(03-30-2020, 10:22 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Let me quote comedian John Oliver on Twitter . . .

“Twitter is not where you go for facts; it’s where you go to see the official account of New Jersey tweet ‘gabagool,’ or Post Malone tweet ‘is meatball an fruit,’ or see Henry Winkler posting photos of him holding fish,” the comedian continued.

Public health officials don’t make policy decisions based upon tweets.

No one is saying public health official make public policy decisions based on Tweets. I said WHO now vs two months ago were saying two very different things, but have the audacity to criticize how others acted two months ago.

(03-30-2020, 11:02 PM)hollodero Wrote: Do you have any indication that they did possess such evidence at the time?

You sure act like you have. So what is it.

I don't know what evidence the have or had. What I do know is what WHO said 2 months ago vs now is much different, yet WHO wants to criticize countries for not preparing 2 months ago when WHO was saying we have no evidence this is even contagious person-toperson - let alone a pandemic - 2 months ago. 

(03-31-2020, 07:39 PM)6andcounting Wrote: No one is saying public health official make public policy decisions based on Tweets. I said WHO now vs two months ago were saying two very different things, but have the audacity to criticize how others acted two months ago.

It’s not the WHO two months vs now. It’s the WHO Jan 14th vs the WHO Jan 24th. Or 15 days after discovering a novel coronavirus they informed the world there was evidence of human to human transmission.

To restate, the WHO said they had evidence of human to human transmission over 2 months ago.

(03-27-2020, 07:02 PM)6andcounting Wrote: If there's no evidence it can be spread human-to-human, then of course countries will be ill prepared when it turns out it's highly contagious. The problem is - as GMD pointed out - there was ample evidence at that point in time it was contagious. WHO - a highly credible institution in this situation - announced Chinese propaganda that misled the world.

But now it WHO is complain countries didn't prepare quick enough. 

(03-30-2020, 07:14 PM)6andcounting Wrote: If they had evidence it can be spread person-to-person and didn't put it out there so that countries can make their own decision about preparing for the worst, I would say they screwed up. 

In those two posts, it seemed to me you were suggesting the WHO mislead countries on how to prepare for a pandemic. But, now you seem to be saying that tweet didn’t affect how countries prepared. So which is it? That tweet affected how countries prepared? Or that tweet didn’t affect how countries prepared? If it didn’t affect how countries prepared then why are people like Lou Dobbs and Florida Rebulican Senator Rick Scott complaining about the WHO informing the world that Covid-19 was spread via human to human transmission over 2 months ago?

(03-31-2020, 07:42 PM)6andcounting Wrote: I don't know what evidence the have or had. What I do know is what WHO said 2 months ago vs now is much different, yet WHO wants to criticize countries for not preparing 2 months ago when WHO was saying we have no evidence this is even contagious person-toperson - let alone a pandemic - 2 months ago. 

And over 2 months ago the WHO stated they had evidence it was spread through human to human transmission.

I wonder if having a Sec of Defense or Sec of the Navy (not acting) would make a difference?

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/03/31/theodore-roosevelt-captain-makes-urgent-plea-for-individual-quarantine-sites-as-covid-19-cases-multiply/?fbclid=IwAR1CKVD0T6Wr3jS-3j8oUdjrdiWgTQg6qSTy-vTrbEFLvdDJlE8dPTqxx8A

Quote:Theodore Roosevelt captain makes urgent plea for individual quarantine sites as COVID-19 cases multiply


The commanding officer of aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt is urging the Navy to step up its response to COVID-19 and secure individualized isolation for the ship’s crew as COVID-19 cases aboard the ship continue to multiply, according to a new report.

While most of the Roosevelt crew remains in cramped quarters aboard the carrier, a small percentage of sailors are starting to move into group quarantine sites on shore in Guam to limit the spread of the virus — and only one of these sites is in compliance with NAVADMIN guidance.

As a result, current efforts to combat COVID-19 are inadequate, according to the Roosevelt’s commanding officer Capt. Brett Crozier.

Crozier argued that the group quarantine sites would merely delay the spread of COVID-19 in a letter to Navy officials on Monday, obtained by the San Francisco Chronicle. Likewise, he noted that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Navy and Marine Corps Public Health Center advise against group quarantine, and instead suggest individual quarantine.

“Sailors do not need to die,” Crozier wrote in the letter. “If we do not act now, we are failing to properly take care of our most trusted asset — our Sailors.”


Crozier said the situation would be different in a time of conflict, because “in combat we are willing to take certain risks that are not acceptable in peacetime.”

