Who could have imagined?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 03:59 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Distrust in police. A failing economy. No in person school. A pandemic .

Sounds like a perfect storm that’s causing this rise in mostly adolescent carjackings.

You certainly left some things out but I'd largely agree with you if we had evidence that these were school aged adolescents.  As we don't we can only speculate, but I stated the above were cetainly factors in my second post.

(12-02-2020, 04:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Everybody just going to gloss over this math error?

I can't point this out or I'd be cyberbullying him.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 04:13 PM)BrownAssClown Wrote: I was being obtuse.

Clearly.

Quote:Since it's your favorite word to throw around. I bet that word wasn't even in your vocabulary before you watched "The Shawshank Redemption" or am I being to obtuse.

Yes, I've only learned things from movies and TV.

Quote:BTW if law enforcement are not doing their job in Minneapolis, they need to be replaced. If a government official or officials are hindering law enforcement from doing their job, they need to be replaced.

I don't think you're grasping what's actually being discussed.  Neither of these are likely the case.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 04:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Let me make sure I have this straight.

You don't, per the norm.

Quote:-Anecdotal evidence from law enforcement is valid proof but anecdotal evidence from anyone criticizing law enforcement is meaningless.

Not what was said.  Please don't bother responding to this either, I'm not going to play your word twisting tap dance game.

Quote:-No proof that the courts or prosecutors in Minneapolis are going easy on criminals.

Nope, again, not what was said.

Quote:-Efficient police work does nothing to reduce crime.

Not entirely true, but an actually good point on your part.  It is certainly true that proactive policing is the hardest type of policing to accomplish.

Quote:-And finally, we are supposed to ignore prior police willful inaction so well recognized that it earned the name "Blue Flu".

No, don't ignore it.  Simply point out how it's relevant in this instance.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 04:47 PM)Benton Wrote: It falls into a chicken/egg situation for me.

At some point, crime goes up. Also at some point, we start going from cops being parts of communities as peace keepers to cops being trained to be shock troops.

Personally, I don't think the answer is doubling down on giving young cops an attitude that the world is against them. I interviewed a state police post commander once for a retirement story. I asked him what was the biggest change he saw during his run. He said it was the troopers. Paraphrasing as I wrote the story 15ish years ago but basically he said: 'When I hired on, you'd ride with a guy and ask him what he used to do. It was always a mechanic or selling cars or a farm hand. Now it's all guys out of the military.'

I asked him if that was better or worse, he just shrugged.

First off, I don't think "shock troops" is a good word to use, or accurate.  However, I appreciate the rest of this post.  It would be interesting to see a study of what fields people came from prior to becoming LEO's.  Myself, I worked at a group home for two years and managed a sporting goods retail shop prior to that.  

[Benton]

(12-02-2020, 06:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: First off, I don't think "shock troops" is a good word to use, or accurate.  However, I appreciate the rest of this post.  It would be interesting to see a study of what fields people came from prior to becoming LEO's.  Myself, I worked at a group home for two years and managed a sporting goods retail shop prior to that.  

I've looked before, but haven't a lot. I'm in a small town, but we've got around 20 deputies. I only know of two that weren't in the military (one being my brother, the other the son of a retired deputy). All the troopers I know we're former military, but that's probably less than 2 percent of troopers statewide.

[BmorePat87]

(12-02-2020, 06:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You certainly left some things out but I'd largely agree with you if we had evidence that these were school aged adolescents.  As we don't we can only speculate, but I stated the above were cetainly factors in my second post.


I can't point this out or I'd be cyberbullying him.

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/crime/prosecutor-75-of-solved-minneapolis-carjackings-committed-by-juveniles/89-0b9db596-c498-4263-bba3-81e4a52905a8

For a few months their local media has been reporting that these rash of carjackings were being committed by adolescents

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 07:14 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://www.kare11.com/article/news/crime/prosecutor-75-of-solved-minneapolis-carjackings-committed-by-juveniles/89-0b9db596-c498-4263-bba3-81e4a52905a8

For a few months their local media has been reporting that these rash of carjackings were being committed by adolescents

Thank you for that information, very interesting.  I still think you're ignoring the effect of the anti-law enforcement zeitgeist, which especially influences adolescents, as they are made aware that the punishments for their crimes are significantly less severe than for adults. It wouldn't shock me at all that local gangs are using them to commit these crimes for that exact reason.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2020, 04:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: -Anecdotal evidence from law enforcement is valid proof but anecdotal evidence from anyone criticizing law enforcement is meaningless.

