What would it take for you to say that Biden/Trump won the debate?

[*PhilHos*]

Tomorrow brings us the first of 3 planned presidential debates between Biden and Trump.

Most of us in here are pretty much decided on who we're going to vote for, correct? And for most, if not all, of us it would take something no one could conceive of to get us to for the other guy, correct?

With that in mind, I got to thinking, since we know who we're voting for and we're all pretty biased, for those of you voting and biased in favor of Biden, what would it take to say that Trump won the debate (and be honest; don't just say "nothing" or some impossible standard)?

And for those of you voting and biased in favor of Trump, what would it take to say that Biden won the debate (and, again, be honest)?

[Benton]

Honestly, nothing either says is going to sway me. Truth is in actions and they've both had opportunities to be effective and fix problems. Neither has really done enough that I support to warrant my vote.

[BigPapaKain]

Trump would have to actually state facts and debate in a fashion befitting his station.

Biden will just have to show up, string a few words together without meandering off on a tangent, and not get baited by Trump's inevitable insults and lies.

In the end it won't matter - I know who I'm voting for.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-28-2020, 06:12 PM)Benton Wrote: Honestly, nothing either says is going to sway me. Truth is in actions and they've both had opportunities to be effective and fix problems. Neither has really done enough that I support to warrant my vote.

I get that. I'm not asking if the debates will change your mind. I'm just wondering what it would take for fred or Dino to say Trump won the debate or for Brad or Mickeypoo to say that Biden won the debate.

[BigPapaKain]

(09-28-2020, 06:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I get that. I'm not asking if the debates will change your mind. I'm just wondering what it would take for fred or Dino to say Trump won the debate or for Brad or Mickeypoo to say that Biden won the debate.

A miracle in any of those cases.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-28-2020, 06:32 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: A miracle in any of those cases.

I figure the response would most likely be 'nothing' or something so outrageous as to be unbelievable by fiction standards. Let's face it, those voting for Biden will most likely say Biden won and those voting for Trump will most likely say Trump won. That said, I'm genuinely curious as to what it would take to claim the "other side" won. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

As long as Biden shows up the media will declare him the clear winner. The headlines have already been written.

[*bfine32*]

Biden to take Trump out behind the gym

[BigPapaKain]

(09-28-2020, 06:35 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I figure the response would most likely be 'nothing' or something so outrageous as to be unbelievable by fiction standards. Let's face it, those voting for Biden will most likely say Biden won and those voting for Trump will most likely say Trump won. That said, I'm genuinely curious as to what it would take to claim the "other side" won. 

I provided as honest an answer as I could. To be fair, I won't watch the debates or anything that doesn't show up on my morning news, so who wins or loses is irrelevant to me. This election is too divisive for anyone to admit defeat.

[*bfine32*]

(09-28-2020, 06:44 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I provided as honest an answer as I could. To be fair, I won't watch the debates or anything that doesn't show up on my morning news, so who wins or loses is irrelevant to me. This election is too divisive for anyone to admit defeat.

I've already got my popcorn ready. 

[*PhilHos*]

(09-28-2020, 06:44 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I provided as honest an answer as I could. To be fair, I won't watch the debates or anything that doesn't show up on my morning news, so who wins or loses is irrelevant to me. This election is too divisive for anyone to admit defeat.

I appreciate your honesty. I know the debates aren't going to change ANYone's minds. Just wanted to get people's thoughts on what the other side could do to get them to admit to winning.

[*Nately120*]

(09-28-2020, 06:38 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: As long as Biden shows up the media will declare him the clear winner.  The headlines have already been written.

Even liberal rags like the Washington post gave Trump credit for debate wins in 2016, so if he legitimately gets zero this time it may actually be due to something other than media bias.

With that being said, 4 years ago he was saying that he won the debates and that he wouldn't accept the results of the election so I would agree the headlines already have been written. 


As for me, until further notice I'm still a dumbass who keeps voting 3rd party in hopes that we can manage to get 3 parties on the ticket and in debates someday and break up the stagnant security of the two party system. If Biden completely aces the debates and Trump flops or just focuses on absurd stuff/whining/insults then there is a slim chance I join the rest of the "hold your nose and vote for Biden just this one" people. That mostly comes from me having much less pride in voting for this libertarian ticket than in 2012 and 2016.

[NATI BENGALS]

If Biden fails the drug test I just can’t do it. Say no to debate PEDs Joe.

[NATI BENGALS]

If Trump gets through without telling a lie I will give him the w.