“However, we are not at war, and therefore cannot allow a single Sailor to perish as a result of this pandemic unnecessarily,” Crozier wrote. “Decisive action is required now in order to comply with CDC and (Navy) guidance and prevent tragic outcomes.”

The Navy first announced on March 24 that three sailors aboard the carrier had tested positive for COVID-19, and Navy officials told Navy Times 40 sailors had tested positive for the virus as of Monday.

But those numbers could be much higher. An anonymous senior officer on the Roosevelt told the San Francisco Chronicle that as many as 200 sailors aboard the Roosevelt had tested positive for COVID-10.

According to Crozier, there are two options moving forward: either fail to achieve a COVID-19-free ship and “fight sick,” or strictly follow guidelines from the CDC to wipe out COVID-19 from the ship.


Under Crozier’s proposal, approximately 10 percent of the Roosevelt crew would remain on board to operate the reactor plant and sanitize the ship, among other things. The rest would be individually isolated off the ship.

“Removing the majority of personnel from a deployed U.S. nuclear aircraft carrier and isolating them for two weeks may seem like an extraordinary measure. ... This is a necessary risk,” Crozier wrote. “Keeping over 4,000 young men and women on board the TR is an unnecessary risk and breaks faith with those Sailors entrusted to our care.”

The Pacific Fleet did not respond to a request for comment from the San Francisco Chronicle before deadline, and did not immediately respond to a request for comment from Military Times.

In an interview with CBS News reporter Norah O’Donnell Tuesday night, Defense Secretary Mark Esper said he hadn’t read Crozier’s letter, but did not think the ship need to be evacuated. He added that tests and personal

Acting Secretary of the Navy Thomas said that the Navy “doesn’t disagree” with Crozier, and noted that the Navy has been working to remove sailors from the Roosevelt for days. But limited space in Guam is created some challenges, he said.


“The problem is that Guam doesn’t have enough beds right now, so we’re having to talk to the government there to see if we can get some hotel space, create some tent-type facilities there,” Modly said in an interview with CNN Tuesday.

Likewise, Modly stressed how detailed the process is to ensure that the carrier is sanitized correctly.

“The key is to make sure that we can get a set of crew members that can man all those critical functions on the ship, make sure they’re clean, get them back on, clean the ship, and get the other crew members off,” Modly said. “And that’s the process we’re going through. It’s very methodical. We’re absolutely accelerating it as we go.”

shot, chaser pic.twitter.com/nsgmRtt9O8

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) April 1, 2020

 

(03-31-2020, 07:42 PM)6andcounting Wrote: I don't know what evidence the have or had.

Well, then it's tough to go after them too hard, isn't it. You wouldn't want your three letter organizations to claim they have evidence for something when they in fact have not, right?

You base your whole harsh WHO critizism on some hunch, it seems. Also, you got your timetable wrong, as others pointed out. They said they have evidence; probably as soon as, you know, they had evidence.

If only your critical look and your readiness to see wrong would apply to each and every one though. Then I could think your just that guy. But tell me, while the WHO did so wrong, was it the time your president called covid a hoax, or was it the time it was to disappear in spring, or when it wasn't all that deadly altogether? Have you seen anything wrong with that, or were you too busy to be mad at the WHO for not claiming something you don't even know would have been true or not?

"Uncoordinated" coul be be the byline for the entire Trump administration.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/31/pence-task-force-coronavirus-aid-157806

Quote:Pence task force freezes coronavirus aid amid backlash
The review came after officials discovered that aid to foreign countries wasn't being coordinated with U.S. requests.


Last week, a Trump administration official working to secure much-needed protective gear for doctors and nurses in the United States had a startling encounter with counterparts in Thailand.


The official asked the Thais for help—only to be informed by the puzzled voices on the other side of the line that a U.S. shipment of the same supplies, the second of two so far, was already on its way to Bangkok.


Trump aides were alarmed when they learned of the exchange, and immediately put the shipment on hold while they ordered a review of U.S. aid procedures. Crossed wires would only confuse our allies, they worried, or worse—offend them. And Americans confronting a surging death toll and shortages of medical equipment back home would likely be outraged.


Vice President Mike Pence soon realized another step was needed: After a phone call asking a foreign leader’s help with key supplies, he ordered his staff to make sure the review process wasn’t holding up coronavirus-related aid to countries that were assisting the United States.


The incidents have spurred the Pence-led coronavirus task force to scrutinize all of USAID’s deliveries to countries requesting personal protective equipment (PPE) needed to fight the outbreak, according to people directly involved in the discussions, causing tensions between aid officials and task-force members.

