else? Maybe my social security number next time?

Nah, you're good.  Wouldn't want you to be dark webbed.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-07-2023, 05:48 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why do I get the feeling that you were actually dying to share this? 

Also, congrats on being part of the PC master race.  Me too!  (note to anyone inclined to do so, this is common slang and is in no way racist or any ist or phobe)


Nah, you're good.  Wouldn't want you to be dark webbed.

I wasn't, which is why I hadn't. I don't do those things for kudos, I do them to be the change I want to see.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-06-2023, 09:54 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Yes there are. And I don't feel like spending $50,000 to renounce my citizenship to this one. So I guess I'll use what limited freedoms I have left to go to the gym instead of watching a vulgar display of fireworks paid for with my tax dollars as opposed to spending that money helping the sick and homeless or trampling on women's and minority's rights.

The ironic part is that those actions and thoughts make me much more patriotic than someone who believes all the 'Greatest Country on Earth' bullshit.

Where ya movin' to?  I can't think of any 1st World Nation out there that would allow you any more freedoms than you get to enjoy right here.  As far as tax dollars going to a celebratory fireworks display rather than to charity causes?  You do know that there are groups whose sole mission is to do charity work.  You should consider joining one of them, sounds like your gym affiliation already has you on that path.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-07-2023, 07:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Where ya movin' to?  I can't think of any 1st World Nation out there that would allow you any more freedoms than you get to enjoy right here.  As far as tax dollars going to a celebratory fireworks display rather than to charity causes?  You do know that there are groups whose sole mission is to do charity work.  You should consider joining one of them, sounds like your gym affiliation already has you on that path.

Everyone seems to think I'm worried about my freedoms.

Let me be crystal clear here - I'm not worried about MY freedoms.

But I have a wife whose freedoms I worry about. I have a sister whose freedoms I worry about. I have a daughter, 3 granddaughters, 11 nieces, a greatniece, gay friends, trans friends, gay family members, pan family members, trans friends - THOSE are the people whose freedoms are being threatened by one of America's major political parties, and the one that just so happens to have weaseled their way into a SCotUS majority and illegally gerrymandered their way into a veto-proof majority in my state.

I'm a cis white male - I don't have to worry about shit until the religious Right start their anti-Christian pogroms.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-07-2023, 08:38 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Everyone seems to think I'm worried about my freedoms.

Let me be crystal clear here - I'm not worried about MY freedoms.

But I have a wife whose freedoms I worry about. I have a sister whose freedoms I worry about. I have a daughter, 3 granddaughters, 11 nieces, a greatniece, gay friends, trans friends, gay family members, pan family members, trans friends - THOSE are the people whose freedoms are being threatened by one of America's major political parties, and the one that just so happens to have weaseled their way into a SCotUS majority and illegally gerrymandered their way into a veto-proof majority in my state.

I'm a cis white male - I don't have to worry about shit until the religious Right start their anti-Christian pogroms.

Appreciate your sentiment, I have friends and a relative or two that are alternative lifestyle.  I'm not sure that outrage will gain them any more acceptance than they merit through their interactions with traditional lifestyle people would gain them.  If you want to be accepted by the so-called main stream, you need to associate and build that tolerance through relationships.  But, that's just my opinion.

As to the bolded, are you saying that the vast majority of Christians in this Nation are actually anti-Christian??

[BigPapaKain]

(07-07-2023, 08:53 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Appreciate your sentiment, I have friends and a relative or two that are alternative lifestyle.  I'm not sure that outrage will gain them any more acceptance than they merit through their interactions with traditional lifestyle people would gain them.  If you want to be accepted by the so-called main stream, you need to associate and build that tolerance through relationships.  But, that's just my opinion.

As to the bolded, are you saying that the vast majority of Christians in this Nation are actually anti-Christian??

Peaceful interaction hasn't won them any favors with the so-called mainstream; outrage and violence are becoming the only options.

Ballot Box
Soap Box
Ammo Box

The ballot box is gerrymandered to **** to prevent them from making change that way. Some states and their governors and legislatures are doing what they can to take away the soap box from they. Running out of options here.

As to your final question - no not the majority. But enough will be silent if it comes to that that it might as well be the majority. Plus, history has shown that the religious can be whipped into a violent fervor with pretty little provocation. A few accusations here, a bit of fear there - that's how a bunch of women get drowned and hanged in Salem.