(12-02-2020, 06:36 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not what was said.  Please don't bother responding to this either, I'm not going to play your word twisting tap dance game.

Actually that was exactly what was said.  A major portion of your original post was nothing but anecdotal evidence from your own experince or that of your friends in law enforcement/probation.  But when someone posted a quote from the article you referenced you dismissed it as "unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence"

(12-02-2020, 04:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: -No proof that the courts or prosecutors in Minneapolis are going easy on criminals.

(12-02-2020, 06:36 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Nope, again, not what was said.

Again that is exactly what you said.  In post #1 you said crime was being "excused".  In post#3 you used the term "soft on crime".  Yet you don't post any evidence that anything like that is happening in Minneapolis.

(12-02-2020, 04:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: -Efficient police work does nothing to reduce crime.

(12-02-2020, 06:36 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not entirely true, but an actually good point on your part.  It is certainly true that proactive policing is the hardest type of policing to accomplish.

So I say something that is not true, but you still feel it is a good point?

The fact is that the way the police do their job has a lot to do with the crime rate.  If they don't do their job then the crime rate goes up.

(12-02-2020, 04:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: -And finally, we are supposed to ignore prior police willful inaction so well recognized that it earned the name "Blue Flu".

(12-02-2020, 06:36 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, don't ignore it.  Simply point out how it's relevant in this instance.

It is pretty clear how it is relevant.  We have seen it happen before in Baltimore and other places.  If anyone dares to criticize the police then they get all pissy and refuse to do their job.  And as a result the crime rate goes up.  They punish the public for daring to even suggest the police have done something wrong or need to change the way they do things.  

[fredtoast]

Another thing that has already been touched on is distrust of the police.

Police need information from citizens in order to solve most crimes. With the unfortunate series of events this year involving Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, and George Floyd all of which led to disciplinary action against police/prosecutors the public lost a lot of trust in law enforcement. So citizens are less likely to call on or communicate with them. This makes it harder for the police to do their job.

The fact that so many police/prosecutors still insist that there is nothing they need to fix just makes it worse. Some of them even still try to deny that racial profiling and/or the "Blue Wall" ever existed. No one can trust them until they admit that there are problems they need to address.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 08:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually that was exactly what was said.  A major portion of your original post was nothing but anecdotal evidence from your own experince or that of your friends in law enforcement/probation.  But when someone posted a quote from the article you referenced you dismissed it as "unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence"

No I didn't, you're being dishonest.  Quote the actual posts if you want to prove it.  Which you did not do as you are being dishonest.

Quote:Again that is exactly what you said.  In post #1 you said crime was being "excused".  In post#3 you used the term "soft on crime".  Yet you don't post any evidence that anything like that is happening in Minneapolis.

As usual you are partially quoting to try and make what you'd label a point.  You're intentionally disingenuous, as usual.

Quote:So I say something that is not true, but you still feel it is a good point?

As usual you are partially quoting to try and make what you'd label a point.  You're intentionally disingenuous, as usual.

Quote:The fact is that the way the police do their job has a lot to do with the crime rate.  If they don't do their job then the crime rate goes up.

Sure, but this is different than proactive policing.  Evidence that police are not doing their job?  Oh wait, you have none.

Quote:It is pretty clear how it is relevant.  We have seen it happen before in Baltimore and other places.  If anyone dares to criticize the police then they get all pissy and refuse to do their job.

 
Someone sure sounds like they don't like law enforcement.  

Quote:And as a result the crime rate goes up.  They punish the public for daring to even suggest the police have done something wrong or need to change the way they do things.  

As usual you oversimplify a complicated issue.  If you and your buddy didn't drop bait in this forum you'd have half your post count.  Try again with some actual substance, you know, like a skyrocketing crime rate.  Until then spare us all your usual claptrap.

[BmorePat87]

(12-02-2020, 07:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Thank you for that information, very interesting.  I still think you're ignoring the effect of the anti-law enforcement zeitgeist, which especially influences adolescents, as they are made aware that the punishments for their crimes are significantly less severe than for adults. It wouldn't shock me at all that local gangs are using them to commit these crimes for that exact reason.

