You’ve Served Your Time. Now Here’s Your Bill

[GMDino]

Quote:...the economic exploitation of prisoners doesn’t end when they’re released. In 49 states, inmates are charged for the costs of their own incarceration.



The way this works varies. In some states, formerly incarcerated people are sent bills, and in others they are charged fines (sometimes called legal financial obligations, or LFOs). Some states collect the cost of incarcerating someone through windfall statutes, grabbing any inheritances, lottery winnings or proceeds from litigation. 

Quote:In 49 states, inmates are charged for the costs of their own incarceration.

There’s no way to pay these bills ahead of their due dates or work these charges off while in prison, no matter how hard you work. No inmate can earn enough inside to cover the costs of their incarceration; each one will necessarily leave with a bill. 
The state of Florida, which pays inmate workers a maximum of $0.55 per hour, billed former inmate Dee Taylor $55,000 for his three-year sentence. He would have had to work 100,000 hours, or over 11 years nonstop, at a prison wage to pay for his three year incarceration. Even as a free man working at Florida’s minimum wage of $8.25, he would have to work more than 6,666 hours ― more than three regular work years ― and not spend a penny on anything else to pay it back. These debts are impossible for the even hardest-working people to pay off.  


Most people enter prison poor, and half of formerly incarcerated people are unemployed six months after they leave custody. Those who find jobs after prison will earn very little; the median income for people within one year of their release is $10,090 ― only 55 percent had any earnings at all. This makes paying any type of bill a challenge. The bills for one’s prison time compete with active and essential living expenses like housing, food, utilities and transport. Ex-offenders in the United States owe about $50 billion for various criminal justice costs like pretrial detention, court fees and incarceration costs. It’s estimated that as much 60 percent of a formerly incarcerated person’s income goes toward “criminal justice debt,” even for those who have ostensibly paid their debt to society.  


These debts can make it even harder for a returning citizen to rebuild their life after incarceration, because in 46 states, failure to repay them is an offense punishable by yet more incarceration. A Georgia man named Thomas Barrett pleaded guilty to shoplifting a $2 can of beer and was fined $200 and sentenced to probation, supposedly so he could avoid jail. That was a futile hope, since he was eventually incarcerated after he failed to pay over $1,000 in fees attached to that $200 fine. In Rhode Island from 2005 through 2007, failure to pay court debt was the most common reason that individuals were incarcerated, which means that, in a state that routinely spends around $200 million on corrections every year, the most common reason for incarcerating people there was something other than crime. 

In 20 states where probation and parole are privatized and profit-driven, the problem is worse. Additional supervision fees explode the amount of money that a probationer owes, and the likelihood of violation ― and reincarceration ― skyrockets.
In Florida, probationers can be charged a 40 percent collections surcharge on their debts to the state.  



Because these private companies are exempt from freedom of information requests, we don’t know the true value of the for-profit corrections industry. Even a conservative estimate would suggest that they make untold millions while American taxpayers foot the bill for another round of imprisonment. In Georgia alone, private probation is a $40 million-a-year industry. The practice of charging poor defendants for the cost of their punishment ends up punishing people outside of prison repeatedly while benefiting only the supervising companies. When an Alabama circuit court judge called the private probation system a “judicially sanctioned extortion racket” he wasn’t whistling “Dixie.”

More at the link.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-prison-strike-labor-criminal-justice_us_5b9bf1a1e4b013b0977a7d74

[Benton]

Quote:That was a futile hope, since he was eventually incarcerated after he failed to pay over $1,000 in fees attached to that $200 fine. In Rhode Island from 2005 through 2007, failure to pay court debt was the most common reason that individuals were incarcerated, which means that, in a state that routinely spends around $200 million on corrections every year, the most common reason for incarcerating people there was something other than crime. 

I don't have an issue with people having to repay some of their incarceration costs. But fines and court costs irks me. I got my very first speeding ticket about three years ago. The speeding part of the ticket was around $28. The court costs were $143... and I paid the ticket without ever going to court.

Sure, there's some paperwork in the clerks office for filing the paperwork, but $143 when you never actually go to court? That's insane.

[GMDino]

(09-17-2018, 10:20 AM)Benton Wrote: I don't have an issue with people having to repay some of their incarceration costs. But fines and court costs irks me. I got my very first speeding ticket about three years ago. The speeding part of the ticket was around $28. The court costs were $143... and I paid the ticket without ever going to court.

Sure, there's some paperwork in the clerks office for filing the paperwork, but $143 when you never actually go to court? That's insane.

A couple weeks ago I had a conversation with a couple high school kids (our son is in the band) and one (half jokingly) said if we just killed everyone in jail with a life sentence there would be more money for college education for other people.



He's a good kid, and he was (mostly) joking...I think.  lol.  

