What is Masculinty

[*Nately120*]

(05-15-2023, 08:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Masculine, it's the opposite of feminine.  Heck, the romance languages even attach gender to their words..

Damn Germans telling me I can't be sexually attracted to a pencil.

[*Nately120*]

(05-15-2023, 07:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You raise some interesting points, and thank you for the extreme honesty.  I've been hit on by gay men numerous times, it's never bothered me.  

I didn't really take it personally, but so much of my life as a kid and teen was spent playing pretend, in the sense where I was attempting to use TV and movies as a means to drive how I was supposed to act and feel about things.  As a kid you'd be told to stay out of trouble and be good, but then you'd hear stories from your fun uncles and/or watch sitcoms where the characters were always getting into trouble and having fun and I'd feel like I was missing out on living my life because I was "being too good."  There were girls in my high school that actually liked me, but TV and movies told me that the girls you went for were the ones who didn't like you, said no, and/or had boyfriends and you needed to win them over or convince them that you are the one they want (I won't break into song here, but I'm not deleting that accidental reference).  

I'm more in tune with how not too normal I am now, so I can adjust but back then I was in the societal deep end.  I can sympathize with gay and trans people in the sense that I know how much of a pain it was to live in Steeler country and avoid "shoving it down anyone's throat" that I dared to like a different team than the norm.  If that was a pain, I can only imagine how much dealing with serious issues affects folks.  At least no one thought that preferring Boomer Esiason to Mark Malone was going to damn my eternal soul to hell and needed to be illegal.

The whole "dealing with gays" was another area where I was just trying to follow the lead of society.  As a straight male I may not have cared about people being gay, but I also felt a bit of a requirement to demonstrate that gay guys shoving it down my throat, so to speak would be met with protest and derision. I never went too overboard with it, because I didn't care outside of knowing how eager people were to jump on any reaction anyone had to anything.  

I much prefer being an adult, where I can just deal with or not deal with things as I see fit.  In my internet dating days I got to the point where I was getting pretty lazy and skimming profiles and I ended up on a coffee date and realizing off the bat that my date was trans.  I was polite and it just ended up being a typical boring date we both noped out of after about 20 minutes of small talk, but I was thinking the whole time that I was probably being rude and clearly needed to look over profiles and what not.  But nope, I looked over the profile afterwards and there was nothing in plain english on it about the trans aspect.  I still feel like I must have missed something, because not mentioning that seems unwise, so maybe it was on me.  It was neither funny nor traumatic.  My gf prior to that had short hair and used to joke she could put on a baseball cap and lure in sex offenders with Chris Hansen.

Anyways, I'm shoving my sexual misadventures down your throat now.


tl;dr - I'm a man, I'm 40!

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-15-2023, 09:06 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I didn't really take it personally, but so much of my life as a kid and teen was spent playing pretend, in the sense where I was attempting to use TV and movies as a means to drive how I was supposed to act and feel about things.  As a kid you'd be told to stay out of trouble and be good, but then you'd hear stories from your fun uncles and/or watch sitcoms where the characters were always getting into trouble and having fun and I'd feel like I was missing out on living my life because I was "being too good."  There were girls in my high school that actually liked me, but TV and movies told me that the girls you went for were the ones who didn't like you, said no, and/or had boyfriends and you needed to win them over or convince them that you are the one they want (I won't break into song here, but I'm not deleting that accidental reference).  

I'm more in tune with how not too normal I am now, so I can adjust but back then I was in the societal deep end.  I can sympathize with gay and trans people in the sense that I know how much of a pain it was to live in Steeler country and avoid "shoving it down anyone's throat" that I dared to like a different team than the norm.  If that was a pain, I can only imagine how much dealing with serious issues affects folks.  At least no one thought that preferring Boomer Esiason to Mark Malone was going to damn my eternal soul to hell and needed to be illegal.

The whole "dealing with gays" was another area where I was just trying to follow the lead of society.  As a straight male I may not have cared about people being gay, but I also felt a bit of a requirement to demonstrate that gay guys shoving it down my throat, so to speak would be met with protest and derision. I never went too overboard with it, because I didn't care outside of knowing how eager people were to jump on any reaction anyone had to anything.  