[StoneTheCrow]

A Native American tribe that originally controlled the land in Vermont that Ben & Jerry's headquarters is located on wants land returned to them after the company publicly called for "stolen" lands to be returned. https://t.co/QFwSXCivfO

— Ari Ingel (@OGAride) July 8, 2023

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dill]

(07-06-2023, 12:58 PM)pally Wrote: The past is pertinent to today and the future.  And it means I don't care what other county's do or did in their past as it is irrelevant to the standards we should expect for this country

(07-06-2023, 12:25 PM)hollodero Wrote: Not to mention that again, it is not a global trial, it's not the world demanding from the US to hold themselves to task, it's coming from within your own society. Who cares if 48 others somewhere on the globe don't see things quite the same way. Still can't shake the feeling that this is global whataboutism.

(07-06-2023, 08:27 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I'm somewhat surprised you found this compelling. Not only does Mr. Murray's argument suffer greatly from non sequitur and false equivalency fallacies, but -- per his usual -- he's engaging in a shell game in terms of inference, evidence and relevance. ...

When Douglas Murray and others like him offer up atrocities committed by other nations, other societies - he misses the mark completely. While one can cite and reference countless examples of inhumanity around the world and throughout history; what America did during it's era of slavery is unique to it's own nation and own victims. Pointing to examples outside that specific situation is rather meaningless, and only serves as a diversion; one meant to alleviate responsibility and mitigate the historical damage. 

(07-06-2023, 08:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: Murray is another white guy who blames all the problems on "them", whines about anyone different from what HE thinks is normal and cries about whites not being able to redefine their history to wipe out all the bad stuff they did.

You are all to be commended for rejecting Murray's framing of the debate around Western Civ. 

When someone pops up arguing that all 'races' have practiced slavery--Arabs, Africans, Asians--but "nobody is criticizing them!!" 

it implies that somewhere there are people arguing that only "whitey" has enslaved people and that is why he is uniquely bad and owes everyone else.

Though I can't be sure what is found on Youtube, I'm not aware of any historian or social scientists or group of them or school courses which actually argue the case Murray is "refuting."  I've known many actual leftists for decades, and I've never met one who was unaware of that Greece and Rome were slave economies, that Arabs and Africans engaged in slave trade, that slavery has existed in most every human society. We talking, after all, about people who study how societies have been organized throughout history. Except for some Heritage Foundation exceptions, most scholars today think "race" is a social construct, and absolutely nothing about cultural and political behavior can be deduced from biology, such that "whites" are uniquely evil. That's why folks like CRT practitioners focus on institutions.

I have met people who think reparations appropriate (though much disagreement about what that should look like), as they were for interned Japanese or, elsewhere, Jews robbed by Nazis. But that's not because "whites" are uniquely bad and "owe" minorities. It is rather because in the U.S. racial deprivation of freedom and property went forward as a state-sanctioned legal regime--not just a few bad racist "individuals." ("All races can be 'racist'" say our right wing friends, "but as 'individuals'.") 

In part, such defenses of "Western Civ" nowadays seem rather calculated, and they appeal largely to an audience of people who didn't care a fig about "civilization" until it was linked to current white grievance. The "defenses" are are not aimed at people who regularly study history. That's for sure.

But there is more to it than that. It's also about method, about a way of studying history from which modern historians began diverging in the 18th century.  And this relates to one of those things that were supposed to make Western Civilization superior--our historians recorded facts accurately, without partisanship. "Theirs" flattered their nations and leaders. And this was of a piece with our liberal democracy as well, which allowed for criticism of politicians. That was not the case in other "civilizations" supposedly, where no one could criticize rulers, or one's nation, or one's civilization. 

But that value of non-partisanship, accuracy over ideology, was never wholly shared by the non-professionals.* And now we have the irony of people not only defending Western civ in the ethnocentric terms it was supposed to uniquely transcend, but explicitly or implicitly arguing that people who like Western civ say good things about it; so people who say "bad things" about Western civ then "hate" it. People who "love" the U.S. praise and celebrate it; but people who study, teach and otherwise remind us of past racial conflict and its current legacy "hate" this country. But this will make sense to anyone who thinks that because soldiers died for our right to free speech, people should not criticize our government or the leaders of their favored party. 

Thus the non-partisan urge to report the truth accurately is subordinated to an identity politics, deliberately where those making the case know the history of "Western Civ" as an educational and political concept, developed and deployed to support white supremacy in accord with "providence" and "manifest destiny."

*nor wholly by professionals either, truth be told. But that's a different subject.