Short version is that that led to a conversation about the prison system and how once you're in it it's very hard to get out.  Another parent there had some experience with a relative being a prison guard and was explaining how the fines and the fees and the costs all create a system where even if the prisoner gets out and ONLY tries to go straight they have an almost impossible task in front of them.

But there's no profit in people not going back to prison.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-17-2018, 10:20 AM)Benton Wrote: I don't have an issue with people having to repay some of their incarceration costs. But fines and court costs irks me. I got my very first speeding ticket about three years ago. The speeding part of the ticket was around $28. The court costs were $143... and I paid the ticket without ever going to court.

Sure, there's some paperwork in the clerks office for filing the paperwork, but $143 when you never actually go to court? That's insane.

I've never liked court costs as that is your right, and yes the court costs on a speeding ticket you mail in are ridiculous.

[Au165]

(09-17-2018, 10:53 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I've never liked court costs as that is your right, and yes the court costs on a speeding ticket you mail in are ridiculous.

All of it should be done online with no costs other than the ticket if you choose to pay the fine. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-17-2018, 10:25 AM)GMDino Wrote: Short version is that that led to a conversation about the prison system and how once you're in it it's very hard to get out.  Another parent there had some experience with a relative being a prison guard and was explaining how the fines and the fees and the costs all create a system where even if the prisoner gets out and ONLY tries to go straight they have an almost impossible task in front of them.

Of course in many states actually getting sentenced to prison happens after numerous crimes and convictions or a very serious first conviction.  It's not uncommon at all for crimes as serious as robbery to be pled down to grand theft person with the defendant getting formal probation.  I can't speak for the rest of the nation, but if you go to prison in CA then you really deserved it.  As for "going straight" after your release, no it's not easy.  It's never easy to reverse ten plus, if not more, years of learned behavior and to actually earn money honestly.  Especially when earning money honestly gets you a fraction of what you used to earn slinging or burglarizing houses.  

If you take advantage of the free educational opportunities available in prison and are willing to accept the lower income of honest work then "going straight" is very possible.  It's far from easy and takes commitment, which is why so many former prisoners fail at it.

Quote:But there's no profit in people not going back to prison.

Not for publicly funded prisons.  Seeing as how the vast majority of prisons are publicly funded I'm not sure what point you think you're making here.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/mass-incarceration/private-prisons

Quote:According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, for-profit companies were responsible for approximately 7 percent of state prisoners and 18 percent of federal prisoners in 2015

Of course, I've railed against the "for profit" prison my entire career.  That doesn't mean that the "for profit" prison industry represents anything close to a statistically significant portion of prisons.  Unless your assertion is that public prisons are a huge windfall to state budgets, a point I'd be interested in seeing you try and make.

[GMDino]

(09-17-2018, 11:29 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Of course in many states actually getting sentenced to prison happens after numerous crimes and convictions or a very serious first conviction.  It's not uncommon at all for crimes as serious as robbery to be pled down to grand theft person with the defendant getting formal probation.  I can't speak for the rest of the nation, but if you go to prison in CA then you really deserved it.  As for "going straight" after your release, no it's not easy.  It's never easy to reverse ten plus, if not more, years of learned behavior and to actually earn money honestly.  Especially when earning money honestly gets you a fraction of what you used to earn slinging or burglarizing houses.  

If you take advantage of the free educational opportunities available in prison and are willing to accept the lower income of honest work then "going straight" is very possible.  It's far from easy and takes commitment, which is why so many former prisoners fail at it.

And in many cases it's the fines from the first arrest (as people who get arrested are more often lower on the economic scale) that lead to the multiple arrests. People pulled over for a taillight out who already owe for a ticket or fine, more fines, still no money to pay...and the cycle continues.

The article I linked showed the "lower" income average for ex-inmates...it's not just a matter of "accepting" it, it's a matter of trying to exist on it.

(09-17-2018, 11:29 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not for publicly funded prisons.  Seeing as how the vast majority of prisons are publicly funded I'm not sure what point you think you're making here.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/mass-incarceration/private-prisons

I'm making the point that prisons should not be for profit. Thought was pretty clear.

(09-17-2018, 11:29 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Of course, I've railed against the "for profit" prison my entire career.  That doesn't mean that the "for profit" prison industry represents anything close to a statistically significant portion of prisons.  Unless your assertion is that public prisons are a huge windfall to state budgets, a point I'd be interested in seeing you try and make.

Well as you have assumed wrong (again) I guess you don't get to have that pleasure or argument.

The point of my story of the conversation is that once you are in the system it is very hard to get out...there are multiple reasons for that including where most prisoners start from before they end up in prison...but having a system that compounds the fines, collection fees, etc only makes it harder.

