Who will be Inaugurated to be U. S. President on January 20, 2025 ? - POLL

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-12-2024, 02:17 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, sure, I understand why one would see it that way. He said quite some rather divisive stuff over the last years as well. Overall though, I think he is one of the more moderate and affable people the Dems could have run. It's one thing I really believe, that if it were up to Joe he would try to work with congress, find compromises, be an old school president looking for broad support. He just can not do that if all republican congressmembers have to check back with Trump and do as he pleases.

I know we will not agree on this, but there was an immigration compromise that would at least have made things better, even if just slightly, and it was republicans that slapped the plan away. Therefore I can not quite solely blame Biden for everything. He tried to find some solution at least. That executive orders would be an alternative, well maybe, I honestly know too little about it. Seems to me though that not that long ago, executive orders were seen as an awful, quasi-dictatorial move and it were mainly republicans who said so after Obama resorted to this method, facing a deliberatly uncooperative Congress. At times I have a hard time understanding what republicans actually expect.

The plan you speak of, is close to the same as the EO rolled out recently.   My point is, he could have done that along time ago, but didn't and tried to play it off politically.

[hollodero]

(06-12-2024, 03:05 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: The plan you speak of, is close to the same as the EO rolled out recently.   My point is, he could have done that along time ago, but didn't and tried to play it off politically.

And I certainly can't fault you for seeing it that way. I did not try to claim Biden did a great job there, he most certainly did not and just recently realized that this might hurt his re-election chances. No praise for him from me.

[Dill]

(06-12-2024, 01:52 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Do you think it's because the Leftist Media constantly takes what Trump says out of context? and molds it into what they want everyone to believe he said? Yes i know Trump does say some stupid things but even so, they Eff it up and apparently he ends up saying things he didn't say. Like... All Immigrants are rapists, murderers etc.

Once that starts, it's not going to end and simple things like this are exactly why i have a hard time trusting leftist biased media, IDC how many Pulitzers they have won. Once you start slinging these things around, you lose your cred. Just like with Fox, I don't trust them either. 

You are trusting someone, OtherMike, or you wouldn't be making blanket references to "leftist biased media." 

Let's start with some "stupid things" the "leftist media" is "molding"--the Hollywood Access tape, the "Snake" poem, mimicking disabled people, recorded evidence of Trump abusing his office to strongarm a foreign leader into opening a bogus investigation into Trump's political opponent. Also video, documentary, and testimonial evidence that Trump used his office to punish opponents, shut down investigations close to him, and to pardon his friends. 

Plus video evidence of Trump claiming the election was rigged and documentary evidence and testimony that half his staff told him there was no evidence of rigging. Documentary and testimonial evidence that the other half of his staff were, with his approval, engaged in a plot to forge lists of electors from seven states, which Trump abetted by calling a mob to the Capitol on 1/6 and sending them to Congress to "take their country back" (remembering to add, belatedly, "peacefully"). The coup attempt followed by continued claims the Dems rigged the election and Biden has weaponized the DOJ. Add the video of Trump claiming that the Presidential Records Act allows him to mentally declassify the documents he illegally withheld from the national archives. Etc. etc. etc. 

How much of the above is "molding" and how much genuinely malicious, degrading and unstable behavior for which Trump alone is responsible? Even if he only said "some" Mexicans are rapists, how does that mitigate the xenophobia front and center of his campaign speeches? The "monsters" and "poison" in the blood of our country, the promises of revenge and retribution?

What sort of person sees/hears all that and then says "Gosh, someone claimed he said ALL Mexicans are rapists when he didn't mean all, and even said 'some' were 'good people'. How can I trust that the 'leftist media' is not distorting what I hear in his unedited campaign speeches and softball interviews from Fox and Friends?" 

No president in history has ever been this publicly angry and off his rocker, and yet my friends on the right blame the media for reporting one outrageous act after another, inverting cause and effect and separating Trump from accountability.  DOXXING A JUDGE'S DAUGHTER--no biased leftist is distorting that; Trump DID IT PROUDLY.  The guy who attempted to steal an election and now  blows through gag order after gag order could become the chief exec in charge of law and order with an enemies list because liberal media presentations are a little biased sometimes???

In short, no. I don't think the "leftist media" is responsible for Trump voters voting for Trump. It is more likely that such voters are using the "fake news" liberal media to justify rejecting the evidence of their own eyes. Something is definitely wrong, and now is not the time to shoot the messenger.