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 06:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I get that. I'm not asking if the debates will change your mind. I'm just wondering what it would take for fred or Dino to say Trump won the debate or for Brad or Mickeypoo to say that Biden won the debate.

What about Philos?

[fredtoast]

(09-28-2020, 06:38 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: As long as Biden shows up the media will declare him the clear winner.  The headlines have already been written.

So the number one news netwrok in the world is not part of the media?

These type of comments crack me up.  There is no clearer proof of brainwashing.

[GMDino]

(09-28-2020, 06:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I get that. I'm not asking if the debates will change your mind. I'm just wondering what it would take for fred or Dino to say Trump won the debate or for Brad or Mickeypoo to say that Biden won the debate.

Could have just sent a PM then.

[Dill]

(09-28-2020, 06:02 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Tomorrow brings us the first of 3 planned presidential debates between Biden and Trump.

Most of us in here are pretty much decided on who we're going to vote for, correct? And for most, if not all, of us it would take something no one could conceive of to get us to for the other guy, correct?

With that in mind, I got to thinking, since we know who we're voting for and we're all pretty biased, for those of you voting and biased in favor of Biden, what would it take to say that Trump won the debate (and be honest; don't just say "nothing" or some impossible standard)?

And for those of you voting and biased in favor of Trump, what would it take to say that Biden won the debate (and, again, be honest)?

A couple things. First Trump has to 

1. Show that he has a more detailed knowledge of the issues under contention, especially their history as policy. And to

2. Credibly answer charges/objections regarding his actions as president--e.g.--mismanagement of the pandemic response, disruption of the post office, obstruction of justice --with logic and credible counter-factuals ("if I had not done this, then . . .").  I don't mean he would have to convince me that his actions were correct, only that they were good faith efforts to act rationally, to respect data and expert counsel, and to put the national interest above his own.

3. No ad hominem.

Doing 1-2 would require sustained, step by step presentations/answers, remaining on message--NOT meandering from topic to topic via free association, and not vaguely claiming "my health care plan will cover that, and cover it better" promising it will be ready in two weeks rather than explaining how it would actually work, its interface with existing insurance and Medicare. "It will be great--the greatest" won't do. 

That alone might not create a "win" though. Biden would have to do his part:

1. reveal that he has less detailed knowledge of issues, and how government works, than Trump.

2. be unable to competently answer charges/objections regarding his actions as vice-president and candidate--e.g., his role in the '94 crime bill or his supposed firing of a Ukrainian AG to protect his son.  "Incompetency" here includes not only not knowing enough about an issue, but also addressing/deflecting questions actually asked, and being unable to go beyond sound bites.  Laughing and shaking his head at a Trump misstatement or lie will not cut it.

3. pivot to ad hominem when in trouble.

For either candidate, "whattaboutism"* will be a serious negative. By this term I mean an effort to deflect responsibility or change the subject; any reference to past precedents/policies/persons is not whattaboutism if it speaks to the issue at hand (e.g., the way legal precedents illuminate a case in dock). 

"Misstatements" will also subtract points from either candidate, but lies more so.

I (like most Democrats) agreed that Obama lost his first debate with Romney because he did not meet the above standards. I also thought that Biden lost his debate with Paul Ryan, in part for "laughing" and shaking his head at points made rather than actually answering them.

*I know some are still not clear on what "whattaboutism" is.  If I am on trial for hijacking a car, and my defense is "whattabout Philhos? He hijacked a car too and nobody arrested him!" That is whattaboutism. If a prosecutor refers to another carjacker, whose case serves as a precedent for my sentence recommendation, that is not whattaboutism.  If Trump accuses Biden of corruption in Ukraine, and Biden says "Whattabout YOUR corruption in Florida" that is whattaboutism. If Biden explains why what he did in Ukraine was not corruption--i.e., if he answers the charge--then it's not whattaboutism, even if thereafter he pivots to Trump corruption.

[Benton]

(09-28-2020, 06:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I get that. I'm not asking if the debates will change your mind. I'm just wondering what it would take for fred or Dino to say Trump won the debate or for Brad or Mickeypoo to say that Biden won the debate.

In that spirit, I think Biden will have to look cognitive and not fall for getting baited. Making statements about beating people up or the similar isn't going to do him any favors.

On the other hand, trump will have to be honest. Own failures instead of passing them on, and he'll take away a lot of the ammo of his detractors. Instead of saying he did great on pandemic response, for example, just say 'yeah, we learned a lot.'

[*michaelsean*]

I think it will look like an Eagles-Bengals game and most people just wanting it over.