I mentioned it in my post as “distrust of police”


Though I think that is influenced more by the fact that local officers murdered a man than the rhetoric from activists after that murder occurred

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2020, 08:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No I didn't, you're being dishonest.  Quote the actual posts if you want to prove it.  Which you did not do as you are being dishonest.

I am not being dishonest.  Here are examples of you relying on anecdotal evidence to support your claim

(12-02-2020, 01:29 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   Having done my job for 20+ years I can tell you a few things with certainty.

(12-02-2020, 01:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   This is bolstered, anecdotally of course, by my own experiences and those of friends.  I have been told numerous times that "you guys can't do shit to us now". 

And here is you dismissing criticism of the police because it is anecdotal

(12-02-2020, 02:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This couple is stating their perception.  Perhaps the police aren't there as quickly as they like because of the increase in calls?  IN any event, this statement is anecdotal.

Where do we see the police not doing their job?  Except in your totally unsupported supposition that is.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 09:01 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I mentioned it in my post as “distrust of police”


Though I think that is influenced more by the fact that local officers murdered a man than the rhetoric from activists after that murder occurred

An officer murdered a man, not officers.  Unless you're in to group responsibility, which I would hope you are not.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2020, 08:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As usual you are partially quoting to try and make what you'd label a point.  You're intentionally disingenuous, as usual.

Nothing disingenuous about my posts.  Those are your exact words.  There is nothing in the context of your posts that changes their meaning.

If I am wrong then post some evidence of police/prosecutors in Minneapolis excusing or being soft on carjackers.

At some point you will have to post something other than personal attacks on me to prove your point.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2020, 09:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: An officer murdered a man, not officers.  Unless you're in to group responsibility, which I would hope you are not.

I thought it was the job of police to stop a murder that happens in front of their eyes.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2020, 08:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sure, but this is different than proactive policing.  Evidence that police are not doing their job?  Oh wait, you have none.

Yes I do.

The rise in crime rate is evidence.

The comments by citizens that the police are not on the streets doing their job is evidence.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 09:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not being dishonest.  Here are examples of you relying on anecdotal evidence to support your claim





And here is you dismissing criticism of the police because it is anecdotal

I didn't rely on anecdotal evidence, I bolstered my position with self proclaimed anecdotal evidence.  Not the same thing, but you're being intentionally dishonest, as usual.  Also as usual you don't include the whole post in which I explain that GM's anecdotal evidence clearly has multiple interpretations, which makes your posts less than useless.  You are an being intentionally dishonest.  I'd hesitate to say as usual if it wasn't as usual.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2020, 08:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Someone sure sounds like they don't like law enforcement.  

I don't like when police refuse to do their job.

Why should I?

Does that fact that you don't like violent protestors mean that your criticism of them is not valid?

Again, you need something other than personal comment about me to prove your point.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-02-2020, 09:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I thought it was the job of police to stop a murder that happens in front of their eyes.

(12-02-2020, 09:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes I do.

The rise in crime rate is evidence.

The comments by citizens that the police are not on the streets doing their job is evidence.

Peak Fred crap posting.  Enjoy it folkx.  

[BrownAssClown]

Well let's go over some of the things that happen this year. Black jogger in Georgia gets rundown and shot to death by some good 'ol boys. White cop kneels on black man's neck for 8 plus minutes and black man dies. People of all races protest mostly peacefully, yet in some cities rioters and looters take to the streets. Trump declares himself the law and order president and things go from bad to worse, all the while a virus is sweeping the world and some states governor's take action by doing partial shutdowns to try to slow the spread of the virus. Trump worried about the stock market and his re-election chances takes to Twitter with tweets like "Liberate Michigan!" So you have a bunch of morons storm federal buildings in Michigan unmasked and then you have a group plotting to kidnap and kill the governor of Michigan(I guess DeWine here in Ohio is only facing impeachment instead of death by liberators. Perks of being a Republican I guess). I could go on and on, but if your looking for why there's a breakdown of law in order in this country, look no further than the commander and chief who doesn't have a goddamn clue on how to lead and loves to stir the pot and make it all about himself and his own self interest. January 20th can't get here fast enough; I'm not expecting Biden to be great, but at least Trump will be gone or at least out of power. Problem is Mr. Law and Order can cause a hell of a lot of damage until then and maybe after with all his rhetoric.