Seems to me the REAL "molding" comes from a RWM which amplifies Trump's lies about witch hunts and disputes whether he meant what he said when he called Zelensky or the GA secretary of state or told Mike Pence not to certify the election. And then reports as if all the investigations into Trump are so obviously a sham there is no need to examine the facts and the law very closely. Just repeat Trump endlessly--"witch hunt," "banana republic," "3rd world country." Except the revenge traitor death penalty talk.

[NATI BENGALS]

Went with Biden.

Would love for it to not be any of the three current options. But I don’t think I’m going to get my way.

So when it comes down to it. I don’t think enough people are going to be willing to risk voting for four years of chaos and corruption. His campaign team is loaded with convicted criminals, his mass deportation operation would cause pure panic, and women’s rights would continue to get rolled back. I image that should turn off quite a few voters.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-12-2024, 09:55 PM)Dill Wrote: You are trusting someone, OtherMike, or you wouldn't be making blanket references to "leftist biased media." 

Let's start with some "stupid things" the "leftist media" is "molding"--the Hollywood Access tape, the "Snake" poem, mimicking disabled people, recorded evidence of Trump abusing his office to strongarm a foreign leader into opening a bogus investigation into Trump's political opponent. Also video, documentary, and testimonial evidence that Trump used his office to punish opponents, shut down investigations close to him, and to pardon his friends. 

Plus video evidence of Trump claiming the election was rigged and documentary evidence and testimony that half his staff told him there was no evidence of rigging. Documentary and testimonial evidence that the other half of his staff were, with his approval, engaged in a plot to forge lists of electors from seven states, which Trump abetted by calling a mob to the Capitol on 1/6 and sending them to Congress to "take their country back" (remembering to add, belatedly, "peacefully"). The coup attempt followed by continued claims the Dems rigged the election and Biden has weaponized the DOJ. Add the video of Trump claiming that the Presidential Records Act allows him to mentally declassify the documents he illegally withheld from the national archives. Etc. etc. etc. 

How much of the above is "molding" and how much genuinely malicious, degrading and unstable behavior for which Trump alone is responsible? Even if he only said "some" Mexicans are rapists, how does that mitigate the xenophobia front and center of his campaign speeches? The "monsters" and "poison" in the blood of our country, the promises of revenge and retribution?

What sort of person sees/hears all that and then says "Gosh, someone claimed he said ALL Mexicans are rapists when he didn't mean all, and even said 'some' were 'good people'. How can I trust that the 'leftist media' is not distorting what I hear in his unedited campaign speeches and softball interviews from Fox and Friends?" 

No president in history has ever been this publicly angry and off his rocker, and yet my friends on the right blame the media for reporting one outrageous act after another, inverting cause and effect and separating Trump from accountability.  DOXXING A JUDGE'S DAUGHTER--no biased leftist is distorting that; Trump DID IT PROUDLY.  The guy who attempted to steal an election and now  blows through gag order after gag order could become the chief exec in charge of law and order with an enemies list because liberal media presentations are a little biased sometimes???

In short, no. I don't think the "leftist media" is responsible for Trump voters voting for Trump. It is more likely that such voters are using the "fake news" liberal media to justify rejecting the evidence of their own eyes. Something is definitely wrong, and now is not the time to shoot the messenger.

Seems to me the REAL "molding" comes from a RWM which amplifies Trump's lies about witch hunts and disputes whether he meant what he said when he called Zelensky or the GA secretary of state or told Mike Pence not to certify the election. And then reports as if all the investigations into Trump are so obviously a sham there is no need to examine the facts and the law very closely. Just repeat Trump endlessly--"witch hunt," "banana republic," "3rd world country." Except the revenge traitor death penalty talk.

Ah yes, Mr Inequality steps up to the plate.

First off, The comment about some/all was very early in his first campaign run for POTUS. 
You must have missed the part where i said, once you start mis-leading, they don't stop.

Out of context

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-rally-vegas/

At a June 2024 rally in Las Vegas, former U.S. President Donald Trump said, "I don't care about you, I just want your vote. I don't care."

FAKE
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-threatened-probation-officer/
Former U.S. President Donald Trump thrashed and threatened his New York probation officer during his presentencing virtual call on June 10, 2024.




I just grabbed the first two i saw. but those are both recent and perfect examples.


The rise of left-wing, anti-Trump fake news

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-39592010

[Dill]

(06-13-2024, 03:48 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Ah yes, Mr Inequality steps up to the plate.
First off, The comment about some/all was very early in his first campaign run for POTUS. 
You must have missed the part where i said, once you start mis-leading, they don't stop.
Out of context
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-rally-vegas/
At a June 2024 rally in Las Vegas, former U.S. President Donald Trump said, "I don't care about you, I just want your vote. I don't care."
FAKE
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-threatened-probation-officer/
Former U.S. President Donald Trump thrashed and threatened his New York probation officer during his presentencing virtual call on June 10, 2024.
I just grabbed the first two i saw. but those are both recent and perfect examples.
The rise of left-wing, anti-Trump fake news
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-39592010

"Mr. Inequality"???

