What is up with our passing game?

[*Nately120*]

(11-23-2015, 03:55 PM)Wyche Wrote: Well....you're wrong.  I couldn't care any less about which player does what.  All I care about is Ws.  Jeremy Hill is not as elusive as Giovanni Bernard, and that is a fact.  He is not as short as Giovanni Bernard, and is therefore easier for LBs to find in traffic...Fact.  Hill requires bigger holes to get through the line, that's a fact.  The opinion is whether to blame the o line or the back.  I've seen Gio get stuffed some too, but his elusiveness and stature has helped squeeze through tiny openings and turn negatives into positives.  He is running better than Hill, but I don't think it's all on Hill.  Especially after the last two weeks.

Your details make sense, but lordy...Hill.  He was so good in 2014 that he was going to be THE reason we won this year.  Run him 30 times per game...150 yards per game, best RB in the league.  The guy was great in 2014, so I'm not going to give him the "GOLDEN BINNS OFFSEASON BASELESS HYPE AWARD" of 2015, but geez...what a swing the guy made.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-23-2015, 04:06 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Your details make sense, but lordy...Hill.  He was so good in 2014 that he was going to be THE reason we won this year.  Run him 30 times per game...150 yards per game, best RB in the league.  The guy was great in 2014, so I'm not going to give him the "GOLDEN BINNS OFFSEASON BASELESS HYPE AWARD" of 2015, but geez...what a swing the guy made.

I think it's combination of a lot of things to be honest.  We played a lot more power football last year....we used the Hback more....and Hill is a tick indecisive at times too.  After watching Dalton scramble all over the field the last two games, and a poor effort on the ground, I just have to lean more with the blocking than anything else.

[Goalpost]

Taking sacks was a killer. Sure seems like Andy can see the blitz coming, hence why not just get rid of the ball and avoid the sack...

[*Nately120*]

(11-23-2015, 04:09 PM)Wyche Wrote: I think it's combination of a lot of things to be honest.  We played a lot more power football last year....we used the Hback more....and Hill is a tick indecisive at times too.  After watching Dalton scramble all over the field the last two games, and a poor effort on the ground, I just have to lean more with the blocking than anything else.

God help us if our step back in blocking is due to replacing Gresham with "Seals & Kroft."  The whole Hill off-season thing is a reason I should be a bit ashamed to admit I monitored a football message board so hard during the months nothing was being played.  Hill was SO good that:

- We were going to be a "run first" team like it was 1937
- We needed to maybe trade Gio or make him a WR so Hue wouldn't be tempted to do anything stupid like "give him the ball" when he could be giving it to Hill
- we gleefully extrapolated his YPC and TD stats while saying he was going to stop fumbling, for some reason
- if you don't have Gio and Hill rated as the best RB duo in the league you should go root for another team
- best blocking TE we have? Who needs him!

Did I miss any?  Also, should we have targeted a run-blocking FA o-lineman (ala Mike Iupati) if this was our quest?  Who knows.

[treee]

(11-23-2015, 04:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: God help us if our step back in blocking is due to replacing Gresham with "Seals & Kroft."  The whole Hill off-season thing is a reason I should be a bit ashamed to admit I monitored a football message board so hard during the months nothing was being played.  Hill was SO good that:

- We were going to be a "run first" team like it was 1937
- We needed to maybe trade Gio or make him a WR so Hue wouldn't be tempted to do anything stupid like "give him the ball" when he could be giving it to Hill
- we gleefully extrapolated his YPC and TD stats while saying he was going to stop fumbling, for some reason
- if you don't have Gio and Hill rated as the best RB duo in the league you should go root for another team

Did I miss any?  Also, should we have targeted a run-blocking FA o-lineman (ala Mike Iupati) if this was our quest?  Who knows.

My 2 cents: Jeremy Hill is a RB you have to feed consistently the whole game. The more runs he has the better he gets. He did so well last year because Gio had significantly less snaps than he is on pace for this year. I truly think we're just bailing out on the run game too early in games. Maybe they're trying to keep Hill fresh for december. Who knows?

[*Nately120*]

(11-23-2015, 04:21 PM)treee Wrote: My 2 cents: Jeremy Hill is a RB you have to feed consistently the whole game. The more runs he has the better he gets. He did so well last year because Gio had significantly less snaps than he is on pace for this year. I truly think we're just bailing out on the run game too early in games. Maybe they're trying to keep Hill fresh for december. Who knows?