The administration has also placed a moratorium on overseas shipments of USAID’s stockpiles of protective gear and is asking that the equipment be sent to the U.S. instead, other officials said.

The heightened scrutiny comes as American health care workers complain of severe shortages of masks, goggles and gloves amid a nationwide spike in coronavirus cases, and as Democrats rip the administration for shipping aid to other countries while vastly underestimating America’s own needs.


“Trump, you incompetent idiot! You sent 18 tons of PPE to China early but ignored warnings & called COVID19 concerns a hoax,” Rep. Maxine Waters (D-Calif.) tweeted on Monday, referring to 17.8 tons of medical supplies—including masks, gowns, gauze, and respirators—the U.S. delivered in February to help with the outbreak in China. “You’ve endangered doctors, nurses, aids [sic], orderlies, & janitors -- all risking their lives to save ours. Pray 4 forgiveness for the harm that you’re causing!”


Administration officials reject that criticism, noting that the supplies sent to China came from private donations, not the Strategic National Stockpile. And they explain that as they seek to balance domestic needs against diplomatic considerations, getting a better handle on which supplies are going where is vital.

“It’s a good thing that we're taking a holistic look at where and when we’re sending PPE as we're looking to fulfill needs here at home,” said Pence spokeswoman Katie Miller.


President Donald Trump seems attuned to the political hazards. During Monday’s task force briefing, he emphasized that the U.S. was sending only “things that we don’t need” to other countries. “We’re going to be sending approximately $100 million worth of things – of surgical and medical and hospital things to Italy,” he announced.


“The problem is, there’s not one person who’s in charge of this, which is why we’re instituting a review process that is led by the White House coronavirus task force,” a person directly involved with the review said.


Officials close to USAID say the ongoing review is more akin to a hold, as the task force examines the aid agency’s procurement of supplies and asks aid officials to alert them if there are other such shipments in the works.

“They’re really trying to walk a fine line between making sure Americans get everything they need and then starting to provide assistance elsewhere, and the vice president’s oversight is slowing down the decision-making process,” one person close to USAID said.


Aid officials, meanwhile, are being inundated with requests for information from multiple directorates at the White House, including questions about how to address the U.S. shortages of protective gear and details on countries’ capabilities to address the problem. USAID did not respond to multiple requests for comment.


“The idea is to figure out what is in short supply and how it compares to what USAID has overseas,” explained the official. 
“Given what’s happening in the United States and the shortage of critical supplies, it would be really difficult to be sending things abroad when we need them here at home.”
 
Democrats and Republicans across the country say they’re desperately trying to acquire masks, gloves and ventilators for the most at-risk health care workers in their districts as the president takes a hands-off approach.


Though some requests have already been processed and supplies were delivered, the review process has effectively frozen already-approved coronavirus-related PPE aid to at least 13 countries, including Vietnam, Bangladesh, Honduras and the Philippines. Nor have American officials been told how to explain to foreign counterparts why their countries’ requests have been put on hold, the administration official said. The danger, officials acknowledge, is that the delays risk damaging relationships with allies who could help the U.S. with critical supplies down the road.


“One of the big questions the task force is discussing is how foreign aid could help us when a second wave hits, whether that’s in the fall or later this summer,” said another person close to USAID. “Pence realizes you have to wait for the right time to provide assistance, but also that foreign assistance can help us as well.”


America’s diplomats are also grappling with China’s attempts to exploit the shortages by supplying aid to Western countries, keenly aware of Beijing’s interest in showing it is supplanting the United States as a global leader.


Just days before a load of medical supplies from China arrived in the U.S. for distribution in New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, the State Department boasted in a press release that the United States was “Leading the Humanitarian and Health Assistance Response to COVID-19.”

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo highlighted the aid in a press conference on Tuesday, noting, “We've now made available a total of $274 million in funding to as many as 64 countries,” money he said “would go to some of the world’s most at-risk peoples.”

In the last two months, at least five U.S. embassies, including in Myanmar, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Laos, all announced in press releases that the U.S. government had given protective gear to their host countries, sometimes including pictures of boxes of the donations. U.S. embassies in Kazakhstan, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mongolia, Nepal and Pakistan also announced support for fighting coronavirus.

There is bipartisan agreement on the need to resupply American hospitals and take care of domestic shortages first. But the issue is tricky: Other countries’ ability to fight the virus directly affects the U.S.—an infected man from Wuhan, the sprawling capital of Hubei province in China, is believed to be the first to bring the novel coronavirus to American shores in January—and millions of Americans work, serve, and study overseas in countries that have been hard hit.