I much prefer being an adult, where I can just deal with or not deal with things as I see fit.  In my internet dating days I got to the point where I was getting pretty lazy and skimming profiles and I ended up on a coffee date and realizing off the bat that my date was trans.  I was polite and it just ended up being a typical boring date we both noped out of after about 20 minutes of small talk, but I was thinking the whole time that I was probably being rude and clearly needed to look over profiles and what not.  But nope, I looked over the profile afterwards and there was nothing in plain english on it about the trans aspect.  I still feel like I must have missed something, because not mentioning that seems unwise, so maybe it was on me.  It was neither funny nor traumatic.  My gf prior to that had short hair and used to joke she could put on a baseball cap and lure in sex offenders with Chris Hansen.

Anyways, I'm shoving my sexual misadventures down your throat now.


tl;dr - I'm a man, I'm 40!

I'm just gonna leave that line alone.  

[CJD]

(05-15-2023, 08:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I actually get where you're coming from and don't totally disagree.  The key difference here is that you've never seen sympathetic coverage of a mass shooter before that one.  This person murdered children and you actually had people defending them or trying to make them sympathetic.  I can't think of a single other such incident in which the response was even close to this.  Honestly, I found it nauseating.  As someone who's seen these types of scenes first hand I can't bring myself to sympathize with the person who caused them.  I'd be willing to bet you'd feel the same, if not more similar, with the same experience.

I don't have a whole lot to add regarding the birthing people. My concern with separating trans women from women's prison is mostly in regards to sending highly feminine trans women to a men's prison simply because they have not had bottom surgery. My expectation is that trans women probably rape cis women more than cis women, but that cis men would rape a trans eoman at a significantly higher rate than trans women to cis women, so even from a utilitarian standpoint, housing trans women in women's prison is probably the best way to decrease rape involving trans people (whether victim of victimizer). If it were feasible, they'd be separated from both prisons but I bet there just aren't enough trans prisoners for that to be profitable (and, as we know many prisons are run privately for profit nowadays, which is an extreme ethical issue in itself). 

I am very sad to hear that rape is not consistently punished in prison. If anything, I'd look to solve that problem before I spent much political capital on determining where trans prisoners should go. 

Regarding the sympathy for the trans shooter, I'll just say this. 

There's a difference between an oppressor murdering the oppressed and the oppressed murdering their oppressors. 

And if you consider the two scenarios (a white man killing black and brown people out of fear of the great replacement and a trans person killing catholic people who probably put her through at least some sort of psychological trauma) one of them was likely to have experienced actual oppression whereas the other was likely to have only experienced imaginary oppression.

It's the same reason we look back on slave revolts favorably, even if the slaves acted barbarically during their revolt (rape, gruesome murder etc). But that's obviously an extreme example and it's risky to even compare to the two, lest I be accused of exaggeration. 

With that said, I only have sympathy for the trans shooter in so far as what he likely went through as a young trans man in a society that largely doesn't accept him. I have NO sympathy or belief in excusing their horrific behavior in that school, especially in regards to the innocent children that he mercilessly slaughtered. 

As soon as he picked up that gun, he became the villain, in my opinion. 

[*michaelsean*]

We didn’t discuss femininity in the other thread. We discussed what actually makes you a woman. Being a man is being born with an x and a Y chromosome. Science. Bam. Hey ladies your extra X chromosome means you have I think hundreds more genes than men. There’s bragging rights.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-15-2023, 09:38 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't have a whole lot to add regarding the birthing people. My concern with separating trans women from women's prison is mostly in regards to sending highly feminine trans women to a men's prison simply because they have not had bottom surgery. My expectation is that trans women probably rape cis women more than cis women, but that cis men would rape a trans eoman at a significantly higher rate than trans women to cis women, so even from a utilitarian standpoint, housing trans women in women's prison is probably the best way to decrease rape involving trans people (whether victim of victimizer). If it were feasible, they'd be separated from both prisons but I bet there just aren't enough trans prisoners for that to be profitable (and, as we know many prisons are run privately for profit nowadays, which is an extreme ethical issue in itself).

Not sure about the rest of the nation, but CA doesn't have for profit prisons.  My opposition to them is long standing and well documented here. 