I can sort of get behind that, but it's hard to commit to something that isn't working.  The Rams offense is pretty bad, so maybe this is our chance to just RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN and even if we get 2.1 YPC we can still win and not have to keep up with another team.  The Cardinals have the #1 offense in the NFL, so it's hard to justify running Hill into the line 3 times and punting when they can put up 21 points in a quarter.

This week?  RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN against the Rams and if it fails, perhaps we FINALLY know it's not due to a lack of touches. 

[Earendil]

(11-23-2015, 01:57 PM)Wyche Wrote: Bernard gets loose here and there due to his shiftiness and the ability to "get lost in the pile"....but he has been hit for losses and short gains most of the time too.  The fact that our pounder can't get going points to an o line problem to me....

How many times is Hill getting hit in the backfield from someone who got penetration up the middle?  More than I can count.

[treee]

(11-23-2015, 04:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I can sort of get behind that, but it's hard to commit to something that isn't working.  The Rams offense is pretty bad, so maybe this is our chance to just RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN and even if we get 2.1 YPC we can still win and not have to keep up with another team.  The Cardinals have the #1 offense in the NFL, so it's hard to justify running Hill into the line 3 times and punting when they can put up 21 points in a quarter.

This week?  RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN against the Rams and if it fails, perhaps we FINALLY know it's not due to a lack of touches. 

Exactly. We know we have the ability to put points on the board when needed. Why not actually play some AFC north football when we have a 1 score lead? We have a thumping Oline and a RB in hill that has a lot of pride. Feed the man. Keeps the D off the field and fresh and shows our physical superiority over the other team.

[*Nately120*]

(11-23-2015, 04:27 PM)treee Wrote: Exactly. We know we have the ability to put points on the board when needed. Why not actually play some AFC north football when we have a 1 score lead? We have a thumping Oline and a RB in hill that has a lot of pride. Feed the man. Keeps the D off the field and fresh and shows our physical superiority over the other team.

Right, just realize we can't stuff the ball into Hill's maw and suffer through 1-3 yard runs and hope he's going to "snap out of it" until we are up 2 scores or so.  Let's score 2 TDs on the Rams in the first quarter and THEN force the run.  Because forcing is literally what we are doing in this case.

I'll be a pessimist and say that until a few months ago multiple teams had the idea that Trent Richardson just needed more more more more more touches to get back into year 1 form, and well...

[treee]

(11-23-2015, 04:39 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Right, just realize we can't stuff the ball into Hill's maw and suffer through 1-3 yard runs and hope he's going to "snap out of it" until we are up 2 scores or so.  Let's score 2 TDs on the Rams in the first quarter and THEN force the run.  Because forcing is literally what we are doing in this case.

I'll be a pessimist and say that until a few months ago multiple teams had the idea that Trent Richardson just needed more more more more more touches to get back into year 1 form, and well...

I think we should try to force it, but only in the right circumstance like you pointed out. I don't think it has to be a 2 score lead. Any lead early in the game will do. We can't say it wont work because we haven't tried it. I just truly think we could demoralize and wear down a defense early in the game with Hill provided we approach it correctly. I want to see us run it 3 times in a row. We haven't done that all season and it's not that unreasonable (especially with someone like Hill). We all know that for power running to succeed it takes a certain type of mindset from the team and I'm sure you can concede we haven't fostered that mindset this year.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-23-2015, 02:46 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Teams can attack us in the A-gap.
Steelers did it.
Houston did it.
Arizona did it.

Blame goes on Andre because, people still harbor deep seeded resentment for him, and the sack-fumble was a terrible play...but the bigger concern all game was our C/RBs inability to stop the A-gap attacks. 

Smith isn't alone in the blame for sure, the were killing us in the A gap no doubt. But that doesn't change the fact that Smith was getting beat and beat bad on several plays.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-23-2015, 04:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: God help us if our step back in blocking is due to replacing Gresham with "Seals & Kroft."  The whole Hill off-season thing is a reason I should be a bit ashamed to admit I monitored a football message board so hard during the months nothing was being played.  Hill was SO good that:

- We were going to be a "run first" team like it was 1937
- We needed to maybe trade Gio or make him a WR so Hue wouldn't be tempted to do anything stupid like "give him the ball" when he could be giving it to Hill
- we gleefully extrapolated his YPC and TD stats while saying he was going to stop fumbling, for some reason
- if you don't have Gio and Hill rated as the best RB duo in the league you should go root for another team
- best blocking TE we have?  Who needs him!

Did I miss any?  Also, should we have targeted a run-blocking FA o-lineman (ala Mike Iupati) if this was our quest?  Who knows.

Ha ha ha......I hear ya.

