I realize this may not be breaking news to some, but I was looking over our new offensive coaches and figured out that every new hire worked for either Gary Kubiak or Mike Sherman (who was Kubiak's offensive coordinator in 2007). All have worked pretty exclusively in West Coast Offenses in the NFL.
Gary Kubiak (we tried to hire him) - Well known for his WCO, and had Mike Sherman as his OC with the Texans in 2007.
Brian Callahan - served as QB coach under WCO disciple Jon Gruden. Was an offensive assistant under Kubiak in Denver.
Jemal Singleton - also served under Gruden, and was RB coach in Indy when they were running the WCO from 2016-17.
James Casey - Played his entire career as a TE with Gary Kubiak.
Jim Turner and Ben Martin - Both coached o-line under Sherman in the WCO.
And of course, the Rams run a WCO as well. I think the only coach on the team who hasn't worked in the WCO exclusively is Bob Bicknell.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(02-11-2019, 07:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I realize this may not be breaking news to some, but I was looking over our new offensive coaches and figured out that every new hire worked for either Gary Kubiak or Mike Sherman (who was Kubiak's offensive coordinator in 2007). All have worked pretty exclusively in West Coast Offenses in the NFL.
Gary Kubiak (we tried to hire him) - Well known for his WCO, and had Mike Sherman as his OC with the Texans in 2007.
Brian Callahan - served as QB coach under WCO disciple Jon Gruden. Was an offensive assistant under Kubiak in Denver.
Jemal Singleton - also served under Gruden, and was RB coach in Indy when they were running the WCO from 2016-17.
James Casey - Played his entire career as a TE with Gary Kubiak.
Jim Turner and Ben Martin - Both coached o-line under Sherman in the WCO.
And of course, the Rams run a WCO as well. I think the only coach on the team who hasn't worked in the WCO exclusively is Bob Bicknell.
I'd say that's a good thing. Everybody on the same page. The pieces of the puzzle coming together.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ― Albert Einstein
The Rams use WCO concepts but so does everyone. They use a lot of WCO to set up vertical shots with a lot of air read and spread concepts mixed in. The idea of “schemes” is kind of dead outside a couple coaches anymore. Everyone is mixing and matching things.
(02-11-2019, 07:22 PM)Au165 Wrote: The Rams use WCO concepts but so does everyone. They use a lot of WCO to set up vertical shots with a lot of air read and spread concepts mixed in. The idea of “schemes” is kind of dead outside a couple coaches anymore. Everyone is mixing and matching things.
True to an extent, but if no one were unique and schemes were "dead", coaches wouldn't look for certain specific guys.
For example, James Casey has zero connection to Zac Taylor, except he worked with Kubiak in his offense. He also has zero NFL coaching experience.
So why hire him?
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(02-11-2019, 07:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: True to an extent, but if no one were unique and schemes were "dead", coaches wouldn't look for certain specific guys.
For example, James Casey has zero connection to Zac Taylor, except he worked with Kubiak in his offense. He also has zero NFL coaching experience.
So why hire him?
They look for guys that do certain things well. Belicheck is the greatest coach ever at doing just that.
Because he respects Gary Kubiak’s opinion? We asked to interview Kubiak that wasn’t by chance. He has limited NFL contacts because of his age so he is using a lot of Kubiak’s and Sherman’s “tree” to find guys that he can trust. There in sure is some verbiage familiarity but like I said everyone is multiple now. 20 years ago schemes were almost hard and fast rules.
(02-11-2019, 07:38 PM)Au165 Wrote: They look for guys that do certain things well. Belicheck is the greatest coach ever at doing just that.
Because he respects Gary Kubiak’s opinion? We asked to interview Kubiak that wasn’t by chance. He has limited NFL contacts because of his age so he is using a lot of Kubiak’s and Sherman’s “tree” to find guys that he can trust. There in sure is some verbiage familiarity but like I said everyone is multiple now. 20 years ago schemes were almost hard and fast rules.