“Our domestic response needs to be the priority, but the amount of aid offered internationally has been too slow and too small, risking the continued spread of the virus to Americans and to communities in countries with weaker infrastructure, immense poverty, and ongoing humanitarian crises,” said Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.), who is the ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations subcommittee on Africa and Global Health Policy.

Other Democrats have been more pointed -- and political -- in their criticism. Dan Pfeiffer, who was a senior White House adviser for President Barack Obama, tweeted over the weekend, “Trump sending two million masks to China weeks before COVID came to America because he didn’t take the threat seriously would be a devastating ad.”

U.S. officials openly promoted the China shipment at the time as evidence of the generosity of the American people. And privately, the administration still defends the February shipment as a reasonable decision at the time.

“That was kind of a different era,” said one of the Trump administration officials, “when there was not much of an appreciation of this hitting the United States.”

WHITE HOUSE
White House pressures FDA on unproven Japanese drug


But now, given the global shortage of critical medical supplies and U.S. health care workers’ daily pleas for more equipment, “the optics would look really terrible” if the U.S. government were to continue the overseas shipments, this official added.

The government has yet to curtail exports by U.S. companies, however—roughly 280 million masks in warehouses around the U.S. were purchased by foreign buyers on Monday alone, according to Forbes. A FEMA spokesperson said the agency “has not actively encouraged or discouraged U.S. companies from exporting overseas,” noting that various U.S. agencies are coordinating their activities with their overseas counterparts.


But FEMA is asking USAID to send back most of the reserves of protective gear it has stored in warehouses in Dubai and Miami for use in the U.S., according to one of the administration officials and a Senate Democratic foreign policy aide.



“What USAID is hoping for is that the market will improve in ways that they will be able to purchase additional PPE for restocking these warehouses or whatever the facilities are, relatively soon,” the aide said. “But obviously that’s aspirational and not based on any confidence at this point.”


A senior State Department official emphasized that the U.S. government is not providing countries with hard-to-find equipment that could be used to fight coronavirus in the United States instead.


“When it comes to PPE in particular, right now our assistance is not a zero-sum game,” the official said. “We are not providing assistance that could be headed to Detroit or to Kansas City. That’s not what we’re doing.”

The official added that the hold isn’t meant to be permanent. When industries “are able to ramp up and we have enough capacity here, we will absolutely shift as much of this stuff [as we can] around the world,” he said.

(03-31-2020, 01:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: As I told some people at work, a thief always thinks someone is stealing from him.

He's a crook...always has been.  So he's convinced everyone is a crook too because that's all he can imagine.

He's a worthless human being...always has been.

Yes.  In this case, Trump very likely is substituting his own motives and values for others. He lacks empathy and the ability to view problems from differing perspectives. That is not necessarily "projection," unless it is directly motivated by fear. (Could very well be though.)

Got to obliquely throw a little shade Hollo's way. "Projection," as the term is understood and used by psychologists and psychoanalysts, is quite useful for explaining some kinds of human behavior. Think of the rabidly and publicly anti-gay minister who is caught "pitching" in a public restroom. It is not intended to be a single-variable "wholistic" explanation. Dino's post though is not clearly describing "projection" in that sense.

Either way, Trump is demonstrating what we could see during his campaign--he simply lacks the capacity to look at a complicated problem, generate and rank order a set of potential solutions, and consider them from differing perspectives, while simultaneously processing and sorting advice from experts.  He will quickly overload on information and opt for a hunch. A "beautiful" or "great" hunch. If someone criticizes it, he will "punch back twice as hard" because he is a "fighter" and that's what the American people want in a leader--or 39% anyway. 

So that is the mess public health officials face behind the scenes in White House briefings, as Trump aids warn them, in whispers, to BE CAREFUL what they say and how.

I guess DJT was tweeting about Iran...I didn't see it...I wonder why.

Scoop: Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu shared with his cabinet a video he claimed was evidence of Iran concealing coronavirus deaths by dropping bodies in garbage dumps. Hours later, his office realized it was actually a clip from a 2007 Hallmark mini-serieshttps://t.co/IkTpIfzfOl

— Axios (@axios) April 1, 2020

 

Is this experiment over yet?

Hiring a "business" man may have had a chance if he was an effective, hardworking one. One he was a leader and not an egomaniac who wants surrounded by yesmen.