(11-23-2015, 04:21 PM)treee Wrote: My 2 cents: Jeremy Hill is a RB you have to feed consistently the whole game. The more runs he has the better he gets. He did so well last year because Gio had significantly less snaps than he is on pace for this year. I truly think we're just bailing out on the run game too early in games. Maybe they're trying to keep Hill fresh for december. Who knows?

That's a pretty good opinion too....you may be right.

(11-23-2015, 04:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I can sort of get behind that, but it's hard to commit to something that isn't working.  The Rams offense is pretty bad, so maybe this is our chance to just RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN and even if we get 2.1 YPC we can still win and not have to keep up with another team.  The Cardinals have the #1 offense in the NFL, so it's hard to justify running Hill into the line 3 times and punting when they can put up 21 points in a quarter.

This week?  RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN against the Rams and if it fails, perhaps we FINALLY know it's not due to a lack of touches. 

Probably so!

(11-23-2015, 04:24 PM)Earendil Wrote: How many times is Hill getting hit in the backfield from someone who got penetration up the middle?  More than I can count.

There's quite a bit of this too....

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-23-2015, 05:00 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Smith isn't alone in the blame for sure, the were killing us in the A gap no doubt. But that doesn't change the fact that Smith was getting beat and beat bad on several plays.

His misses are amplified simply because of who he is. Plain and simple. He's still a good player. Part of it is we are spoiled by having Whit on the left side we just see anything less as terrible OT play. We amplify the misses. Ignore the fact that vast majority of the issues the last 3 weeks have been A-Gap...but Andre had like 3 truly bad reps!!!!!

[Joelist]

It isn't Andre who is killing us but rather Russell. And unfortunately teams have picked up on Bodine's shortcomings and are pulling stuff inside - which Bodine misses resulting in the large number of unblocked rushers through the A gap the past couple of weeks.

At this point I would start thinking of sliding Boling in to Center (where we played him in camp a fair number of snaps) and insert Fisher at LG. It can't be worse than the current turnstyle.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-23-2015, 05:25 PM)Joelist Wrote: It isn't Andre who is killing us but rather Russell. And unfortunately teams have picked up on Bodine's shortcomings and are pulling stuff inside - which Bodine misses resulting in the large number of unblocked rushers through the A gap the past couple of weeks.

At this point I would start thinking of sliding Boling in to Center (where we played him in camp a fair number of snaps) and insert Fisher at LG. It can't be worse than the current turnstyle.

Boling is a top 5 LG IMO.
I don't move him or Zeitler right now. If you wanted to, the time was in camp. Which I would have supported. 

Center SHOULD be a priority in the draft. 

[Joelist]

I'm not sure we can wait that long. The problem at Center needs to be fixed immediately if we have any ambitions of either getting the first round bye or winning a playoff game.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-23-2015, 05:37 PM)Joelist Wrote: I'm not sure we can wait that long. The problem at Center needs to be fixed immediately if we have any ambitions of either getting the first round bye or winning a playoff game.

Short of signing a new one, switching guys around this late in the year won't make anything better that quickly 

[Earendil]

Alex Mack will probably be a free agent at the end of this year. Doesn't help now, but it's worth looking into. Then again, we know the Bengals don't make big splashes in the FA market.

[XenoMorph]

(11-23-2015, 05:37 PM)Joelist Wrote: I'm not sure we can wait that long. The problem at Center needs to be fixed immediately if we have any ambitions of either getting the first round bye or winning a playoff game.

If there was a better option on the roster im sure they would be playing.

anyone you sign off the street will need to learn the bengals playbook and protection schemes and probly wouldnt be ready till the playoffs if that. if they are in playing shape.

We just need bodine to play better.

andre hasnt been that great these last few games he played in....

[BengalChris]

(11-23-2015, 12:06 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: The past two games the coaches have been hand cuffing Dalton, just like they did last year. Its either a five yard out/quick slant or a 60 yard bomb down the sideline where only the receiver has a small chance of getting it.

When the Bengals were down in the second half, that's when they finally unleashed him. He was throwing the ball down the middle of the field/all over the field, hitting different receivers, and looked great.

Not sure what the hell is going on with our offense lately. Lets stop trying to be too cute and let Andy do his thing.

I don't see that the coaches are hand cuffing Dalton at all. He's been off target, as he usually is when there's pressure in his face. Not saying there's something wrong with Dalton, more that the protection is breaking down too early. Four sacks and a fumble to boot, plus a lot of hurries, tend to disrupt a QB. 22 of 39 isn't all that glamorous.

Teams are going to continue to do this to the Bengals until they adjust.

The defense needs to get healthy though. Adam Jones + Burfict = a stingy defense.