We'll just have to disagree. Maybe calling an offense "West Coast" isn't all that accurate anymore, but schemes and systems definitely still exist, and coaches do look for guys who have experience in them.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(02-11-2019, 07:42 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We'll just have to disagree. Maybe calling an offense "West Coast" isn't all that accurate anymore, but schemes and systems definitely still exist, and coaches do look for guys who have experience in them.
Schemes are not systems and that may be where the issue is. The rams are multiple in scheme but have a very specific system. It sounds weird and may seem like semantics but the best way to explain it is like this. Urban Meyers spread isn’t Chip Kelly’s spread and that sure as heck isn’t Gus Malzhand spread. We woul call them all spreads (scheme) but fundamentally they are very different offenses (systems) that have a very loose thread between them being some spread aspects.
When a guy goes from team to team but we’re in the same scheme the odds of it helping much at all are minimal however if they move from the same system to system it’s probably going to be very likely they will pick it up fast. Looking back I think you were actually describing more of a shared system which does have some value to it depending how much they have all evolved over the years.
(02-11-2019, 07:43 PM)Au165 Wrote: Schemes are not systems and that may be where the issue is. The rams are multiple in scheme but have a very specific system.
Like I said "WCO" is too generic. Those labels don't work for systems these days. I do agree that most systems have a blend of schemes, but the systems still wind up getting labeled "West Coast" or "Air Coryell" etc. Maybe because those particular systems are heavy on those schemes. Kubiak and Gruden were heavy on WCO, I do know that.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(02-11-2019, 08:04 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Like I said "WCO" is too generic. Those labels don't work for systems these days. I do agree that most systems have a blend of schemes, but the systems still wind up getting labeled "West Coast" or "Air Coryell" etc. Maybe because those particular systems are heavy on those schemes. Kubiak and Gruden were heavy on WCO, I do know that.
Yea see my updated post I think it was a verbiage thing to an extent between me and you. Gruden as a side note is still very true WCO in the way he calls plays and structure although he has added some spread to it.
(02-11-2019, 07:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I realize this may not be breaking news to some, but I was looking over our new offensive coaches and figured out that every new hire worked for either Gary Kubiak or Mike Sherman (who was Kubiak's offensive coordinator in 2007). All have worked pretty exclusively in West Coast Offenses in the NFL.
Gary Kubiak (we tried to hire him) - Well known for his WCO, and had Mike Sherman as his OC with the Texans in 2007.
Brian Callahan - served as QB coach under WCO disciple Jon Gruden. Was an offensive assistant under Kubiak in Denver.
Jemal Singleton - also served under Gruden, and was RB coach in Indy when they were running the WCO from 2016-17.
James Casey - Played his entire career as a TE with Gary Kubiak.
Jim Turner and Ben Martin - Both coached o-line under Sherman in the WCO.
And of course, the Rams run a WCO as well. I think the only coach on the team who hasn't worked in the WCO exclusively is Bob Bicknell.
Seems like a nice comfortable thing Taylor is getting going. Everybody knows everybody pretty well and run about the same things. Just hope we keep it unpredictable so it won't be easy for Defenses to diagnose our Offense. Change it up and keep it unpredictable along with keeping Dalton and the Offense comfortable and aggressive.
I like what Callahan has said about the O-line being the most important part. Makes me think Hobspin is doing what he normally does and making us take a pause on FA but i doubt they don't get atleast one O-lineman in FA. The O-line to go along with our LB core are our obvious weaknesses right now.
Would be hard for anyone to ignore either of these areas after watching tape of last season.
(02-11-2019, 09:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Seems like a nice comfortable thing Taylor is getting going. Everybody knows everybody pretty well and run about the same things. Just hope we keep it unpredictable so it won't be easy for Defenses to diagnose our Offense. Change it up and keep it unpredictable along with keeping Dalton and the Offense comfortable and aggressive.
I like what Callahan has said about the O-line being the most important part. Makes me think Hobspin is doing what he normally does and making us take a pause on FA but i doubt they don't get atleast one O-lineman in FA. The O-line to go along with our LB core are our obvious weaknesses right now.
Would be hard for anyone to ignore either of these areas after watching tape of last season.