Quote:I am very sad to hear that rape is not consistently punished in prison. If anything, I'd look to solve that problem before I spent much political capital on determining where trans prisoners should go. 

You misunderstand.  It's not that it's not punished, it's that it's not provable.  No one gets raped right in front of staff.  As I said, you don't snitch or your life goes from bad to abysmal.  Combine those two things and it's just not something that can be acted upon.  You want a prison with little to no rape, it would require a degree of control that would absolutely not be acceptable in today's environment.  It wasn't acceptable decades ago, and the climate is far more left leaning now. 

Quote:Regarding the sympathy for the trans shooter, I'll just say this. 

There's a difference between an oppressor murdering the oppressed and the oppressed murdering their oppressors. 

Not going to lie, I got major cringe vibes when I read that sentence.  Children can't oppress anyone.

Quote:And if you consider the two scenarios (a white man killing black and brown people out of fear of the great replacement and a trans person killing catholic people who probably put her through at least some sort of psychological trauma) one of them was likely to have experienced actual oppression whereas the other was likely to have only experienced imaginary oppression.

It's the same reason we look back on slave revolts favorably, even if the slaves acted barbarically during their revolt (rape, gruesome murder etc). But that's obviously an extreme example and it's risky to even compare to the two, lest I be accused of exaggeration. 

With that said, I only have sympathy for the trans shooter in so far as what he likely went through as a young trans man in a society that largely doesn't accept him. I have NO sympathy or belief in excusing their horrific behavior in that school, especially in regards to the innocent children that he mercilessly slaughtered. 

As soon as he picked up that gun, he became the villain, in my opinion. 

I get your point, but I don't think you expressed it in a way favorable to your position.  

[CJD]

(05-15-2023, 11:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not sure about the rest of the nation, but CA doesn't have for profit prisons.  My opposition to them is long standing and well documented here. 

Hopefully other states follow suit.

You misunderstand.  It's not that it's not punished, it's that it's not provable.  No one gets raped right in front of staff.  As I said, you don't snitch or your life goes from bad to abysmal.  Combine those two things and it's just not something that can be acted upon.  You want a prison with little to no rape, it would require a degree of control that would absolutely not be acceptable in today's environment.  It wasn't acceptable decades ago, and the climate is far more left leaning now. 

Fair enough. I don't have enough knowledge in the area to comment further 

Not going to lie, I got major cringe vibes when I read that sentence.  Children can't oppress anyone.

I was speaking about general powe dynamics. Obviously the children's deaths were inexcusable and only a psychopath could empathize with this shooter for that reason. As i said, "I  have NO sympathy or belief in excusing their horrific behavior in that school, especially in regards to the innocent children that he mercilessly slaughtered." An example of a "sympathetic" shooter to some could be of a trans person went back to their old school and killed a group of teachers who beat him or sent him to conversion therapy etc. I'm sorry I did not make that more clear. 


I get your point, but I don't think you expressed it in a way favorable to your position.  

Could you elaborate? Maybe you misunderstood my position based on the comment above. 

Bolded (on mobile, too difficult to break apart quotes.)

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-15-2023, 11:41 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Bolded (on mobile, too difficult to break apart quotes.)

Understandable.  What I meant is that while I get your statement, it get's easily lost when you express any sympathy/empathy for a mass shooter who murdered children.  I know that's not your intent, but it can certainly read that way.  It's a delicate topic, so text on a screen isn't the best way to make this point anyways, the medium is working against you.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

The little kid from Kindergarten Cop solved these issues 20+ years ago.

[CJD]

(05-15-2023, 11:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Understandable.  What I meant is that while I get your statement, it get's easily lost when you express any sympathy/empathy for a mass shooter who murdered children.  I know that's not your intent, but it can certainly read that way.  It's a delicate topic, so text on a screen isn't the best way to make this point anyways, the medium is working against you.

No argument here. All of this stuff is extremely delicate. That's why I do my best to handle them with nuance. Even then, I imagine it often doesn't come across perfectly.

[NATI BENGALS]

We are animals. We have created a society with norms and rules. Masculinity is some made up word to describe a person who possess the apex predator like qualities that got our species to the top of the food chain.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-16-2023, 02:49 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: We are animals. We have created a society with norms and rules. Masculinity is some made up word to describe a person who possess the apex predator like qualities that got our species to the top of the food chain.