We should, as a society, work at helping become contributing members of that society versus using their past indiscretions as way of self funding. IMHO

[Benton]

(09-17-2018, 10:53 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I've never liked court costs as that is your right, and yes the court costs on a speeding ticket you mail in are ridiculous.

(09-17-2018, 11:17 AM)Au165 Wrote: All of it should be done online with no costs other than the ticket if you choose to pay the fine. 

I'm fine with a processing fee. $10, $20, $25... whatever the breakdown is. I'm guessing it's 5-15 minutes worth of work for a clerk to enter the paperwork and bundle one check with the rest of the checks. When you factor in their wage, benefits, cost of the office... that's costing (depending on the city) well under $50... and nowhere near $143. 

Hell, in Kentucky $143 will pay your rent and put a fresh opossum in your pot.

[Dill]

(09-17-2018, 10:25 AM)GMDino Wrote: A couple weeks ago I had a conversation with a couple high school kids (our son is in the band) and one (half jokingly) said if we just killed everyone in jail with a life sentence there would be more money for college education for other people.

      He's a good kid, and he was (mostly) joking...I think.  lol. 

There might be "more money" indeed. But if people who control the "savings" therefrom find Chinese-style capital punishment attractive, how likely are they to be thinking of "college education for other people"?

This is rather like people who think cuts in defense spending can simply redound to infrastructure rather than, say, tax cuts for the rich.

[fredtoast]

Here is how it works a lot of places. Small misdemeanor results in little or no jail time but lots of fines, court costs, and probation supervision fees. When defendant can not pay the money they go to jail for violation of probation. So poor person and person with money commit same crime but only the poor person goes to jail for it.

I worked in Blount County Tennessee and they were one of the worst places for this. Many counties have work programs that allow people with no money to work off their fines or court costs, or at least they would give a person a hearing to determine if he was "willfully" failing to pay before they threw him in jail. But in Blount County it was just a clear cut rule. No pay go to jail.

So when the Blount County Jail became over crowded they ask the taxpayers to build a larger jail. The paid a huge chunk of money for a company to evaluate the needs and costs of a new jail and he report came back saying that Blount County should not be running a debtors prison. County commission tried to sweep the report under the rug but finally people started asking about what happened to the money they paid for study. Needless to say hey did not get a new jail.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-19-2018, 01:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is how it works a lot of places. Small misdemeanor results in little or no jail time but lots of fines, court costs, and probation supervision fees. When defendant can not pay the money they go to jail for violation of probation. So poor person and person with money commit same crime but only the poor person goes to jail for it.

I worked in Blount County Tennessee and they were one of the worst places for this. Many counties have work programs that allow people with no money to work off their fines or court costs, or at least they would give a person a hearing to determine if he was "willfully" failing to pay before they threw him in jail. But in Blount County it was just a clear cut rule. No pay go to jail.

So when the Blount County Jail became over crowded they ask the taxpayers to build a larger jail. The paid a huge chunk of money for a company to evaluate the needs and costs of a new jail and he report came back saying that Blount County should not be running a debtors prison. County commission tried to sweep the report under the rug but finally people started asking about what happened to the money they paid for study. Needless to say hey did not get a new jail.

Seems pretty stupid as you are not only not getting the money, but it’s costing you to jail them. I get it if someone has a history of getting in trouble and not paying, but you really should have an alternative.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-19-2018, 01:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is how it works a lot of places.  Small misdemeanor results in little or no jail time but lots of fines, court costs, and probation supervision fees.  When defendant can not pay the money they go to jail for violation of probation.  So poor person and person with money commit same crime but only the poor person goes to jail for it.

I worked in Blount County Tennessee and they were one of the worst places for this.  Many counties have work programs that allow people with no money to work off their fines or court costs, or at least they would give a person a hearing to determine if he was "willfully" failing to pay before they threw him in jail.  But in Blount County it was just a clear cut rule.  No pay go to jail.

So when the Blount County Jail became over crowded they ask the taxpayers to build a larger jail.  The paid a huge chunk of money for a company to evaluate the needs and costs of a new jail and he report came back saying that Blount County should not be running a debtors prison.  County commission tried to sweep the report under the rug but finally people started asking about what happened to the money they paid for study.  Needless to say hey did not get a new jail.

I can tell you for a fact that this is not the case in CA and we have a huge prison population.  Also, at no time in your post did you mention the word prison, which is the topic of the thread, not jail.  Lastly, I'd love to see what "a lot of places" is percentage wise because my understanding is that mandatory incarceration for failing to pay fees is far from the norm in this country.

[GMDino]

Posted last night by a friend who lives in MD but was in VA at the time:

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-20-2018, 07:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Posted last night by a friend who lives in MD but was in VA at the time:

He was written an inappropriate citation, based on the story as presented, i.e. traffic court is a money making scheme.  I'm not saying it is or is not, but this example doesn't make the case.