I did not dispute that sometimes Trump statements may be taken out of context.

I presented a mass of material that everyone agrees he said/did which has been reported accurately. 

And I also referenced the RWM as largely responsible for re-framing ("molding") Trump actions to the point
where millions believe that the last election was stolen and Trump broke no laws when he stole classified
documents and refused to return them. Trump supporters, though, were already long at a point where
they did their own "molding" of news, in part by simply not following the more accurate reporting of the MSM.

Your response is still to blame the messenger, not Trump. 

By the way, your last link uses the term "fake news" in the pre-trump sense of non-news sites presenting what looks
like real news. It's not a reference to reputable MSM news sources. 

Real question: why are you looking up bits and pieces to distorted news to justify voting for a guy who attempted a 
coup and doxxed a judges daughter to threaten a judge, and whose own previous advisors and cabinet appoints 
consider unfit for office?  Why? 

[Bengalfan4life27c]

The main issue for me is Trump refuses to say a negative thing about the fascist dictator Putin and his reelection as president could lead to Putin starting world war 3 without the US help Ukraine and the rest europe could possibly be ******. In the big picture having an organzation like NATO makes the US stronger If we dont support our allies nobody will support us.

[depthchart]

(06-14-2024, 04:34 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: The main issue for me is Trump refuses to say a negative thing about the fascist dictator Putin and his reelection as president could lead to Putin starting world war 3 without the US help Ukraine and the rest europe could possibly be ******. In the big picture having an organzation like NATO makes the US stronger If we dont support our allies nobody will support us.

Not being argumentative here but Putin seemed to be less aggressive regarding Ukraine when Trump was in Office. 

Putin invaded the Crimean Peninsula part of Ukraine when Obama was President and the major invasion on Ukraine occurred when Biden was President.

I would welcome any input on this from other Posters as they may have some reasons that I have not considered as to why this is.

[*Nately120*]

(06-14-2024, 07:45 PM)depthchart Wrote: Not being argumentative here but Putin seemed to be less aggressive regarding Ukraine when Trump was in Office. 

Putin invaded the Crimean Peninsula part of Ukraine when Obama was President and the major invasion on Ukraine occurred when Biden was President.

I would welcome any input on this from other Posters as they may have some reasons that I have not considered as to why this is.

I think it's possible Putin planned on invading Ukraine and assumed Trump would win or otherwise stay in power like he did.  When Biden won Putin decided to stick with the plan and it ended up being a lot harder than it would have been had Trump and the maga GOP controlled the aid dispersement. 

The maga wing wants to defund the defense against Putin.  I don't see why he'd fear Trump being in power.

Putin didn't attack on Trump's watch the same way the Taliban didn't strike us soil when Democrats were in office.  It's true, but probably doesn't tell the whole story.  

[NATI BENGALS]

(06-14-2024, 07:45 PM)depthchart Wrote: Not being argumentative here but Putin seemed to be less aggressive regarding Ukraine when Trump was in Office. 

Putin invaded the Crimean Peninsula part of Ukraine when Obama was President and the major invasion on Ukraine occurred when Biden was President.

I would welcome any input on this from other Posters as they may have some reasons that I have not considered as to why this is.

They were getting everything they wanted. Why ruin a good thing?

Russians were in the Oval Office getting secrets from the POTUS.
The POTUS was on the world stage and said he believe Putin over US intelligence.
The POTUS was pushing to get Russia back in the G7.
The POTUS’ top lawyer was working with Russian assets pushing Russian disinformation in Ukraine.

[depthchart]

(06-14-2024, 09:59 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: They were getting everything they wanted. Why ruin a good thing?

Russians were in the Oval Office getting secrets from the POTUS.
The POTUS was on the world stage and said he believe Putin over US intelligence.
The POTUS was pushing to get Russia back in the G7.
The POTUS’ top lawyer was working with Russian assets pushing Russian disinformation in Ukraine.

Even if all being said about Trump being someone that Putin would not fear is true. (not saying it is or isn't)

There becomes a separate issue that has to be looked at without Trump's name being brought up.

Putin actually invaded the Crimean Peninsula part of Ukraine in 2014 with Obama as President.

The major invasion on Ukraine occurred in 2022 when Biden was President.