Every single word is a "made up word."  

[*michaelsean*]

(05-15-2023, 09:38 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't have a whole lot to add regarding the birthing people. My concern with separating trans women from women's prison is mostly in regards to sending highly feminine trans women to a men's prison simply because they have not had bottom surgery. My expectation is that trans women probably rape cis women more than cis women, but that cis men would rape a trans eoman at a significantly higher rate than trans women to cis women, so even from a utilitarian standpoint, housing trans women in women's prison is probably the best way to decrease rape involving trans people (whether victim of victimizer). If it were feasible, they'd be separated from both prisons but I bet there just aren't enough trans prisoners for that to be profitable (and, as we know many prisons are run privately for profit nowadays, which is an extreme ethical issue in itself). 

I am very sad to hear that rape is not consistently punished in prison. If anything, I'd look to solve that problem before I spent much political capital on determining where trans prisoners should go. 

Regarding the sympathy for the trans shooter, I'll just say this. 

There's a difference between an oppressor murdering the oppressed and the oppressed murdering their oppressors. 

And if you consider the two scenarios (a white man killing black and brown people out of fear of the great replacement and a trans person killing catholic people who probably put her through at least some sort of psychological trauma) one of them was likely to have experienced actual oppression whereas the other was likely to have only experienced imaginary oppression.

It's the same reason we look back on slave revolts favorably, even if the slaves acted barbarically during their revolt (rape, gruesome murder etc). But that's obviously an extreme example and it's risky to even compare to the two, lest I be accused of exaggeration. 

With that said, I only have sympathy for the trans shooter in so far as what he likely went through as a young trans man in a society that largely doesn't accept him. I have NO sympathy or belief in excusing their horrific behavior in that school, especially in regards to the innocent children that he mercilessly slaughtered. 

As soon as he picked up that gun, he became the villain, in my opinion. 

I believe some prisons have separate housing for people considered at risk.  I think all prisons should have a place for people deemed a higher risk of being assaulted.  And not just solitary because that's more like punishment.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-15-2023, 08:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I've worked in a detention facility, just under four years total.  I can tell you that rape being punished is a very rare occurrence.  For one it's not done right in front of staff, and if you snitch your troubles are only beginning.  You are correct in that we've discussed this before.  I honestly don't understand why this is even a topic of discussion though.  If you have male genitalia you get housed with men, you have female genitalia you get housed with women.

Law and Order: SVU (I know, it's a fictional show) did an episode on this back in... I'd say 2000-2002 or so (it may have been a few years after, but it was definitely before 2005), in that a trans woman was working or picked up at a club or something, then once the guy who brought her back to his room/residence to have sex with her found out (at the time of having sex), he went to attack the trans woman and they defended themselves, killing the guy.

Well this blew up in the worst way in the episode and they ended up being convicted of murder or manslaughter (because either there was no proof/circumstantial proof of any crime being committed by the man or because they trans person was made an example of, I can't remember that detail) and sent to a man's prison. The trans woman never had a criminal record, bad history, nothing and the SVU team fought hard to get them to a women's prison, but because they had a penis, they were sent to a man's prison. After one brutal raping (or attack, I can't remember), they met with the SVU team again and fought again to get them transferred, but no luck. The episode ended on news that they were gang-raped again and in that encounter, ultimately killed by the other inmates as well.

It was a VERY forward and apt episode for the changing landscape of gender and sexuality in the modern world and it sticks in my mind (I watched hundreds of Law and Order episodes over a 5-6 year span, all 3 of the series, in syndication/reruns and this is one of the dozen or so that I never not think about) for 2 reasons: 1, because it exposed the potentiality of what a trans person has to go through and 2, it was a VERY depressing episode, more so than most of what they did at the time (and now, even).

Because of that episode, I've come to the realisation that any trans person has a great chance of being targeted in the prison setting they are in (though a trans man would probably have an easier time, as they aren't born with a tool for sexual manipulation), due to their difference in identifying gender and as such, I personally feel convicted criminals should be handled on a case by case basis (I mean, that's what a trial is, right? Going through the case) in terms of what facility they go to and I have felt this was for over a decade (or two), due to the episode mentioned above.