I once watched Wes Welker talking about how the Broncos put new tweaks on a lot of plays every week. One week, the route on a certain play would have a cut left at 10 yards, then the following week the WR would break right at 7 yards. I'm making that part up, but that was the gist of it. Makes the offense more difficult to predict.
Callahan was a part of that offense, so hopefully that was instilled in him.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(02-11-2019, 10:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I once watched Wes Welker talking about how the Broncos put new tweaks on a lot of plays every week. One week, the route on a certain play would have a cut left at 10 yards, then the following week the WR would break right at 7 yards. I'm making that part up, but that was the gist of it. Makes the offense more difficult to predict.
Callahan was a part of that offense, so hopefully that was instilled in him.
Reminds me of the Cam Newton play where Clay Matthews called out the play and Cam said “you been watching tape watch this” haha
(02-11-2019, 10:42 PM)Au165 Wrote: Reminds me of the Cam Newton play where Clay Matthews called out the play and Cam said “you been watching tape watch this” haha
You mean this?
Good example. With our team over the last several years, we had games against the Colts (2014) and Browns (Dalton's 2.0 game) where the defense said after the game that they knew what we were doing. It's probably been far more than that, but those 2 games both were both pretty memorable examples. And it was painfully obvious. Our routes weren't fooling anyone.
How many times have we watched other teams and seen guys WIDE open down the field and thought "that almost never happens for us"?
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
I personally believe that our skill position players are very capable, but haven't been used properly for some time.
Our route trees were stale AF, and the only person who could get open using them was the spectacular AJ Green. I haven't been too impressed with the passing game since 2015 (or the running game for that matter). I'm not sure how all of that creativity left the building without latching on to any of the coaches who remained, but somehow that happened. Excited to get some creativity back in the room.
Hell, running a creative scheme that defenders can't key in on might actually give the O-lineman a chance to be better too! Hard to play well when the D can tee off on you repeatedly. Our plays were pretty telegraphic at times last year.
(02-11-2019, 10:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You mean this?
Good example. With our team over the last several years, we had games against the Colts (2014) and Browns (Dalton's 2.0 game) where the defense said after the game that they knew what we were doing. It's probably been far more than that, but those 2 games both were both pretty memorable examples. And it was painfully obvious. Our routes weren't fooling anyone.
How many times have we watched other teams and seen guys WIDE open down the field and thought "that almost never happens for us"?
Lots. And lots. And then lots more.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ― Albert Einstein
(02-11-2019, 11:07 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I personally believe that our skill position players are very capable, but haven't been used properly for some time.
Our route trees were stale AF, and the only person who could get open using them was the spectacular AJ Green. I haven't been too impressed with the passing game since 2015 (or the running game for that matter). I'm not sure how all of that creativity left the building without latching on to any of the coaches who remained, but somehow that happened. Excited to get some creativity back in the room.
Hell, running a creative scheme that defenders can't key in on might actually give the O-lineman a chance to be better too! Hard to play well when the D can tee off on you repeatedly. Our plays were pretty telegraphic at times last year.
I have no doubt that the offensive line being poor limited the playcalling. That said, Lazor was a mediocre OC. Combine the 2 and you get a stale offense.
That said, when Eifert was healthy...the offense put up points.
I think plain and simple: Mixon, Boyd, Green, and Eifert are all really good players. Then the other WR's are fringe NFL players with none appearing capable of being a #3 WR in the NFL YET.
Now, lets see if the staff can get Ross to produce because he's the main guy that needs to step up for us to be elite.
(02-11-2019, 08:04 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Like I said "WCO" is too generic. Those labels don't work for systems these days. I do agree that most systems have a blend of schemes, but the systems still wind up getting labeled "West Coast" or "Air Coryell" etc. Maybe because those particular systems are heavy on those schemes. Kubiak and Gruden were heavy on WCO, I do know that.
Both Zac and Brian hinted at WCO philosophies in their pressers. Hobs wrote about it on the mothership. This is why I think Zac is confident with the players he has on offense. Because Jay drafted Dalton to run the WCO, and Green and Bernard have also played in it. I think the offense will actually have a much better year than folks anticipate.
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