Why would Obama & Biden not be able to deter Putin from making moves like these ?

*Many Voters are not deeply invested in defending one side over the other but rather try to analyze details like these

  in a practical manner.

[NATI BENGALS]

(06-15-2024, 12:03 AM)depthchart Wrote: Even if all being said about Trump being someone that Putin would not fear is true. (not saying it is or isn't)

There becomes a separate issue that has to be looked at without Trump's name being brought up.

Putin actually invaded the Crimean Peninsula part of Ukraine in 2014 with Obama as President.

The major invasion on Ukraine occurred in 2022 when Biden was President.

Why would Obama & Biden not be able to deter Putin from making moves like these ?

*Many Voters are not deeply invested in defending one side over the other but rather try to analyze details like these

  in a practical manner.

You can’t just ignore a major part of the equation. Putin isn’t an idiot. They worked to get Trump elected. They were looking for an American ally and/or a puppet. And they found one.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/senate-panel-finds-russia-interfered-in-the-2016-us-election
“The nearly 1,000-page report, the fifth and final one from the Republican-led Senate intelligence committee on the Russia investigation, details how Russia launched an aggressive effort to interfere in the election on Trump's behalf. “

And in return they were getting the type of results they wanted.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/04/bolton-says-trump-might-have-pulled-us-out-nato-if-he-had-been-reelected/
“Bolton wrote that he had to convince Trump not to quit NATO in the middle of a 2018 summit.”

Most of our elected officials know or at least used to know that Russia isn’t our friend.

The RNC changed their platform as Trump came in control of the party.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/mueller-asked-trump-2016-rnc-platform-change-ukraine/story?id=59476035

His right hand man was busy doing scumbag shit working with Russian interests in Ukraine. He got busted and ended up getting pardoned by you know who.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-pardons-former-campaign-chairman-paul-manafort

Right now we know Russia interferes in our elections and conducts cyber warfare on us. We know Russia is allied with Iran, North Korea, and China in their war on our democratic ally in Europe right now. Trump praising the leadership and wanting to cozy up to that is as un-American as it gets.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-14-2024, 07:45 PM)depthchart Wrote: Not being argumentative here but Putin seemed to be less aggressive regarding Ukraine when Trump was in Office. 

Putin invaded the Crimean Peninsula part of Ukraine when Obama was President and the major invasion on Ukraine occurred when Biden was President.

I would welcome any input on this from other Posters as they may have some reasons that I have not considered as to why this is.

Putin really hates Dems.
I'm not going to say with 100% accuracy, but I think the Dems under Obama (Hills included) were interfering with his elections as well. 

Why he behaved better with DJT in office? I have no idea. Maybe he felt Trump was more of a wild card than the Just Do Somethings Obama and Biden.

But Trump was right about lack of NATO spending. 

Anyways maybe it stems from the R's being war machines. Maybe Trump cas ask Putin why when he gets a chance while he's talking to his good buddy and getting advice on how to convert us to an Authoritarian state. 

[Dill]

(06-15-2024, 05:32 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Putin really hates Dems.
I'm not going to say with 100% accuracy, but I think the Dems under Obama (Hills included) were interfering with his elections as well. 

Why he behaved better with DJT in office? I have no idea. Maybe he felt Trump was more of a wild card than the Just Do Somethings Obama and Biden.

But Trump was right about lack of NATO spending. 

Anyways maybe it stems from the R's being war machines. Maybe Trump cas ask Putin why when he gets a chance while he's talking to his good buddy and getting advice on how to convert us to an Authoritarian state. 

It was the assessment of US intel back in 2016 that Putin interfered in the election to help Trump win.
https://www.npr.org/2021/03/16/977958302/intelligence-report-russia-tried-to-help-trump-in-2020-election
https://apnews.com/article/d094918c0421b872eac7dc4b16e613c7

This makes sense, as Putin's goal has been to undermine democracy in Western Europe as well, and to weaken, if not break up,
the NATO alliance, and Trump admires Putin. Now even the possibility of a Trump re-election has set our allies into a tizzy of contingency planning. 
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/dismay-and-disbelief-what-us-allies-are-saying-about-the-chance-of-another-trump-presidency/ar-BB1jpU5O
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2024-02-11/american-allies-worry-the-us-is-growing-less-dependable-whether-trump-or-biden-wins
https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/how-us-allies-can-mitigate-trump-20-2023-05-29/

Putin has this year said he thinks Biden would be better for Russia, as in predictable. That hardly makes sense if Trump would pull the US
out of Ukraine and weaken NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/15/world/europe/putin-biden-trump-us-election.html