It's a slippery slope and while I will ALWAYS defer to the rule/law, if an exception or special case arises, then that takes precedence; the world (ESPECIALLY the Western World) has tried to make gray things black and white for too long: most things will never be black and white.

(I do not know the landscape of American Prisons or the Prison system, so if my thoughts are horribly inaccurate, then pay no attention to what I wrote above)

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-15-2023, 08:47 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Damn Germans telling me I can't be sexually attracted to a pencil.

lol that's not a Romance language (I think you know that)

A pencil in Italian though, is, "una matita," the, "una," signifying that it's feminine :)

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-16-2023, 10:35 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Law and Order: SVU (I know, it's a fictional show) did an episode on this back in... I'd say 2000-2002 or so (it may have been a few years after, but it was definitely before 2005), in that a trans woman was working or picked up at a club or something, then once the guy who brought her back to his room/residence to have sex with her found out (at the time of having sex), he went to attack the trans woman and they defended themselves, killing the guy.

Well this blew up in the worst way in the episode and they ended up being convicted of murder or manslaughter (because either there was no proof/circumstantial proof of any crime being committed by the man or because they trans person was made an example of, I can't remember that detail) and sent to a man's prison. The trans woman never had a criminal record, bad history, nothing and the SVU team fought hard to get them to a women's prison, but because they had a penis, they were sent to a man's prison. After one brutal raping (or attack, I can't remember), they met with the SVU team again and fought again to get them transferred, but no luck. The episode ended on news that they were gang-raped again and in that encounter, ultimately killed by the other inmates as well.

It was a VERY forward and apt episode for the changing landscape of gender and sexuality in the modern world and it sticks in my mind (I watched hundreds of Law and Order episodes over a 5-6 year span, all 3 of the series, in syndication/reruns and this is one of the dozen or so that I never not think about) for 2 reasons: 1, because it exposed the potentiality of what a trans person has to go through and 2, it was a VERY depressing episode, more so than most of what they did at the time (and now, even).

Because of that episode, I've come to the realisation that any trans person has a great chance of being targeted in the prison setting they are in (though a trans man would probably have an easier time, as they aren't born with a tool for sexual manipulation), due to their difference in identifying gender and as such, I personally feel convicted criminals should be handled on a case by case basis (I mean, that's what a trial is, right? Going through the case) in terms of what facility they go to and I have felt this was for over a decade (or two), due to the episode mentioned above.

It's a slippery slope and while I will ALWAYS defer to the rule/law, if an exception or special case arises, then that takes precedence.

(I do not know the landscape of American Prisons or the Prison system, so if my thoughts are horribly inaccurate, then pay no attention to what I wrote above)

I won't for a second try and claim that a transgender person isn't more likely to be raped in prison than a regular dude.  But the exact same thing can be said for a man who is slight of build or has feminine features.  Jared Leto, for example, would be a primary target and he's in good shape.  Prison is a brutal environment and to reverse that would take allowing the facility to exert a level of control that would have the ACLU howling.  As for your scenario, it's of course set up to engender as much sympathy for this person as possible.  But the reality is that 99.99% of the time if you end up in prison you deserve to be there.  Not saying that makes it ok for you to abused in the facility, by inmates or staff, but it's almost never going to be like the scenario from SVU.  But I know you get that.

[*pally*]

guys who describe women like Charlie Kirk does falls under the category of toxic

Just a couple of masculine bros talk manhood. Hawley says we are becoming an androgynous society, where men are just watching porn and video games. Kirk thinks America has become too feminine: “offended easily, dependent on others, passive, impressionable, and emotional.” pic.twitter.com/8D3krXcf3S

— Ron Filipkowski (@RonFilipkowski) May 15, 2023

[BigPapaKain]

Isn't Hawley the dude who got made famous by running away during January 6th when the crowd looked like it was going to breach the Capitol?

If he's masculine, I don't want to be.

[BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI]

For starters, never a Steelers fan!!

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-16-2023, 02:05 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Isn't Hawley the dude who got made famous by running away during January 6th when the crowd looked like it was going to breach the Capitol?

If he's masculine, I don't want to be.

Uh, if you see a mob of angry people whose intent is apparently hostile you'd have to be an idiot not to run away.  None of us are John Wick.