Maybe then we would have had someone willing to have people in place to understand the finer points of running a government...not a person who thinks if he cuts staff and he's "saving money" that's all he has to do.  Same person who has run multiple businesses into the ground with his out of control spending and lack of preparation.

Can we be done with this and get back to some normalcy?

Last summer, the Trump administration let the contract lapse with the firm maintaining the ventilator stockpile. Now, ventilators are reaching states in disrepair. https://t.co/sdogVnif99 @SangerNYT @KannoYoungs @nkulish

— Margot Sanger-Katz (@sangerkatz) April 1, 2020

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/pompeo-accuses-china-iran-and-russia-of-coronavirus-disinformation/ar-BB121Ih9

In an interview with Fox News, Trump inadvertently admits we spread disinformation; basically he admits he is a liar.

Quote:During his interview on Fox & Friends this week, Trump was asked about recent reports in The Washington Post of disinformation efforts by China, Iran, and Russia to blame the U.S. for causing the virus and attack its response.


Trump responded by criticizing The Washington Post and suggesting its reporting could not be trusted, and also that, regarding disinformation, "every country does it."

"They do it, and we do it, and we call them different things. I make statements that are very strong against China, including the Chinese virus, which has been going on for a long time, I wouldn't say they are thrilled with that statement," Trump said.

As anyone who has watched Trump talk about Covid-19 can tell you, Trump spreads disinformation. Even when Trump tells his supporters who watch Fox News that he spreads disinformation they still won’t admit the obvious truth.

Hey Goalpost can you rename this Trump Coronavirus, as there seems to be no other aspect worth discussing?

This place is becoming a joke.

DeWine deserves credit here in Ohio for shutting things down early. I think he was the 1st to shut down schools, on March 12th.

(04-02-2020, 12:51 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Hey Goalpost can you rename this Trump Coronavirus, as there seems to be no other aspect worth discussing?

This place is becoming a joke.

The "joke" is that the POTUS downplayed this for months and then lied and said he took it seriously before anyone else did.  On top of his complete lack of preparation, his shifting of the blame, his refusal to take responsibility at all for anything and his CONTINUED lack of leadership.

It is literally lasting longer, taking longer to control, and killing more people because of someone you don't think is worth discussing.

Other than that, yeah...talking about Trump's lack of response and is a "joke".

Just read Google...they don't allow ads criticizing Trump for his virus response.

But it's a free country...share something else "worth discussing".  That would be a fine path to take.

(04-02-2020, 12:51 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Hey Goalpost can you rename this Trump Coronavirus, as there seems to be no other aspect worth discussing?

This place is becoming a joke.

Let me guess, you’re one of these “it’s another partisan attack of our duly elected President” types?

A little FYI . . . It’s far more of a partisan defense of a buffoon than it is a coordinated attack on a lifelong Democrat that hijacked the Republican Party.

23 pages in and he’s shocked that Trump is getting blamed for his pathetic response to a disaster. Well, be my guest to bring up something else Coronavirus related that doesn’t deal with Drumpf’s obvious deficiencies or mistakes.

(04-02-2020, 01:10 PM)Goalpost Wrote: DeWine deserves credit here in Ohio for shutting things down early.  I think he was the 1st to shut down schools, on March 12th.

He just got his last extension.  If he tries for a third there are going to be some problems.

(04-02-2020, 12:51 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Hey Goalpost can you rename this Trump Coronavirus, as there seems to be no other aspect worth discussing?

This place is becoming a joke.

A political forum gets wacky after we make a veritable cartoon villain our president?  Amazing. 

Honestly, I expected we'd elect Hulk Hogan before Trump but I wager a more boring political climate will he back eventually. 

(04-02-2020, 01:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: A political forum gets wacky after we make a veritable cartoon villain our president?  Amazing. 

Honestly, I expected we'd elect Hulk Hogan before Trump but I wager a more boring political climate will he back eventually. 

I keep seeing memes and talk of this Joe Exotic fellow running for office.  That would be real funny before 2016 or so.  After electing someone as cartoonishly absurd as Trump, nothing world surprise me, not even that.  Political nihilists are excellent at turnout.

(04-02-2020, 02:33 PM)samhain Wrote: I keep seeing memes and talk of this Joe Exotic fellow running for office.  That would be real funny before 2016 or so.  After electing someone as cartoonishly absurd as Trump, nothing world surprise me, not even that.  Political nihilists are excellent at turnout.

I'd vote for a gay libertarian nut who can govern from inside a prison if he made his running mate an actual tiger.